[T'renn]

Tavore in contact with.... who ?

The bone thingies were used by the old guard. Who of the living old guard does she know ?

Kel - Ascended, so no
Dancer - Same
Dassem - Same
Laseen - Dead, or is she ?
Tays - dissappeared, probably warren hiking, or somethin'. Besides he doesn't need it
Toc - Dead
Urko - never met
Cartheron - possible, though I doubt it
Amaron - dead
Dujek - Dead
Nok - Whats the point ?

Another possibility is that Paran has got Dujeks....

[MTS]

First of all, is Amaron dead? My memory of ROTCG is admittedly hazy, but I don't remember him dying.

Anyway, just because the Old Guard used them doesn't preclude anyone else having them. Newer people could have inherited them. Unlikely, but still. Also, it is possible that Paran inherited Dujek's, but a) how would he know how to use it, b ) where would Tavore have gotten an ensorcelled KCCM bone, and c) in the 11 books written in the Malaziverse, only 1 has used them, and that's the very first - these things are never even mentioned in the others, even by the Old Guard in ROTCG. It's a GotM'ism, I'm fairly sure. Tavore does seem to have some sort of communicative ability that we don't know about, but I seriously doubt it's these bones. Sure, she could have been talking to Tayschrenn, who might have them, but now he's gone, and it is explicitly stated in DoD that Banaschar is only around in case Tays actually does something, so she's obviously not talking to him. I think the more likely solution is she either has made a deal with the gods, or that she has come by her knowledge by digging through ST and Cotillion's past. She was the pre-eminent scholar of their lives after all, as we find out in DoD.

[Grief]

Fucking hell, what a brilliant book.

Some thoughts.

The Azathanai are mentioned as working in quarries-so could be the azath builders such as the one Nimander meets in TTH.
Olar Ethil mentions that parts of her are seperate or somesuch-so part of her could welll be a sleeping burn.
I agree with dibs assessment of QB-I felt he was a likely Elder-particularly with the Draconus line. Grizzin Farl perhaps-the one they all believe dead? Do we know much else of him, his aspect?

[Grief]

Another Kickass part-we learnt the name of the CG and the name of the Otataral Dragon. We also learn she's female-not sure whether or not we knew that before.

[MTS]

Grief, on Aug 23 2009, 11:36 PM, said:

Fucking hell, what a brilliant book.

Some thoughts.

The Azathanai are mentioned as working in quarries-so could be the azath builders such as the one Nimander meets in TTH.
Olar Ethil mentions that parts of her are seperate or somesuch-so part of her could welll be a sleeping burn.
I agree with dibs assessment of QB-I felt he was a likely Elder-particularly with the Draconus line. Grizzin Farl perhaps-the one they all believe dead? Do we know much else of him, his aspect?

Someone posited earlier that the Azathanai could be the descendants of the NO, and that they lost that name. I think that's unlikely, as Azathanai basically means "Azath people", so it's more of a descriptor, really, rather than a cult. I think you're spot on with the theory the Azath builder is related to the Azathanai.

That's a good point. Creates an interesting dynamic with the whole Greymane/Brood thing though. Unless she has multiple personality disorder, Olar Ethil's agenda is Burn's agenda (if she is indeed Burn, of course, and not some megalomaniacal, senile old cow), so you have to wonder what she's up to. She could very well tell Brood to end it all if her plans go awry.

Grizzin Farl's aspect? Toast. Duh.

Quote

Another Kickass part-we learnt the name of the CG and the name of the Otataral Dragon. We also learn she's female-not sure whether or not we knew that before.

I don't think we knew that before. Does it mean all that much though? I guess if she's like T'iam, she could spawn mini-ODs, and really fuck up the system, causing the whole "end of the world" thing...*/end crazy theory*

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 23 August 2009 - 01:50 PM

[Grief]

Meh, just thought it was a nice touch. Mildy dissapointed to find the CG-hyped for some time-is not actually much of a threat-more of an inheritor from the OD. Though when I read the line about him defending for what is coming I was like "hoshit".

As for Burn, i'm not sure. If Olar is Burn, then part of her is sleeping. Burn always struck me as quite compassionate(getting Brood to look for choice 3) so that could explain why she is so cruel(the nice part of her is asleep). Of course if she gets that bit to wake up it destroys civilisations-which Burn at least has seemed loath to do. I'm not sure if she is Burn though, she seemed quite fucking crazy at points.

Sinn and Grub seem to have had quite the powerboost-not really sure what to make of that one.

Oh, and i'm happy, a pet theory of mine has been confirmed. Where the Elders are talking about the degradation of power-how the newly born rage in power then weaken-gods get weaker over time, the ascendants get weaker over time, because the peaks of society are ever slightly lower each time. Which is something i've believed for some time really.

[Illuyankas]

We learnt the OD was female when we first saw it, back in HOC.

[Grief]

Ah alright, had forgotten that then.

About QB, he also mentions that certain people have seen through him-Rake, and maybe Osserc, maybe a few others(where we also get a nice tidbit about there being a Jaghut Soletaken-anyone got any thoughts on who? Gothos seems the, or one of the, most powerful Jaghut, could that be his folly?). Anyway, it's suggest QB is defeinetely very powerful, enough so to consider taking on Draconus. I wonder if the bit about Rake and Osserc means he knew them, or just that they would be able to recognise him for what he was. He's certainly potent, and I reckon Elder, but i'd like to hear more about this Soletaken Jaghut.

[MTS]

You know, the whole Draconus line could just be a red herring. He could be intending to neutralise him, not directly take him out of the game. He was confident enough to do it with the CG, after all.

[Illuyankas]

@Grief: That's from Ruin's teaching of Rud/Ryadd. Don't forget, not just Jaghut Soletaken, but a Jaghut Soletaken Elient. I'm going to look forward to seeing that in action.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 23 August 2009 - 03:04 PM

[polishgenius]

Grief, on Aug 23 2009, 03:54 PM, said:

I wonder if the bit about Rake and Osserc means he knew them, or just that they would be able to recognise him for what he was.

I'd suspect he either knows them or is something to do with the Tiste, because he's met plenty of other gods and ascendants, including Elders (K'rul and I'm presuming Mael) who don't apparently know him.

[Urizen]

Grief, on Aug 23 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

Ah alright, had forgotten that then.

About QB, he also mentions that certain people have seen through him-Rake, and maybe Osserc, maybe a few others(where we also get a nice tidbit about there being a Jaghut Soletaken-anyone got any thoughts on who? Gothos seems the, or one of the, most powerful Jaghut, could that be his folly?). Anyway, it's suggest QB is defeinetely very powerful, enough so to consider taking on Draconus. I wonder if the bit about Rake and Osserc means he knew them, or just that they would be able to recognise him for what he was. He's certainly potent, and I reckon Elder, but i'd like to hear more about this Soletaken Jaghut.

Rake seeing through QB I read as Rake seeing QB's "true" soul, the person he is at his core if you will. The business with Draconus don't nessecary mean a confrontation but rather Draconus reaching out for servants/followers(QB being Mage of Dark and Draconus being King/Consort of Dark) and QB staying the hell away because he don't want to serve any god.

I don't feel QB is Elder since we in TBH sees flashbacks to QB's youth.

[polishgenius]

Quick's met other gods and ascendants, including Elders and the Master of the Deck, so it's interesting that he only refers to Osserc and Rake (when has he even met Osserc?) about seeing through him.

[MTS]

Urizen, on Aug 24 2009, 01:36 AM, said:

I don't feel QB is Elder since we in TBH sees flashbacks to QB's youth.

Multiple souls, multiple 'childhoods'...

[Egwene]

@ Imperial - I quoted Dujek and Whiskeyjack as an example of two main characters communicating with each other without us the reader being aware of this. I was not suggesting that Tavore is using the same method. There are plenty of other options. Mael's dagger to name one. And one would think that Tays would be able to replicate QB's feat of staying in touch with people he wants to stay in touch with.

As for who... obviously, her brother is a strong possibility. After Mael's little pep talk, she might have taken the hint. Tays... his game has been pretty murky and he'd be a good one to have a foot in the door. For all we know, she might have had a quiet chat with Silverfox before they parted. I am sure there are others that could easily be written into the script if SE had decided on topping her.

Reference Quick and his status... it seems to be a bit much of a coincidence that he gets marked Magus of Dark as well as having all these other references that connect him with the Tiste Andii. I'd be quite happy to lay money on one of the missing souls being a TA though I am not sure I'd stretch to Elder God.

[MTS]

Pg. 531 of the hardback:

Quote

'A Malazan.' Mael nodded. 'So too is the Master of the Deck. And so too is the Master's unpredictable, unknowable ally - the Adjunct Tavore.'

It's fairly obvious they're in cahoots. Mael definitely seems to think so. As to Tavore's insistence that she isn't in contact with him, I think she's just holding her cards close to her chest.

This post has been edited by Mappo's Travelling Sack: 23 August 2009 - 04:14 PM

[Grief]

Illuyankas, on Aug 23 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

@Grief: That's from Ruin's teaching of Rud/Ryadd. Don't forget, not just Jaghut Soletaken, but a Jaghut Soletaken Elient. I'm going to look forward to seeing that in action.

Oh yeah, forgot where it was from. But yeah, Jaghut soletaken eleint-which seems awesome since we haven't seen any jaghut soletaken at all.

[Urizen]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 23 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Urizen, on Aug 24 2009, 01:36 AM, said:

I don't feel QB is Elder since we in TBH sees flashbacks to QB's youth.

Multiple souls, multiple 'childhoods'...

Except that we see his childhood from his elder sisters PoV for the most part and she's nobody special. He was "just" Ben Adelphon Delat until the Raraku event takes place and he get multiple souls stuffed inside him. I suppose the birth and life of Ben Adelphon Delat(Pre- Raraku) could have been just the latest rebirth of some Elder God but EG's don't seem to be doing that and quite frankly QB seems to be too human in all the earlier books..

This post has been edited by Urizen: 23 August 2009 - 05:34 PM

[Grief]

Meh, he may not necessarily have been Elder at Birth-he may have accidentally obtained an elder soul.

[drinksinbars]

Urizen, on Aug 23 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on Aug 23 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

Urizen, on Aug 24 2009, 01:36 AM, said:

I don't feel QB is Elder since we in TBH sees flashbacks to QB's youth.

Multiple souls, multiple 'childhoods'...

Except that we see his childhood from his elder sisters PoV for the most part and she's nobody special. He was "just" Ben Adelphon Delat until the Raraku event takes place and he get multiple souls stuffed inside him. I suppose the birth and life of Ben Adelphon Delat(Pre- Raraku) could have been just the latest rebirth of some Elder God but EG's don't seem to be doing that and quite frankly QB seems to be too human in all the earlier books..

ben delat is a human from seven cities. i think we know for a though that one of his souls is andii from the telling of how he joined the bridgeburners. it is this soul that rake and osseric recognise i think, but that doesnt mean one of the souls within him isnt an elder god, much as bugg or nightchill took human form and were involved in conflicts.