Malazan Empire: Who the hell is Ruthan Gudd? - Malazan Empire

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Who the hell is Ruthan Gudd? For those who have finished DoD only Rate Topic: -----

#141 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:04 PM

View Postmasan, on 23 October 2009 - 09:32 PM, said:

Hmmm, somebody with better knowledge than me would be able to list all the warrens that QB can access.

However, based on the wording "blackening..midnight limbed....wraith" and the fact that on other occasions when it has been unveiled in the books it has been described as cold or icy, one could argue that QB is using Kurald Galain and Mockra. Which is interesting considering his "new" role in High House Dark.

Has QB ever accessed Omtose Phellack, I can't remember.


I don't believe that QB has ever accessed Omtose Phellack. However that doesn't really mean that he can't. We know that if someone can access any of the warrens around a particular warren then they can access all of them. That is how the Imass were able to hunt the Jughuts after all. The only time that we see QB around Omtose is when he and Paran take the Seer and his sister to live with Burn and Omtose is fully revealed. Since QB didn't want any paths back to Burn he told Paran to take them from there.
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#142 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 10:06 PM

View PostVengeance, on 23 December 2009 - 09:04 PM, said:

View Postmasan, on 23 October 2009 - 09:32 PM, said:

Hmmm, somebody with better knowledge than me would be able to list all the warrens that QB can access.

However, based on the wording "blackening..midnight limbed....wraith" and the fact that on other occasions when it has been unveiled in the books it has been described as cold or icy, one could argue that QB is using Kurald Galain and Mockra. Which is interesting considering his "new" role in High House Dark.

Has QB ever accessed Omtose Phellack, I can't remember.


I don't believe that QB has ever accessed Omtose Phellack. However that doesn't really mean that he can't. We know that if someone can access any of the warrens around a particular warren then they can access all of them. That is how the Imass were able to hunt the Jughuts after all. The only time that we see QB around Omtose is when he and Paran take the Seer and his sister to live with Burn and Omtose is fully revealed. Since QB didn't want any paths back to Burn he told Paran to take them from there.


One of the souls in QB is a Jhag half blood so it is possible he could have access to OP.

Ruthan Gudd is an ascendant and the most likely candidate its Grizzin Farl, but to be honest, I'm happy to wait and find out because I know I'm not going to be disappointed :p
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#143 User is offline   Edonidd 

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Posted 26 December 2009 - 11:47 PM

I usually just read the forum on my phone, and for some reason I can't get this forum to work on it, but I felt I needed to join in on this converstation. There is way too much conjecture required to actually figure out who Gudd is, but we might be able to peel back some of the options a bit.

I have been trying to figure out who "She" is, as in ; "She answers, as she has never answered before"

Looking at the situation, she obviously has to be somebody with enough power to impress somebody thousands of years old, that narrows the list of possibilities down to a few handfuls that we are aware of. And because of how she answers (with ice, turning him into a stormrider basically) we can narrow that list down quite a bit further. Then we should even be able to narrow it down still further by the fact that she is answering differently or stronger than ever before.

To my mind that leaves us about 4 possibilities of powerful females that could help him and do it in that way. From least likely to most IMO.

5. A random Jaghut - there were several females one of who was even in the area recently to help trap a demon in ice in a lake.

4. Queen of dreams - We haven't seen to much of her, but we do know she is a powerful mage, and friend with the master planner Rake, and as a God is probably involved in this whole mess somehow, maybe Gudd is her main piece besides Leoman and she answers stronger than before because it is needed.

3. Mother Dark - She would obviously be answering stronger now than previously as she is no longer turned away. Ice is right up her alley with what we saw Draconus's sword of darkness do, plus the cold feeling of her gate in dragnipur.

2. A random TA mentioned as a rival to Rake, Ruin, Andarist, etc. - This is slightly more likely than MD herself, just because MD has been turned away for so long, that Gudd most likely isn't old enough to ever have had her respond before. There were several other TA's mentioned by name in TtH, several of whom were female, and I don't think we ever learned the fate of any of them. one group could have made landing on Assail or Jacaruku and not denied her followers like Rake did. As my previous reasoning went, she would be able to respond more strongly now with MD paying attention again, and ice is right up KG's alley.

1. Burn - Greymane and Ruthan Gudd go back quite a ways. Greymane is by all appearances involved somehow with Burn,and has a special Burn-sword, plus has had dealings with stormriders and has issues with frost and ice covering him. Burn now has a pair of Jhags living in her belly. They are getting close to where the CG is actually chained to Burn, and infecting her, which might be a bit more tender to try and ascribe human terms to a god who is a planet. All of this could easily add up to the fact that she is now answering, answering differently, and answering stronger than ever before.

I can't think of any others who it could be; Killy, Kileva, OE, Ardata, Spite, Envy, etc. and others that are powerful enough either don't seem likely for various reasons or don't seem like they would respond in that way (ice). Others just wouldn't be capable of responding at all in that magic eating desert at a time with all of those gods and ascendants gathering close, or if they were capable, probably wouldn't risk drawing that attention to themselves. If anyone can think of another person who does fit, feel free to add them. If others can think of a reason to take a name off of the list add that reason and we can narrow it down. I want to take MD off because like I said, she has been turned away for a LONG time, and a random Jaghut doesn't seem all that likely either for a race that doesn't like to act, and at a time when there is a bunch of T'Lan Imass gathered including OE who is basically their god. Random TA who they haven't shown in the whole series to this point also doesn't seem that likely, but possible.
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#144 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 12:26 AM

Or a daughter of Mael, like Neruse?
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#145 User is offline   ritchiediaz 

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 06:49 PM

Quote

I can't think of any others who it could be


I always thought it was Tavore that Ruthan Gudd was talking about - it's just prior to the 14th taking on the Nah'ruk - I simply thought Gudd was referring to the fact that Tavore simply wouldn't budge from her chosen path, EVEN from 50 Nah'ruk furies, I certainly didn't think he was referring to the ice / stormrider stuff. I'll have to read that again.
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#146 User is offline   WhiskeyJackDaniels 

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 12:34 AM

I just figured he was something like a servant of Burn, and that is the connection with Greymane. But I suppose he could be some elder power that has just been around forever (maybe he and Greymane had a Bugg/Tehol relationship without the ridiculousness). I think we'll get confirmation, because I don't think he's dead, or if he is dead, the Bridgeburners will send him back to the Bonehunters because they will need his help.

Also, I don't think Quick is Grizzin Farl, but I think its probable that he has GF's soul or essence within him. I think GF is hidden inside one of the souls Quick shifted into himself. I don't think he was active until Quick had to face down Icarium though. Then GF found himself about to be destroyed by Icarium's rage, and found a way to intervene to protect Quick (the body he was residing within). It would explain why Quick seemingly powered up after that.
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#147 User is offline   Ulrik 

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 10:28 AM

To QB - are references of his about "beautiful wolf" from his sister connected to his playing with wolf hide as child or something more?:p

And Gudd - in TB he talks to Khundryl about island with tower drowned thousand years ago due to global warming caused by Jaghut genocide... anyone know which island it is (was?).
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#148 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 11:41 AM

View PostUlrik, on 29 December 2009 - 10:28 AM, said:


And Gudd - in TB he talks to Khundryl about island with tower drowned thousand years ago due to global warming caused by Jaghut genocide... anyone know which island it is (was?).




the Bonehunters page 664 (uk paperback) but dont have the book to hand

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#149 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 07 January 2010 - 03:45 PM

Personally, I'm banking on Gudd being Denuth (sp? - I'm talking about the guy who was the first to see the Azath that Osseric destroyed in RotCG)... It makes sense, see, because Denuth seems to be Earth aspected. This with the fact that Gudd is friends or allies or whatever with Greymane explains Greymane's Burn sword... It also explains the knowledge of Draconus... Gudd was there when that very first Azath was destroyed, and Draconus treated him if not like a friend, then at least like an equal. Isn't there a bit, too, where Gudd talks about Draconus as the Suzerain of Darkness? The only other time he gets that title is in the RotCG prologue if I remember correctly.

Now, the stormrider bit could be explained by Gudd taking some time to befriend Greymane and this probably happening when Greymane was trying to make a deal between Korel and the Stormriders... And I imagine Burn is waking up - in response to Brood using his hammer to destroy Dragnipur and to deal with the new chaining of the CG - which would explain why "she" is answering when she has never answered before... Or something along those lines... Anyway, I'm banking on him being Denuth.
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Posted 14 January 2010 - 12:57 PM

View PostBlend, on 07 January 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

Personally, I'm banking on Gudd being Denuth (sp? - I'm talking about the guy who was the first to see the Azath that Osseric destroyed in RotCG)... It makes sense, see, because Denuth seems to be Earth aspected. This with the fact that Gudd is friends or allies or whatever with Greymane explains Greymane's Burn sword... It also explains the knowledge of Draconus... Gudd was there when that very first Azath was destroyed, and Draconus treated him if not like a friend, then at least like an equal. Isn't there a bit, too, where Gudd talks about Draconus as the Suzerain of Darkness? The only other time he gets that title is in the RotCG prologue if I remember correctly.

Now, the stormrider bit could be explained by Gudd taking some time to befriend Greymane and this probably happening when Greymane was trying to make a deal between Korel and the Stormriders... And I imagine Burn is waking up - in response to Brood using his hammer to destroy Dragnipur and to deal with the new chaining of the CG - which would explain why "she" is answering when she has never answered before... Or something along those lines... Anyway, I'm banking on him being Denuth.



Best theory I've heard yet on who Ruthan is

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#151 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 04:41 PM

View Postchampooon, on 14 January 2010 - 12:57 PM, said:

Best theory I've heard yet on who Ruthan is

H.D. dug up a quote about the Just Wars that mentioned the god of the FA being named "Rynthyn" or something similar. It's pretty close and could be one of those buried foreshadowers.
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#152 User is offline   Blend 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 05:54 PM

View Postamphibian, on 14 January 2010 - 04:41 PM, said:

View Postchampooon, on 14 January 2010 - 12:57 PM, said:

Best theory I've heard yet on who Ruthan is

H.D. dug up a quote about the Just Wars that mentioned the god of the FA being named "Rynthyn" or something similar. It's pretty close and could be one of those buried foreshadowers.


I don't buy that. I just don't see Ruthan Gud being a FA, let alone the god of the FA. Wouldn't he be more interested in Justice than tagging along with the Malazan army and trying to hide? From what we've seen of FA so far, Ruthan was just not aloof enough to have been a FA.
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#153 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 06:30 PM

View PostBlend, on 14 January 2010 - 05:54 PM, said:

View Postamphibian, on 14 January 2010 - 04:41 PM, said:

View Postchampooon, on 14 January 2010 - 12:57 PM, said:

Best theory I've heard yet on who Ruthan is

H.D. dug up a quote about the Just Wars that mentioned the god of the FA being named "Rynthyn" or something similar. It's pretty close and could be one of those buried foreshadowers.


I don't buy that. I just don't see Ruthan Gud being a FA, let alone the god of the FA. Wouldn't he be more interested in Justice than tagging along with the Malazan army and trying to hide? From what we've seen of FA so far, Ruthan was just not aloof enough to have been a FA.

i agree, his attitude was far too human for him to be a FA. however that doesn't automatically disqualify him from being worshipped by the FA at some point. he could have been an elder god that they shackled with the label of "justice" and did horrific things for.

then again it could just be a coincidence. pearl ain't pearl after all
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#154 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 11:19 PM

From HD's post:

reapers gale page 395 said:

'That's the thing with the Just Wars - they never end and never will because Justice is a weak god with too many names. The Liosan called it Serkanos and the Assail called it Rynthan. Anyway, no matter what language it spoke, its followers could not understand it. A mystery language, which is why it has no power because all its followers believe the wrong things - things they just make up and nobody can agree and that's why the wars never end.'


The part I would point out, in relation to Ruthan being too human is "no matter what language it spoke, its followers could not understand it".
Which kind of implies the idea of justice that Rynthan had is not the same as the one the FA had, which would explain why he is not like them.

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#155 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 11:25 PM

More fun name-play:

"Grizzin Farl"

".Rizzin..."

"Ryzzin..."

"Rynthan."

Odds it's right? Terrible. Less than 1%. Fun to speculate? Yes.
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#156 User is offline   ritchiediaz 

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 11:30 AM

Quote

'That's the thing with the Just Wars - they never end and never will because Justice is a weak god with too many names. The Liosan called it Serkanos and the Assail called it Rynthan. Anyway, no matter what language it spoke, its followers could not understand it. A mystery language, which is why it has no power because all its followers believe the wrong things - things they just make up and nobody can agree and that's why the wars never end.'


That quote to me reads that the use of 'god' is metaphorical, not literal - i.e. the Liosan and Assail had names for the 'concept' of justice. Again though, this can move in to the territory of chicken or the egg - is a god created by worship? However in this case, I think this quote is pretty clearly trying to illustrate that Justice is a pretty subjective term. I certainly don't think it has anything to do with Ruthan Gudd.
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#157 User is offline   Hetan 

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Posted 17 January 2010 - 12:12 PM

I agree with the post above ^ and I also think the "She answers" comment refers to the sword and not a particular deity.
He does say that the swords appearance has been ensorcelled for centuries therefore the comment appears to be in relation to that - "She answers - as she never has before".
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#158 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 04:36 PM

Which also raises the question of why a threat from the Nah'ruk would trigger a 'bigger' response from a Stormrider (or possibly Jaghut) weapon.

We're told at some point that the Che'malle and Jaghut were not (generally) enemies, but we know no such thing about the Nah'ruk and Jaghut.

It could have been as simple as the magnitude of the threat - Gudd was charging headlong and alone into several tens of thousands of Nahruk at the time.

As for 'she', well, i know enough people who refer to their cars by name.

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#159 User is offline   telorast 

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 01:11 PM

and who again is grizzan farl?
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Posted 19 January 2010 - 01:40 PM

View Posttelorast, on 19 January 2010 - 01:11 PM, said:

and who again is grizzan farl?


that we do not know, a presumed elder god mentioned i believe first in HoC in a passing conversation between QB, Cots etc with some reference from QB to blood worship "been the best sort" with cots slyly looking at QB in reply!

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