[tiam]

Epiph- I also remember the Ruin scene at the begiining about the importance of individual circumstances or some such and yes it does apply. The Watch stood in a line of soldiers against a mob and did well. He then single handedly killed an FA. The only eveidence e have for an FA in action is Serenity (MT) and Calm (HOC). Even if both of these are examples of the upmost skill we still have Ruins thoughts and dream that state that it was Dragons who had to wipe them out. To have a soldier do that regardlesss of ancestry is out of place. Spinnock couldnt have done it and hes the best non ascendent fighter weve seen.

Veilside- Nothing is so hard to beleive about Knuckles parenting simply it was portrayed in MT as the Errant had been usurped by Knuckles. As for the rest of that bit my opinion still stands until a reread in which case i wil likely love it as i did with TTH.

You argue that it was the start of their 'journey' that made them weak? Ok Fear doesnt really get a power boost, Rhulad likely doubles in power so does Trull. If either of them had come up against an FA, who again it takes DRAGONS to kill, in their prime then maybe this would be a bit more plausible. But even at their 'lesser stages' the three of them would be dead if it wasnt for thse Kenyllah princes in the same way that the Nachts killed the FA.

As for the Iccy in the HOC mountains bit i was always confused by that myself. I always assumed that the Imass were there to fight either the TTT or a jaghut but the jaghut doesnt appear Iccy turns up and tries to calm the situation down and then Calm turns up to really calm the situation down and kills a shit load of Imass.

[Illuyankas]

It takes dragons to kill loads at once. To walk into a city meaning to kill them all and walk (or fly, whichever) out again without dying. One on one is likely a lot easier. And what if Trull had a spear that wouldn't break?

[Veilside]

Tiam, how can you assume that Spinnock wouldn't be able to defeat a FA, you have absolutely nothing to base the argument on either way.

No, I'm not saying that's it's the start of their journey that makes them weak, I'm saying that they weren't at their peak when we saw them encounter a FA, so all we can assume from those fights is that two FA managed to beat characters that would later get strong, again, I don't think you can simply say they doubled in power, because we've got no evidence of that.

Let's not forget that Ruin had been stuck in the earth for a few thousands years, it's really quite plausible that something has happened since he encountered them which caused them to have weakened.

As far as the HoC thing, who knows, we've got no evidence that the TI would go after a single FA, so we can't make an argument either way as we don't know the details, and we certainly shouldn't extrapolate information we don't know for certain into something else.

[tiam]

The Karsas mountain scenario has been up in the air for ages i think.

Illy- even if Trull did have a spear that didnt break he, his brother and fear were all dropped in seconds. Now i hate a whod win but Ruin does make clear its difficult to kill these things.

Veilside- As for the Spinnoc thing that was a generalisation due to the fact that you (or someone) said that the shake arent entirely human. The consensus on the FA in DOD seems to be they might not be pure FA just as the Shak are not pure human. They are part Andii and my example was the best Anddian swordsman weve seen in Spinnock. Again not a whod win scenario but im simply saying he couldnt kill an FA if Trull, Fear and Rhulad couldnt.

The doubled in power was simpl an off hand comment to support your 'they were at the begining of their journey' theory. As for Ruins lost sense of power which i do see your point on, id say what could have possibly happened since then that doesnt conform with the 2 fA weve seen upto this point who dropped 3 main characters famed for the weapon skills, bar maybe fear, and Karsa and the other two teblor dropped on their arses. If theyve suffered a massive degradation of power than that means theyve been watered down so the BH can kill them.

Say Calm is the exceptional example of an FA and killed all those Imass. Youd think a degraded form would still drop Spinnock or the Watch

[Veilside]

Uhm, we've seen a few Andii that are much better swordsmen than Spinnock, Rake and Ruin. Why could Spinnock, at the height of his power not beat an FA, he was a much better fighter than the Sengar brothers were at the time they encountered the FA.
Those three characters weren't famed for their skill at the time they encountered the FA.

Really, you're reading far too much into some offhand comments in earlier books, you should really look back on the comments in the book and view them for what they are, comments from characters that are not omniscient. Every character has their own agenda, a BB might say Kalam is the best assassin ever, does that make it true, absolutely not, learn to read between the lines.

[fafner]

and like I said earlier we know that the FA are making a big ass portal because they need

a. the power of the chained god

b. the blood of the people of kolase

so why won't it sap there own power as well (btw i am wondering what they are summoning there)

and by the watch you can see he and his sister are getting stronger when they go to the road of gallan (like the 2 witches are a lot younger)

[tiam]

FIrst of all i can read beetween the lines. Rake and Ruin are ascendents and watch is not an ascedent therefore is not compatible with the comparison beetween a fairly mortal human and an FA. I used Spinnock because hes not an ascendent but is better than the Watch ffs.

No character comments are not the be all and end all i agree. However when the scant information we have about a race suggests that they are unstoppable 10000 Imass killing machines that can only be broght donw by dragons and the 2 weve seen made easy work of three good warriors I dont think its unreasonable for me to question that a fairly standard sword wielder could take one down so quickly. Its hardly me not reading beetween the lines when Ruin says something like ' they needed Eleint to kill them and Hood knows they needed killing'. I think its better to question these things than to just accept them

[Lister of Smeg]

I thought the FA following the children were weaker because there was something about the Glass Desert that disagreed with them. Badalle thought (and she was right) that they wouldn't follow the kids into the glass city for some reason (fear of Icarium?), so maybe the entire place is anathema to them.

Also, I agree with Illy when he says it took dragons to kill entire cities of FA, not just individual ones. And how many times have we seen elder powers brought down by newer ones due to arrogance? The FA that fought the Watch thought his magic would make the battle a foregoine conclusion. Yedan's resistance took it by surprise. That was my take on the scene, anyway.

[tiam]

yes i agree that the Eleint would only be needed for groups of the FA. But the FA weve seen seem to be solid whereas the FA in DOD which likely builds up an encounter beetween the BH and the FA makes them alot more manageable

[Veilside]

tiam, on Aug 25 2009, 07:00 PM, said:

FIrst of all i can read beetween the lines. Rake and Ruin are ascendents and watch is not an ascedent therefore is not compatible with the comparison beetween a fairly mortal human and an FA. I used Spinnock because hes not an ascendent but is better than the Watch ffs.

No character comments are not the be all and end all i agree. However when the scant information we have about a race suggests that they are unstoppable 10000 Imass killing machines that can only be broght donw by dragons and the 2 weve seen made easy work of three good warriors I dont think its unreasonable for me to question that a fairly standard sword wielder could take one down so quickly. Its hardly me not reading beetween the lines when Ruin says something like ' they needed Eleint to kill them and Hood knows they needed killing'. I think its better to question these things than to just accept them

Spinnock is better than the Watch? What are you basing that on?

You're reading too much into the Calm incident, all we can get from that part in HoC is that "10000" Imass died, and that Calm was chained down by Icarium (I think) We don't know who the Imass were after, we don't know who was with Calm, and we don't know that the two events are even related. (another assumption we could make is that Iccy trapped a particularly powerful FA when he was founding the new tribes, so that they wouldn't be hunted to complete extinction, aka nothing to do with the Imass) If there's anything I've forgotten that clearly states otherwise, feel free to quote it.
Also, as has been said before, Ruin's statement only says that dragons were neccesary to kill FA cities, so we can't make any real assumption from that either.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Quote

yes i agree that the Eleint would only be needed for groups of the FA. But the FA weve seen seem to be solid whereas the FA in DOD which likely builds up an encounter beetween the BH and the FA makes them alot more manageable

i don't know about that, maybe because all we saw was them getting ass-kicked, it was perceived that they were more manageable, but i don't believe that.

the FA in the wastelands were seriously suffering some hardcore depredations, then to have a child usurp their holy voice and serve them? they were shit outta luck.

yeddan derrygs scene just screams to me of his potential, not the FA's weakening. it shows us more of yedans arcane knowledge. FA? hamstring the bastard. that'll stop his dancing. could he not have rolled under the blow and come up behind the thing?

then there's the FA that the nachts take out(coolest fracking thing ever by the way, "omg theys still nachts, just big as feck"), the one which cut through a horses neck with its hand. hm. they still seem pretty powerful to me.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 25 August 2009 - 07:12 PM

[Set'alahd Crool]

First off WOW and thanks again Steve.

I think Ruin's lecture on power was meant to say that the purpose or function of a power can allow it to overcome a seemingly much greater power. This could relate to the Watch. The FA seemed to recognise and understand his title, so it's possible that Yeddan is the inheritor of a power that's very purpose relates to his slaying of an FA in those circumstances. I dunno, guarding the road or some such. Also, he told Twilight that they were the true children of shadow, not Andii(still trying to get my head around that tbh). Maybe when he suddenly appeared behind the FA it's simply that he was there all along, and what yer man attacked was just an illusion....

As for the snake being stronger than the quitters, when it started the snake stretched further than the eye could see. How many would that be? And how many survived? I don't know but we're probably looking at a death rate of 99%. I can't remember the death rate among the quitters, but considering the survivors of the snake survived by eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the other 99%, and used what remained to fashion a defence against the flesh eating locusts, it doesn't seem how strong or quick or magic resistant FA are would be relevant. I agree with previous posts that Calm was sustained by the wards that imprisoned him.

Who survived and how? I seriously doubt tBH are wiped out since SE would never miss the opportunity the break our hearts by painting that picture in gruesome detail. The Unbond mught be the key here. They are on the CG's side - I think - just like Tavore. Did she let him know her plan? Could he have intervened through 5 of his more potent allies/puppets/whatever? Clearly tBH lost the battle, but they managed to withdraw and weren't chased. The CG, QB, Lostara's shadowdance, Mael's knife.... The possible arrival of the the Evertines et al. Not to forget Hedge's new mysterious munitions which were presumably being loaded onto whatever artillery Bryss ordered to be readied, or Bryss himself. There are plenty of ways for tBH to have survived in relatively large numbers, excepting the marines and probably heavies.
Also, I gathered Ruthan was NOT a stormrider. Something along the lines of "Man, it hurts to make myself look like this", and I thought, since he had a stormrider sword and everyone now knew, he disguised himself as one so no one would see he's really.....the Elder God of Toast or something.

Quick Ben. Hmm. We know Ben Adaephon Delat is a 7C born human who possesses the the souls of 11 persons about whom we know very little. I used to like the theory that one of them was a Nameless one, but now I think it may be elder instead. A quote from GotM comes back to me, when he tells Hairlock that he has been to the spar of Andii(amd beyond?). We tend to write off GotM, but maybe we shouldn't. SE hides gems everywhere. Elder and soletaken Eleint? Why not? Heck, all this Magus of Dark could be misdirection and he could be Father Light! One thing he's not, however, is dead.

Icarium and his city. The first thing that hit me when he attacked the skykeeps was not why isn't he wiping the floor with them but where the hell is his rage gone? Not even a whisper of anger, and he's in the middle of the most serious battle the world has seen since the gods knows when. Without his rage he can't level entire continents, but that's not inconsistency about his power on behalf of SE imho.
Icarius seems to have been built by Icarium with help from the KCCM. The story Badalle sees implies that Jaghut returned to the community life they had long since abandoned to follow Icarium, and we think he learned his engineering from the KC so it's reasonable to assume his adopted KC family had some part to play in his city's construction. Who destroyed the Temple, and with it the tale's conclusion? The two obvious candidates are Iccy himself having one of his moments or the Nameless Ones starting him on the path they wanted him to take.

One last point for now. The Boles. Strength in rage seems to be a Jaghut thing, not just Iccy. I recall a few warnings in previous books about the peril of a Jaghut woken to rage. If they do turn out to be the hardest b@st@rds of the lot I wouldn't be surprised. Iccy's the only one who couldn't control his rage, so maybe they were all that strong, but in turning their backs on civilisation they also renounced their rage and would rather die than again destroy 50 universes in a scrap over a poker game like they did 35 billion years ago.

Phew

[Epiph]

Set'alahd Crool, on Aug 25 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

I think Ruin's lecture on power was meant to say that the purpose or function of a power can allow it to overcome a seemingly much greater power. This could relate to the Watch. The FA seemed to recognise and understand his title, so it's possible that Yeddan is the inheritor of a power that's very purpose relates to his slaying of an FA in those circumstances. I dunno, guarding the road or some such. Also, he told Twilight that they were the true children of shadow, not Andii(still trying to get my head around that tbh). Maybe when he suddenly appeared behind the FA it's simply that he was there all along, and what yer man attacked was just an illusion....

Oh yeah, that reminds me of a thought I had while I was reading the fight between Yeddin and the FA. It seemed like Yeddin knew that withholding his name would help him win, which ties to the use of words of power by the Quitters. It might also imply that the FA use noms de fist (Calm, Serenity, etc) to keep the power of their names from their opponents. It's been alluded to before that there is power in a name--Karsa wouldn't tell his name to anyone in 7 Cities for a while, the Nameless Ones give up their names and use the names of other against them, the Icarium worshipping monk in RG talks about the power of names, some conversation Samar Dev has revolves around the power of names. Anyway, just a thought.

Quote

Icarius seems to have been built by Icarium with help from the KCCM. The story Badalle sees implies that Jaghut returned to the community life they had long since abandoned to follow Icarium, and we think he learned his engineering from the KC so it's reasonable to assume his adopted KC family had some part to play in his city's construction. Who destroyed the Temple, and with it the tale's conclusion? The two obvious candidates are Iccy himself having one of his moments or the Nameless Ones starting him on the path they wanted him to take.

It wasn't Badalle, it was that other kid, who memorized her poems. The description of the damage to the temple made me think of Killy.

[fafner]

hmm make sense lets say that the power of the FA is in titles they know like calm ect ect and only those are extreme strong those who got names are the lesser ones and by making himself The Watch a title that the FA know he is powered by there own magic likewise by the snake she redirect the spells of the FA by using the terms they see as powerfull.

[polishgenius]

I'm not quite sure what fafner's last post is saying (apologies if that's rude, but it is a bit scrambled), but I thought something along similar lines- the FA the Watch killed had his name, and was surprised by the lack of effect. He then said it was his title she needed- and kicked her arse. Bethod, Delum and Karsa revealed their names in Calm's presence - I don't have it to hand so can someone say if the one that kicked the Sengar brothers arses had theirs? It'd help my pet theory along a bit... either way though I'm sure that the fact that 'his title is the significant part' is a clue to the nature of the FA's methods.




Going back a bit, why the assumption that Spinnock Durav is the best non-ascendant we've seen? We know he isn't because Kallor isn't ascendant and beat him, and even if we discount Kallor as an in-between abberration, Whiskeyjack had the measure of Kallor so should be on the level of Spinnock. I don't see that we have any indication that Spinnock is on the level, let alone better than, Tool (undead or alive), Brys, the Crimson Guard, higher ranking Seguleh, Trull, or any other high-rep fighter we might have come across.

[Grief]

polishgenius, on Aug 25 2009, 11:33 PM, said:

I'm not quite sure what fafner's last post is saying (apologies if that's rude, but it is a bit scrambled), but I thought something along similar lines- the FA the Watch killed had his name, and was surprised by the lack of effect. He then said it was his title she needed- and kicked her arse. Bethod, Delum and Karsa revealed their names in Calm's presence - I don't have it to hand so can someone say if the one that kicked the Sengar brothers arses had theirs? It'd help my pet theory along a bit... either way though I'm sure that the fact that 'his title is the significant part' is a clue to the nature of the FA's methods.




Going back a bit, why the assumption that Spinnock Durav is the best non-ascendant we've seen? We know he isn't because Kallor isn't ascendant and beat him, and even if we discount Kallor as an in-between abberration, Whiskeyjack had the measure of Kallor so should be on the level of Spinnock. I don't see that we have any indication that Spinnock is on the level, let alone better than, Tool (undead or alive), Brys, the Crimson Guard, higher ranking Seguleh, Trull, or any other high-rep fighter we might have come across.

Well Spinnock for one wasn't trying to hurt kallor-only defending.

It's a hard fight to judge, since both fighters by the end thought that the other was the better fighter-or at least that's how I remember it. They seemed to be having a contest of "No you're better than me-I insist"..."Am I hell- you're better than me"..."Admit you're the better swordfighter or i'll kill you with my sword"...

On the other hand, i'd say spinnock is more likely to be being modest, and so would rank him higher than kallor.

[Blacksox]

The FA and a few other things bug me in the series right now.

The FA have seriously recieved a figurative de-testicle-ization. They have gone from being nearly impossible to kill creatures who seem able to survive anywhere to the weakest of the elder races. OK Calm was awesome and porbably singular, Serenity was seemingly much weaker. But he still survived entombment where the Quiters can barely survive walking thru the wastelands. Besides Silchas ruins statements there are others such as one stated by one of the unbound that Imass never had any success against the FA. Which seems to state they are at least on par with the Jaghut but that certainly no longer seems the case.

Secondly Silchas Ruin was such an awesome character, but since the last scene he was in in RG he has really been made into a bitch. How had Rud already surpassed him? Rud does have human blood which seems to help, but he is the son also of a ascedent who is far weaker the Ruin and has weaker Elient and Tiste blood. That would not bother me if Rud had actually ever done anything. He basically sits around and does jack shit and then just out of nowhere eclipses a warrior who up until the end of the last book was stated to be without equal. So how does a warrior who has been a bad ass for probably over a million years and killed K'chain and there Matrons by the score suddenly just be eclipsed by someone who has done nothing to earn such power and skill.

And the thing that really pissed me off in this book is Tool. OMG!!!! He has been turned into a complete dumb ass. Every book he has every been mentioned in his leadership and wisdom has been betrayed as awesome. He is a freakin legend with the TA and admired for his wisdom and leadership. He was by far one of the coolest characters in the series. First off he shows zero leadership with the Bargasts, I think they probably have a damn right to be concerned from what I saw of him as warleader. Every thing seems to be falling apart and he just does nothing. What did the fool expect to happen to his family when he killed himself? He probably could have saved all the Bargast(not that they seem worth saving) just by drawing his stupid sword and displaying his abilities instead he sacrifices himself meaninglessly along with his wife and children. Now he blames the entire world for his own mistakes and is seemingly off to lead the TA into more futility and reapeting the same cycle he himself spoke out against at the same ritual.

BTW I like Spax. It is a relief to have a character that is seemingly not a depressed philosopher who thinks the same as scores of other complete emo's or is not a complete douchebag. I also like sergeant Twit/Sunshine the "Bridgburners absolutley cracked me up.

Don't get me wrong I love the series but man this book was majorly depressing.

[Urizen]

Blacksox, on Aug 26 2009, 04:09 AM, said:

The FA and a few other things bug me in the series right now.

The FA have seriously recieved a figurative de-testicle-ization. They have gone from being nearly impossible to kill creatures who seem able to survive anywhere to the weakest of the elder races. OK Calm was awesome and porbably singular, Serenity was seemingly much weaker. But he still survived entombment where the Quiters can barely survive walking thru the wastelands. Besides Silchas ruins statements there are others such as one stated by one of the unbound that Imass never had any success against the FA. Which seems to state they are at least on par with the Jaghut but that certainly no longer seems the case.

I still believe that the FA's me see in DoD are somehow weaken from their close contact with the Crippled God's heart. Wards and supposed control or not, you just don't meddle with the CG's power without any side effects. This could also explain why FA's like Calm and Serenity are so much more powrful, They have been kept away from Kolanese and remains un-corrupted. Another explaination for the de-powering of the FA could be that the super Gate they are constructing (for whatever reason) are drawing it's power from all FA..

Blacksox, on Aug 26 2009, 04:09 AM, said:

Secondly Silchas Ruin was such an awesome character, but since the last scene he was in in RG he has really been made into a bitch. How had Rud already surpassed him? Rud does have human blood which seems to help, but he is the son also of a ascedent who is far weaker the Ruin and has weaker Elient and Tiste blood. That would not bother me if Rud had actually ever done anything. He basically sits around and does jack shit and then just out of nowhere eclipses a warrior who up until the end of the last book was stated to be without equal. So how does a warrior who has been a bad ass for probably over a million years and killed K'chain and there Matrons by the score suddenly just be eclipsed by someone who has done nothing to earn such power and skill.

It could be construed that Rud surpasses Silchas in personality and as a leader, not as a fighter. People like Rake, Dujek WJ and Caladan Brood for instance doesn't lead because they are the most powerful fighters. They have that hard- to- define "leader personality".

Anyone has any speculation on where SE is going with Silchas Ruin and Rud? All the talk about how it was Silchas Ruin that commanded Blind Gallan to save the Shake seems to lead towards Silchas getting involved in the Shake storyline but where does that leave Rud?

Blacksox, on Aug 26 2009, 04:09 AM, said:

BTW I like Spax. It is a relief to have a character that is seemingly not a depressed philosopher who thinks the same as scores of other complete emo's or is not a complete douchebag. I also like sergeant Twit/Sunshine the "Bridgburners absolutley cracked me up.

Don't get me wrong I love the series but man this book was majorly depressing.

I too liked Spax but I felt Spax and his Barghast where out of character, being content with hanging around the Bolkando not fighting. The general theme of DoD was that the Barghast had had it with Tool and his peace, love and understanding ways, yet we are supposed to accept Spax breaking away from Tool only to wind up in the same situation with the Bolkando.

[drinksinbars]

yeah the impression i got was in wisdom not ability in regard to rud and silchas.

[Lister of Smeg]

Urizen, on Aug 26 2009, 08:41 AM, said:

I too liked Spax but I felt Spax and his Barghast where out of character, being content with hanging around the Bolkando not fighting. The general theme of DoD was that the Barghast had had it with Tool and his peace, love and understanding ways, yet we are supposed to accept Spax breaking away from Tool only to wind up in the same situation with the Bolkando.

I thought it was because Spax and his clan stayed out of the Wastelands proper by remaining in Bolkando. As a result they stayed out of Olar Ethil's influence, which was one of the main reasons the Barghast turned so barbaric.