[amphibian]

Ulrik, on 04 November 2009 - 08:52 PM, said:

I think its clear that Gudd isnt Stormrider. He says something like "look like that stormrider crap works"...well, it doesnt sound like someone familiar with Stormrider culture;)

This would be a really nice time to dig up the exact quote. Malaclypse has a point about people saying stuff too off-handed lately.

I'll do it in a bit, if you haven't.

Quote

Frost glistened from his entire body now, and ice had spread thick as armour to encase the horse beneath him. It was already dead, he knew, but the ice knew to answer his commands. […]

He held the Stormrider sword as if it was an extension of his forearm – ice had crept up to his shoulder, gleaming yet flowing as would water.

Seeing the first line of the nearest phalanx level their bizarre clubs, Ruthan Gudd gritted his teeth. This Stormrider crap had better work. But gods below, it does hurt to wear. He wheeled his mount to face the Nah’ruk, and then raised high his sword.

This post has been edited by amphibian: 05 November 2009 - 12:24 AM

[Ulrik]

Thanks mate, my book is cca 200km from me, so my quote fu is badly mauled...

[Traveller]

He seems way more than a Stormrider. But he's using their weapons and armour, so he's obviously had close dealings with them, which means he must be someone powerful.

Also, he was trapped in an Azath for who knows how long, managed to escape as it died, and he seems to know Draconus pretty well...

[Aooga]

Abyss, on 04 November 2009 - 08:16 PM, said:

Aooga, on 04 November 2009 - 07:49 PM, said:

- What ritual are the FA preparing in Kolanse?

Uncertain but whatever it is the CG is involved and its bad. probably some way to free him.

Ok but what makes you think they are preparing a ritual in the first place?

Quote

Quote

- the whole sea of light at the first shore and the blah blah on the Shake legends went over my head. Edur came from the Shake who came from where and what were they doing at the First shore?

The Andii in Kurald Galain were riven with civil war, then the Liosan showed up and started killing them. One group of part-blood Andii slaves escaped to become the Shake. I think.

And how do the Edut figure into this? What was it the Watch said? something like the Edur were our first beget?

Quote

Quote

- Is Iccy dead or will he now be the guardian of the Azath? Is it even a new Azath or what?

It is a new Azath but iccy's status is anyone's guess.

ok...some guess work after further reflection.
Since Sulkit is still alive and 'evolving' and inside the Ampelas unrooted, which is now probably the Ampelas House(?) I think he/she is the new Guardian. As Azath's freeze time then I'd say that unless Icarium wasn't killed clean then he's in limbo somewhere in the house or his soul is now trapped inside the finnest much like Scabandari's and Raet's was at one point. Also raises the question that can a finnest sprout an Azath and hold a soul at the same time or is the soul released (like Raest) or destoryed (like Scabandari) upon creation of the Azath?
Imagine Sulkit as matron/guardian...potentially perfect setup for a KCCM. she could make a deal with the Azath to let her offspring out of the Azath whenever she spawns and she'll never go insane as time is frozen....crazy random theorising all this.

Quote

Quote

- When the Akryianni princess and her handmaiden are talking about how they can get a message across to the queen a chain appears in the smoke as an omen. (sorry for lack of quote fu so will instead employ The Force). what's the chain omen gotta do with summoning Mael?

Good question.

I'm thinking maybe because of their close proximity to Kolanse and the CG the implication was that maybe all lines are tapped...?

Quote

The war was the Jaghut Crusade against Death, mentioned in TtH.

I remember that but don't get it. how do you war against Death? was Death an Elder God that the Jaghut army defeated and their victorious general Hood took over as Lord of Death and somehow left his army hand out to dry, which is why he now has to make amends?


More questions:

- So...I gues the Cripple God's name is Kaminsod?
- We now know that he didn't fall all in one big chunk but pieces scattered across the world. So then every chaining could have one of his 'pieces' being located and chained? going by decimation of Kallor's empire (imperial warren) and the fact that the largest piece fell in the east one could assume that the Wastelands were created by the fall of that one big piece?

- ANy theories on what Edgewalker and Osserc are up to?

[Hetan]

Abyss, on 04 November 2009 - 07:39 PM, said:

Midnight Tides, mmpb p 98

I've pasted the quote here :-

'The Elder gods loosed the blood in their veins. The dragons spawned a child of indescribable terror, to seek out and hunt down Scandabari Bloodeye. Father Shadow was brought down. An Elder god named Kilmandaros shattered his skull. Then they made for Bloodeye's spirit a prison of eternal pain, of agony beyond measure, to last until the Abyss itself is devoured'

Abyss said:

So... while admittedly everything any Edur says about history is questionable, the part about Kila crushing Scabby's head is correct. which suggests that befor eshe did that, some terrible child of the dragons hunted him down and softened him up.

I will say again - the child of indescribable terror is an Edur myth.
There is no mention anywhere else in the books, to indicate that any others were involved in this incident apart from Gothos, Mael and Kilmandaros.
I suggest a re-read of the prolgue to Reaper's Gale which describes in detail what happens during the bringing down of Scabandari Bloodeye.





-

[chaosek]

Could this child of indescribable terror be the oratal dragon?

[Hetan]

Aooga said:

ok...some guess work after further reflection.
Since Sulkit is still alive and 'evolving' and inside the Ampelas unrooted, which is now probably the Ampelas House(?) I think he/she is the new Guardian. As Azath's freeze time then I'd say that unless Icarium wasn't killed clean then he's in limbo somewhere in the house or his soul is now trapped inside the finnest much like Scabandari's and Raet's was at one point. Also raises the question that can a finnest sprout an Azath and hold a soul at the same time or is the soul released (like Raest) or destoryed (like Scabandari) upon creation of the Azath?
Imagine Sulkit as matron/guardian...potentially perfect setup for a KCCM. she could make a deal with the Azath to let her offspring out of the Azath whenever she spawns and she'll never go insane as time is frozen....crazy random theorising all this.

I'm kinda wondering if Iccy is in fact toast or has he become the occupant of the Azath in the way that Raest did?
Mappo says he is gone, but that's not quite the same thing.

I would think it's a good possibility that this Azath house could be aspected to the K'Chain - giving them a House of their own and thereby a level playing field - after all there is a Destriant, a Mortal Sword and a Shield Anvil and now another matron.

[Abyss]

[quote name='Traveller' date='05 November 2009 - 03:02 AM' timestamp='1257408153' post='697904']
He seems way more than a Stormrider. But he's using their weapons and armour, so he's obviously had close dealings with them, which means he must be someone powerful.

Also, he was trapped in an Azath for who knows how long, managed to escape as it died, and he seems to know Draconus pretty well...
[/quote]

and to go one further, in thinking about Draconus, he internal monologues something like 'next time we meet, one of us is going to kill the other'... suggesting, unless he's being ironic, that he could kill Drac'.

[quote name='Aooga' date='05 November 2009 - 03:51 AM' timestamp='1257411096' post='697919']
[quote name='Abyss' date='05 November 2009 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1257365778' post='697710']
[quote name='Aooga' date='04 November 2009 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1257364146' post='697691']
- What ritual are the FA preparing in Kolanse? [/quote]

Uncertain but whatever it is the CG is involved and its bad. probably some way to free him.
[/quote]

Ok but what makes you think they are preparing a ritual in the first place? [/quote]

The book tells us so.

[quote]
[quote]- the whole sea of light at the first shore and the blah blah on the Shake legends went over my head. Edur came from the Shake who came from where and what were they doing at the First shore?[/quote]

The Andii in Kurald Galain were riven with civil war, then the Liosan showed up and started killing them. One group of part-blood Andii slaves escaped to become the Shake. I think. [/quote]

And how do the Edut figure into this? What was it the Watch said? something like the Edur were our first beget? [/quote]

At some point various Tiste refugees joined the Shake and bred in. Other than that it seems to Edur had their own conflicts with the Andii but it wasn't one of those that led to the Shake exile.

[quote]
[quote]- Is Iccy dead or will he now be the guardian of the Azath? Is it even a new Azath or what?[/quote]

It is a new Azath but iccy's status is anyone's guess.
[/quote]

ok...some guess work after further reflection.
Since Sulkit is still alive and 'evolving' and inside the Ampelas unrooted, which is now probably the Ampelas House(?) I think he/she is the new Guardian. As Azath's freeze time then I'd say that unless Icarium wasn't killed clean then he's in limbo somewhere in the house or his soul is now trapped inside the finnest much like Scabandari's and Raet's was at one point. Also raises the question that can a finnest sprout an Azath and hold a soul at the same time or is the soul released (like Raest) or destoryed (like Scabandari) upon creation of the Azath?
Imagine Sulkit as matron/guardian...potentially perfect setup for a KCCM. she could make a deal with the Azath to let her offspring out of the Azath whenever she spawns and she'll never go insane as time is frozen....crazy random theorising all this. [/quote]

Ampelas Uprooted is now wrapped into the big stone tree Azath so whether it's Ampelas House or Wasteland House or something else altogether, there it is. And i'm wondering whether it exists in the Imperial Warren too, since it closed the Nah'ruk's massive gate to that warren.

I do not think Sulkit is a guardian, but if she is, that opens a pretty interesting line of thought, because in theory, every KC that she hatches may also be serving the Azath... now picture an entire clan/race/city of Kchain Che'malle allied to the (generally incompetent tho they have their moments) Nameless Ones...

Iccy... there are so many possibilities here... he could have ascended into godhood, he could be immensely powerful but even less sane, he could be imprisoned by the Azath, he could be a new Guardian, he could be wandering somewhere yet again without the seven or eight stray ghost personalities in his head... it bears mention that Gothos, Iccy's dad, plays a significant role with the Azath. Read TtH a certain way and it seems he actually sends them out into the world. if so, Gothos would have known Iccy was on the scene and may have taken steps.

You're assuming Scabby's soul was obliterated. We don't know that. For that matter, we don't know that Kettle was either. Remember Raest's finnest that triggered Finnest House in darujhistan contained Raest's power, not his soul. We know that the Scabby/knife/finnest had his soul in it, and we know that Kettle had at least two souls in her, but, in theory at least, while their power could have triggered the Refugium House, we don't know that their souls were destroyed. I wouldn't be shocked to see someone pass thru the Refugium House at some point and encounter a bitter draconic soletaken edur putting up with a little girl.



[quote]
[quote]- When the Akryianni princess and her handmaiden are talking about how they can get a message across to the queen a chain appears in the smoke as an omen. (sorry for lack of quote fu so will instead employ The Force). what's the chain omen gotta do with summoning Mael?[/quote]

Good question.
[/quote]
I'm thinking maybe because of their close proximity to Kolanse and the CG the implication was that maybe all lines are tapped...? [/quote]

It's as good an explanation as i can come up with.

[quote]
The war was the Jaghut Crusade against Death, mentioned in TtH.
[/quote]
I remember that but don't get it. how do you war against Death? was Death an Elder God that the Jaghut army defeated and their victorious general Hood took over as Lord of Death and somehow left his army hand out to dry, which is why he now has to make amends? [/quote]

It's unclear but it appears that the Jaghut went to war against death as a 'concept', and death fought back with an army of dead things. The Jaghut couldn't win, but somehow their leader managed to ascend to some form of 'gatekeeper' role, enforcing an afterlife on death where before there was nothing. But the war destroyed the Jaghut as a race and they really didn't gain much from it, hence Hood asking for forgiveness from his last surviving soldiers.


[quote]
More questions:[/quote]

More answers! (or not!)

- So...I gues the Cripple God's name is Kaminsod?
- We now know that he didn't fall all in one big chunk but pieces scattered across the world. So then every chaining could have one of his 'pieces' being located and chained? going by decimation of Kallor's empire (imperial warren) and the fact that the largest piece fell in the east one could assume that the Wastelands were created by the fall of that one big piece?[/quote]

Yep yep and yep. Tho the various Chainings thru the millenis probably took place in whatever warren he was accessible thru, as opposed to wherever any given chunk physically was. we've seen him sitting in his pocket warrens being evil.

[quote]- ANy theories on what Edgewalker and Osserc are up to?
[/quote]

Edgy is still guarding Shadow, tho the TtH prologue suggests another role was being offered to him. i had figured Hood's, but DoD seemed to have the bridgeburners in that role in some fashion.

Osserc... unknown but whatever it is i'm sure it's pretentious.

[quote name='Hetan' date='05 November 2009 - 05:22 AM' timestamp='1257416543' post='697940']
...I will say again - the child of indescribable terror is an Edur myth.
There is no mention anywhere else in the books, to indicate that any others were involved in this incident apart from Gothos, Mael and Kilmandaros.
I suggest a re-read of the prolgue to Reaper's Gale which describes in detail what happens during the bringing down of Scabandari Bloodeye.
[/quote]

Actually, the RG prologue shows us what happens at the point when Scabby is already beaten. we don't know what happened up to that point and Mael, kila and Gothos don't tell us.

Put another way, why would Fear have said that at all. Every Edur myth, however false, has been derived from some small bit of truth.

[quote name='Hetan' date='05 November 2009 - 07:52 AM' timestamp='1257425539' post='697966']
...I would think it's a good possibility that this Azath house could be aspected to the K'Chain - giving them a House of their own and thereby a level playing field - after all there is a Destriant, a Mortal Sword and a Shield Anvil and now another matron.
[/quote]

Yep. Lizard House!

But the other possibility is that that particular clan of the KC is now aspected to the Azath. After all, it was Gunth Mach's clan that have the MS/D/SA, not Sulkits.


- Abyss, in da House...

[Traveller]

In regard to the survival of those caught within the Azath, Silchas Ruin suggests to Rud Elalle that Kettle is still 'alive, perhaps more than ever before... but young, and vulnerable' as part of the azath -
which is one of the reasons Udinaas had for wishing to protect it.

And, going back to Ruthan Gudd - I don't think he was being ironic when he said that only one of them would walk away if he found Draconus. Who the hell is he?!

He's got to be another big bad Ascendant, and surely wasn't wasted by those Nah'ruk.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 05 November 2009 - 04:32 PM

[Abyss]

Traveller, on 05 November 2009 - 04:32 PM, said:

In regard to the survival of those caught within the Azath, Silchas Ruin suggests to Rud Elalle that Kettle is still 'alive, perhaps more than ever before... but young, and vulnerable' as part of the azath -
which is one of the reasons Udinaas had for wishing to protect it.

And, going back to Ruthan Gudd - I don't think he was being ironic when he said that only one of them would walk away if he found Draconus. Who the hell is he?!

He's got to be another big bad Ascendant, and surely wasn't wasted by those Nah'ruk.

It's not rediculous to think that Gudd (and QB for that matter) had last second 'teleport out' saves, tho QB went out with a big kaboom, while the last we see of Gudd he's being swarmed over by KN. Still, if he's powerful enough, bodies are optional.

His whole charge thing would actually seem less logical if it was a suicide charge - he didn't seem to care THAT much about the soldiers, so a heroic sacrifice seems out of character, while a brave charge that he wil survive, however badly it ends, makes more sense, at least to me. Bummer about Keneb tho.

- Abyss, notes being Keneb'd is mildly cooler than being Ranal'd but not quite as impressive as a good Hedge...

[Traveller]

Same with Bottle - I know QB was somewhat busy saving his own backside, but he had that heap of dolls earlier, and told Bottle he would be able to 'pull him back.'

I still like the hint that the new stone Azath holding the fortress remains resembles the sigil of the malaz empire - that's how I interpreted it, anyway (might make a good picture!). Monumental Malaz sigil in the wastelands would be cool, even better if it does encompass the gate to the imperial warren as well.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 05 November 2009 - 04:49 PM

[champ]

A lil side track from the current discussion but have we learnt anything at all about QB's acorns or what it could be linked to or any theorys on them? just thought it a coincidence that Raests powers were stored in a acorn shaped finnest!

could each one represent one of his warrens? and am i write in thinking that he whispers to them before attacking the Nahruk in DoD

[Sinisdar Toste]

just a small thing i have to point out, ampelas uprooted is not in the azath tree, thats kalse uprooted. as far as i remember, ampelas uprooted turned upside down and ... crashed? or maybe just floated away

[Lister of Smeg]

Another interesting little tidbit about Ruthan Gudd - when he was put in the Azath, he was going after Kallor, against Draconus's advice.

I've gone through the Kallor parts of MoI (including the prologue) and he doesn't mention anything there, but it's possible he thinks about a man attacking him during his long walk in TtH? My memory's a little fuzzy on that book.

[amphibian]

champooon, on 05 November 2009 - 04:49 PM, said:

A lil side track from the current discussion but have we learnt anything at all about QB's acorns or what it could be linked to or any theorys on them? just thought it a coincidence that Raests powers were stored in a acorn shaped finnest!

could each one represent one of his warrens? and am i write in thinking that he whispers to them before attacking the Nahruk in DoD

My theory is that each acorn is an anchor for one of his individual souls. And that he tossed one onto the Nah'ruk skykeeps way back in Bonehunters and left the soul there to observe the entire time.

[Ulrik]

Arent acorns used to contact his mates?
In HoC thru one arrives QB to kalam dealing with kamist Reloe and I think that in DoD thru another is Fiddler warned. But I do not have book here, so...

[lobo the wolfman]

Just wanna add a few things to the discussion here,

QB seems to use acorns and stones for a number of things, allowing his friends to summon him (Kalam in DG, HOC and TBH) tracking some one (the artist is MOI, Menendore in RG), and as a beacon to a location (the caverns of Burn in MOI) so he could very easily had a recall spell ready to save himself.

I always thought that Kettle was the Eres child from Varalecks Gral stories. The one that was saved by the Master of the Hounds, back in the days of the First Empire. My theory is that Held from the snake kids is Tulls child, no facts to back this up, just a idea.

Like Chosek said, could not the 'child of indescribable terror' just be the OD. We have no clear idea when she crucified, and even thou she isn't just around to kill him, maybe she was used in taking Bloodeye down first and then later get nailed up.

Just a crazy thought could Gudd be the 'misguided sibling' that Envy was talking about in regards to Baaljogg and one of the Wolf Gods in MOI?

[Hetan]

Traveller, on 05 November 2009 - 04:48 PM, said:

I still like the hint that the new stone Azath holding the fortress remains resembles the sigil of the malaz empire - that's how I interpreted it, anyway (might make a good picture!). Monumental Malaz sigil in the wastelands would be cool, even better if it does encompass the gate to the imperial warren as well.

I would really like to see this image

[Traveller]

(I am looking at doing some DoD pics - that battle at the end is just mind-blowingly awesome).

This post has been edited by Traveller: 07 November 2009 - 08:30 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

Traveller, on 07 November 2009 - 07:01 PM, said:

(I am looking at doing some DoD pics - that battle at the end is just mind-blowingly awesome).

awwwwwwwwwwww yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaahh

this is the most exciting thing i've heard all week