[MTS]

Yes. It's when Fiddler and Bottle et al. are discussing how Gesler and Stormy could have gotten abducted. I've transcribed it here, pp. 783-84:

'This is K'Chain Che'Malle.'
'They ain't got wings,' objected Fiddler.
But Quick Ben was squinting skyward. Under his breath he said,
'Some do.'
...
'All right. They're alive. I know that much.'
'Close by?'
'No. A Shi'gal Assassin can fly two hundred leagues in a single night.'
A what? Never mind. 'Why those two?'
'No idea-'
'I hear the Adjunct's a damned dragon herself these days-'
'Fine. I figure someone needed them.'
'A shigral assassin K'Chain Che'Malle needed Gesler and Stormy?'
'Shi'gal. But they don't go rogue, not this way, anyway. Meaning it was sent. To find them.'
'Sent by who?'
Quick Ben licked his lips. 'A Matron, obviously.'
'A Matron? A K'Chain Che'Malle Matron? A real live breathing K'Chain Che'Malle Matron?'
'Keep it down, will you? People are looking. We can-'
Fiddler's helm caught the High Mage flush on the side of his head.

Quick knows an awful lot about the Shi'gal that he couldn't possibly have gleaned in a month, if wings and more eyes are a new innovation among the Shi'gal. Perhaps he saw it in one of his questings, but I'm sceptical, to be honest. Although it seems just as unlikely that other Shi'gal in the past have had these upgrades, whereas Gu'Rull hasn't, considering his exemplary track record. Perhaps Shi'gal can grow their own wings? K'Chain seem to be able to elongate their forms, like Gunth Mach and the Ve'Gath mounts, so perhaps Gu'Rull made the wings out of need? He says he hadn't left Ampelas Rooted in a long while, after all.

[Sinisdar Toste]

yeah i find it hard to believe that there have never been flying Shi'gal before. of the hundreds of matrons that once existed, at least one would have thought of it, you'd think.

[Abyss]

It's not hard to explain away. Shi'gal can grow or ungrow wings at need and the real innovation from the Matron was the second set of eyes.

OR Arcyl re-discovered something previous Matron's had done before and QB, being QB, knew about those previous efforts. His knowledge is pretty specific after all.. 200 leagues etc etc.

But that brings us back to the fact that it could have been a Shi'gal Karsa fought, because they don't all have wings all the time.


- Abyss, winging it.

[MTS]

The fact it had nanobots in its stomach and did not have talons that could cleave a human being from shoulder to hip kinda convince me that it wasn't a Shi'gal though, Abyss.

[Abyss]

Actually the one in HoC has technoworms in its stomach. We see that the KChain have some form of nanobot in DoD - they create Shulkit.

Anyrate, it's just a theory and not one i'm wedded to. It could as easily have been some bigger form of KN.



- Abyss, thought technoworm was a breakdancing move...

[MTS]

Good point about the nanobots, I forgot about those in DoD.

One thing confuses me about the Shi'gal though. In the prologue, it's stated their flavour is anathema to each other, and thus prevents any form of alliance. How then can the two unnamed Shi'gal in Ampelas Rooted form an alliance and zombify Acyl's braaaaaaiiiinnnnzzz?

Oh, and that whole flying fortress thing came way out of left field for me. Flying machinery seemed a province of the Nah'Ruk, not the Che'Malle, as did the nanobots.

[Sinisdar Toste]

well, when it is realized by gunth mach that the remaining two shegulls had allied, doesn't she convey it as "the unthinkable has happened" or something like that? as though it were without precedent

[Ulrik]

What if simply Ampelas assassins in the Rooted isolation forbid/ forgot/ simply didnt need wings and Gu´Rull was first after generations to evolve them again.

Edit: Damn ,I forgot not wings, but refresh...so its ad debate "how Quick know about wings"

This post has been edited by Ulrik: 23 September 2009 - 10:56 PM

[Abyss]

The situation in Ampelas was unusual, the Matron was insane, and there were 2 shigal instead of the traditional three. Acyl broke any number of traditions and rules, and Gurull's pov showed us shigal were capable of some independence. hence, brianz buffet.

Tho notice they still stuck around for the fight against the Nahruk.

- Abyss, thought the dragon cities were awesome.

[MTS]

Such an alliance should not even be anatomically possible though. Surely if their flavours are anethema, even an alliance between two should be impossible, unless it is the combination of all three that is so off-putting.

They were awesome Abyss, no doubt, but I just didn't expect it. The Shi'gal was not expected at all, but fit better with my previous view of them. By far the coolest thing to come out of DoD as well.

[Paran]

That the K'Chain worshipped dragons would indicate that they would shape themselves on that template, so I believe that the flying would definitely have happened before. I believe it was the eyes that were the new addition by the Matron.

[blackzoid]

Gah!
Its another case of SE, god bless his soul, needing a good edit after finishing one of his books.
If as he specifically stated, the Shi'gal's flavours are anethema, than no alliance should be possible.
All that was required to fix it, was to say that one of the 2 Sh'gal left behind, killed the other and then the survivor ate the brain of the Matron. That would make a lot more sense.

Oh and Abyss, the KCNR that Karsa fought was in TBH, not HoC. Samar discovers the nanobots in the corpse when she disscts it.

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

No alliance should be possible when there's three of them... Which there weren't. *hide*

[Ulrik]

Well, everything doesn run thru set of inpenetrable rules, these two Shigals simply made a deal and ate the Matron. Not first and not last time individuals in MBoF act differently than official code of behaviour says

[blackzoid]

Ulrik, on 24 September 2009 - 10:34 AM, said:

Well, everything doesn run thru set of inpenetrable rules, these two Shigals simply made a deal and ate the Matron. Not first and not last time individuals in MBoF act differently than official code of behaviour says

The impression I got from the prologue, was that a Shigal's "flavour" is something implicit to their nature.
Its in their design and could not be overridden by conscious will-power. So 2 Shigal could never be in the same place without attacking each other. Otherwise why would Gu'Rull have killed 7 other Shigal in his life? Unless they all wanted to kill the Matron for some reason?

[Illuyankas]

3 Shigals = two cannot temporarily ally because of their fear of the third, and one can't trust either of the other two due to what the other might do. Remove the third balancing Shigal, and Brood's your uncle. Granted, your seedy uncle always wearing a raincoat and smirking at teenagers, but still.

[Bhurnae]

I'm with the chickens argument......

[Abyss]

blackzoid, on 24 September 2009 - 10:05 AM, said:

...Oh and Abyss, the KCNR that Karsa fought was in TBH, not HoC...

Correction acknowledged.

blackzoid, on 24 September 2009 - 11:01 AM, said:

Ulrik, on 24 September 2009 - 10:34 AM, said:

Well, everything doesn run thru set of inpenetrable rules, these two Shigals simply made a deal and ate the Matron. Not first and not last time individuals in MBoF act differently than official code of behaviour says

The impression I got from the prologue, was that a Shigal's "flavour" is something implicit to their nature.
Its in their design and could not be overridden by conscious will-power. So 2 Shigal could never be in the same place without attacking each other. Otherwise why would Gu'Rull have killed 7 other Shigal in his life? Unless they all wanted to kill the Matron for some reason?

I suspect the only important point is that these were unusual circumstances. If Gurull had fight seven shigal in his life, then clearly shigal are known to break the rules.

Btw, it's kind of funny that people are treating Gurull as this awesome new uber character but overlooking that he killed a bunch of Barghast including the not-abusing-Hetan warrior women and most of the Trygalle along with a good go at Gruntle and Mappo. He spent most of the book counting down to killing Kalyth, Chag and Gunth. He is NOT a nice lizard.


Relatedly, anyone think we are to assume that the KN used the power from killing Sorric (seen in TB) to open the gate from the IW?


- Abyss, bets shi'gal make great diplomats...

[Epiph]

Abyss, on 24 September 2009 - 02:22 PM, said:

Relatedly, anyone think we are to assume that the KN used the power from killing Sorric (seen in TB) to open the gate from the IW?

Are we sure she was killed by KN? There seems to be some contention that she was killed by Edur.

[Sinisdar Toste]

and doesn't the blood of the dragon from the prologue get used to open the gate? there is a KN in that scene reeking of smugness too.