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The Hobbit Movie Spoilers for the film and anything to do with LotR and the hobbit

#441 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:22 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 29 July 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

View PostTraveller, on 29 July 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

It's good to see that they're continuing to fully address the problem of Tolkien's complete disregard for wacky chase scenes.



Seeing as Tolkien once wrote an entire (long) chapter that was entirely geography...I'm willing to let a little of PJ's poetic license ride when it comes to the visual medium.


His idea of 'a little' and mine differ is all.
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#442 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:00 PM

View PostSilencer, on 29 July 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Yeah, but there's a point where you get too many cookie-cutter, overlong and relatively predictable/unexciting chase scenes. Ones that didn't need to be there. Or be so ludicrously unlikely.

XD


Meh, doesn't bother me in the slightest, and in fact I kind of like them.

I'm a big Tolkien fan, but I've been able to completely disconnect the two mediums, and see PJ's films as homages, rather than adaptations, especially THE HOBBIT trilogy with all the appendices and other moments brought into the narrative.

Hell, the biggest thing that came out of SDCC this past weekend was a HUGE long chase scene from MAD MAX: FURY ROAD. When done right, they can be lots of fun. Just my opinion mind you, so YMMV.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out the use of "Pippin's Song" over-top of that trailer just strikes me like a soaring bolt through the heart. Brilliant musical choice!

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 29 July 2014 - 06:01 PM

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#443 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 08:28 PM

There were definitely too many chase scenes in the first one, but the second one had that balance down to a science.
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#444 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:56 AM

@QT - I think when, to enjoy a movie, you have to redefine it as an homage, disconnect from the source material, etc, it says more about the film than anything else. ;)
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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:22 AM

Quote

EDIT: I'd also like to point out the use of "Pippin's Song" over-top of that trailer just strikes me like a soaring bolt through the heart. Brilliant musical choice!

Got to disagree there. Imho, it is just another reuse of something from LotR (like Legolas) for sentimental tie-in value, purely because people associate the music with the "Middle Earth experience".

There are enough composers out there who could easily create something unique and beautiful. The budget is there, why not use it?

Previously, it was used as an illustration of Denethor's folly - a very specific context of the Steward of Gondor eating cherry tomatoes while his people stand on the brink of a life and death struggle. Now, it lacks any such relation.
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#446 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:41 AM

View PostTapper, on 30 July 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

Quote

EDIT: I'd also like to point out the use of "Pippin's Song" over-top of that trailer just strikes me like a soaring bolt through the heart. Brilliant musical choice!

Got to disagree there. Imho, it is just another reuse of something from LotR (like Legolas) for sentimental tie-in value, purely because people associate the music with the "Middle Earth experience".

There are enough composers out there who could easily create something unique and beautiful. The budget is there, why not use it?

Previously, it was used as an illustration of Denethor's folly - a very specific context of the Steward of Gondor eating cherry tomatoes while his people stand on the brink of a life and death struggle. Now, it lacks any such relation.


I was going to say the same thing. To me it just feels like an admission that the films have gone so far from the material, and even from what made the original trilogy work.

It's like 'Look everyone, it's still LotR's!'

I just don't think they had to become solely action flicks, when the books have so much more to offer. I still love that rendition of Misty Mountains at the start.
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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:34 AM

Looking forward to this, but curious as to how well PJ deals with the battle of the five armies as a power struggle that turns into a grudging alliance.
but also silly chase scenes
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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:17 AM

Warily positive from that trailer. I loved the first film and was disappointed with the second one overall (Tolkien Action Hero doesn't do it for me) - I felt like you lost a lot of the characters in favour of action scenes, and it's a shame when you've got a cast full of brilliant actors. I'm hoping they get to show off a bit more in this third one - and there's plenty of potential towards the end for them to do so.
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#449 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 10:48 AM

View PostSilencer, on 30 July 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

@QT - I think when, to enjoy a movie, you have to redefine it as an homage, disconnect from the source material, etc, it says more about the film than anything else. ;)


It's never been anything BUT an homage though. In fact PJ has never pretended this was a straight adaptation of the source material. I'm not jumping through any hoops to get there. I just enjoy them as what they are.
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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:00 AM

View PostQuickTidal, on 30 July 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostSilencer, on 30 July 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

@QT - I think when, to enjoy a movie, you have to redefine it as an homage, disconnect from the source material, etc, it says more about the film than anything else. ;)


It's never been anything BUT an homage though. In fact PJ has never pretended this was a straight adaptation of the source material. I'm not jumping through any hoops to get there. I just enjoy them as what they are.

The lawsuits from both WB and the holders of the original intellectual property against each other make this a rather bittersweet hommage.
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#451 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:02 AM

View PostQuickTidal, on 30 July 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostSilencer, on 30 July 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

@QT - I think when, to enjoy a movie, you have to redefine it as an homage, disconnect from the source material, etc, it says more about the film than anything else. ;)


It's never been anything BUT an homage though. In fact PJ has never pretended this was a straight adaptation of the source material. I'm not jumping through any hoops to get there. I just enjoy them as what they are.


Oh, come on. You know that's semantics and wishful thinking. I'm pretty sure it's formally an adaptation.

And I think you're stretching to claim that Jackson never planned a "straight" adaptation. That's massive use of "specific words". Of COURSE it was never going to be 100% true. That's a simple fact of book-to-film. None of the adaptations from the past are 100% "straight" adaptations.

There's a pretty big difference between making that claim, and saying that Jackson said it was a "homage", or that he said it was "just a rough approximation with a lot of on-rails rollercoaster scenes with a bit of story around it".



Look, I enjoy the films. But pretending like they aren't a LOT less than they could, should, and were more or less *expected* to be, is just willful denial. Heck, Jackson is the one who didn't WANT to do the Hobbit films - the only reason he's back is because people begged and bowed and scraped and offered copious amounts of money, and let him have the freedom to do whatever he wanted. And the problem with that is he fundamentally doesn't really care about adapting them - so he's happy to drop in random new characters, Legolas cameos, etc, etc.
I don't blame him for that. But I do reserve the right to criticize the adaptation. If you're calling it an homage, that's your call, but it's not. It was never meant to be what Black Dynamite is to blacksploitation, for example, and I think you'd struggle to make that argument.
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#452 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 01:38 PM

Okay, well all film adaptations take on the homage moniker in some way or another, because a straight adaptation of a book usually makes a film almost incoherent (See: SNOW FALLING ON CEDARS or THE CIDER HOUSE RULES) due to the narrative nature of those mediums. So through additions, changes, character switches, and scene modifications is a film adapted from book source material. The level at which this takes place is largely a result of the source material itself (how filmable is this?), and the writer's and Director (and to a smaller extent the producers) input. A good example of this would be I, ROBOT, which as a book is a bunch of VERY loosely interconnected stories about the 3 laws of robotics. Most of the main points of the tale were put in there by Alex Proyas and Co. But imagining that its the same experience as the book is a bit more than offside thinking. This is not an inherently BAD thing (I'm not sure why a lot of people are so set on believing that it is...the books are still on your shelf, and you still can read them anytime), and in the fact of my example film I quite enjoy I,ROBOT (probably Proyas most accomplished film), but I'm quite happy to distance it from the book it is based upon.

Having read THE HOBBIT twice rather recently I noted many sections where Tolkien allows the readers mind to make the jumps (something the films fill in with new "versions"). The escape from the goblins cave, the barrels out of the Elven kingdom...these are handled with one or two sentences in the book. Tolkien didn't really write action scenes as we know them today. He sufficed it with the equivalent of "Bilbo used the wine delivery system to allow everyone to escape in barrels through a waterfall." Put yourself in the screenwriters shoes here. How do you translate this to the big screen (keeping in mind that probably more than 50% of your audience aren't going to be Tolkien purists who care about the specifics)? Do you just show them escaping quickly over a minute or two? Or do you take the chance to entertain your audience by having the escape become a bit of an action sequence? I'll wager that most Hollywood screenwriters would take the opportunity to make the action sequence. The same is true of the Goblin cave escape, it happens rather abruptly in the book (as do most of the events actually, Tolkien was FAR less verbose in TH than he was in LOTR or THE SILMARILLION) and adding a sequence to it will entertain the core audience (the core audience being the average movie goer, not the Tolkien fans), regardless of the fact that you and I know it's been tacked on. THE HOBBIT is a fast book, and when you break down all the various bits that occur in it, you'd be surprised how much would be laid out on screen. A one film HOBBIT would have been both impossible, and would have to skip along at way too fast a pace to be taken in. You can't have Gandalf just disappear randomly in a movie like he does in the book frequently. So, you add the appendices about where he went, and all the others scenes this will entail.

Actually, Jackson and his wife DID want to make THE HOBBIT from the beginning (they had been wanting to make it since 1995) the problems with him making it arose from a lawsuit between him and New Line cinema about residuals and such things from LOTR trilogy), and New Line eventually lost and had to pay Jackson. The relationship was still sore though, so Jackson only came on as a producer for it initially, and then director again only after Del Toro left the project. It's also well know that Jackson, Boyens and Walsh had ALWAYS been writing the script since the project began, so any argument that the story wasn't going to come out as it has...is incorrect. Jackson never had his hands OUT of the HOBBIT films....it's just that him directing it was in question due to legal battles. Had Del Toro directed the film, it still would have been PJ & Co.s script.

And I think my main point is Film is Film. Books are Books. And the difference between film and book will always be there, the gyre will either be wide or narrow, but it will always be there. Adaptation is never easy, and film requires things that books don't. One of those things is entertaining the masses over the devout. Ask anyone who saw MAN OF STEEL who is a Silver Comics Superman purist...they have all roundly disavowed that film due to Superman's killing of Zod...meanwhile the rest of the audience not only had no problem with it, but found it made perfect sense. Anyone who says that FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, for example, is an easily adaptable book to film as it stands is kidding themselves. The majority of events in that book consist of walking and singing. I love that book, but I'd have been annoyed had it been straightly adapted as we'd have been in for much Hobbit-walking and discussion of Elevensies. But the deal is that the main points, and even some subtle ones are there for the having. Does it matter that FOTR is WAY more action heavy than the books ever were...when a Tolkien purist is also given the scene where Legolas slyly lets known that Galadriel giving Gimli three hairs from her head means the absolute WORLD to anyone who has read THE SILMARILLION and knows of Feanor. I think PJ gets a raw deal, when he really does in fact want to give the purists their moments.

I know that Dobby gives the Gillyweed to Harry in THE GOBLET OF FIRE, not Neville. I know that the shrieking shack scene in PRISONER OF AZKABAN is much longer, more emotional and gut-punchy in the books, and I know that PERCY JACKSON AND THE LIGHTNING THIEF is a film version of the book in basically only character names and plot ideas....but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the film versions for what they are.

And should it? Should I be really mad about an adaptation being an homage that bears only some, or in some cases LITTLE resemblance to the book? Where does that get me? I'd be one of a group of people righteously shouting about the travesty of the film version. Which still got made. Still made scads of money. And still entertains a lot of people. EDIT: You are well entitled to dislike these films and to criticize them, I'm not attempting to take that feeling away from you...I'm only continuing to discuss for the sake of discussion. If it comes across in any other way, I apologize.

I should point out that I used to get upset at adaptations being stretched from what they were as well. It wasn't until my wife pointed out that she was able to enjoy a film based on a book for what it was (because she doesn't really read) that I had a chance to see the other side of it.

AS a Tolkien fan more of what I like is a great thing (I was never upset that it was going to be 3 films), and if I sit through some long action sequences made to please the masses as a result, so be it. No issues here.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 July 2014 - 01:45 PM

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#453 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 03:15 PM

I think PJ really wanted to make the Hobbit. I don't think he wanted to EDIT the Hobbit. When Guillermo Del Toro was involved, PJ was likely happy to remain an executive overseeing the production, but once GDT left the project he was forced into the role of deciding what needed to stay and what didn't (and honestly, that's the toughest job when making a film, especially when you are so dedicated to the spirit of the material), and also I really think the actors aren't having as much fun making these as they did with LoTR.

That definitely shows in the Hobbit movies, where the SFX aren't as fluid or enmeshed into the film. I still think THE HOBBIT films are really good and are fun to look at and I'll buy tickets to see them, but they aren't as good as the LoTR films which makes the changes to the source material stick out a little more. Just please...no more Radagast rabbit sled.
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#454 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 30 July 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

I think PJ really wanted to make the Hobbit. I don't think he wanted to EDIT the Hobbit. When Guillermo Del Toro was involved, PJ was likely happy to remain an executive overseeing the production, but once GDT left the project he was forced into the role of deciding what needed to stay and what didn't (and honestly, that's the toughest job when making a film, especially when you are so dedicated to the spirit of the material), and also I really think the actors aren't having as much fun making these as they did with LoTR.

That definitely shows in the Hobbit movies, where the SFX aren't as fluid or enmeshed into the film. I still think THE HOBBIT films are really good and are fun to look at and I'll buy tickets to see them, but they aren't as good as the LoTR films which makes the changes to the source material stick out a little more. Just please...no more Radagast rabbit sled.


I agree with all of the above. All good points.
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#455 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:33 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 30 July 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 30 July 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

I think PJ really wanted to make the Hobbit. I don't think he wanted to EDIT the Hobbit. When Guillermo Del Toro was involved, PJ was likely happy to remain an executive overseeing the production, but once GDT left the project he was forced into the role of deciding what needed to stay and what didn't (and honestly, that's the toughest job when making a film, especially when you are so dedicated to the spirit of the material), and also I really think the actors aren't having as much fun making these as they did with LoTR.

That definitely shows in the Hobbit movies, where the SFX aren't as fluid or enmeshed into the film. I still think THE HOBBIT films are really good and are fun to look at and I'll buy tickets to see them, but they aren't as good as the LoTR films which makes the changes to the source material stick out a little more. Just please...no more Radagast rabbit sled.


I agree with all of the above. All good points.


Yeah and additionally, its not like fans don't know how the story ends, so what's the problem with getting a new movie three Christmases in a row that at least isn't another piece of shit excuse for Adam Sandler to vacation in an exotic locale with his friends, or another terrible exorcism-type movie, or "Something Something Menopause" starring Diane Keaton? I used to think I would never get a proper sequel for the Bakshi LoTR and I was wistful and melancholy that I would never be able to have a stunningly visual moving picture rendition of a book that was dear to me.

That's a double edged sword though (see: Star Wars prequels).
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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#456 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:13 PM

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 30 July 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:


That's a double edged sword though (see: Star Wars prequels).


That MIGHT get redeemed. (see: Star Wars sequels).

;)
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#457 User is offline   Spoilsport Stonny 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:50 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 30 July 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

View PostSpoilsport Stonny, on 30 July 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

That's a double edged sword though (see: Star Wars prequels).


That MIGHT get redeemed. (see: Star Wars sequels).

;)


Not to sidetrack the Hobbit thread, but I find those prequels to be irredeemable. I absolutely hate them.
Theorizing that one could poop within his own lifetime, Doctor Poopet led an elite group of scientists into the desert to develop a top secret project, known as QUANTUM POOP. Pressured to prove his theories or lose funding, Doctor Poopet, prematurely stepped into the Poop Accelerator and vanished. He awoke to find himself in the past, suffering from partial amnesia and facing a mirror image that was not his own. Fortunately, contact with his own bowels was made through brainwave transmissions, with Al the Poop Observer, who appeared in the form of a hologram that only Doctor Poopet could see and hear. Trapped in the past, Doctor Poopet finds himself pooping from life to life, pooping things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time, that his next poop will be the poop home.
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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:50 PM

I wish people would stop insulting the Star Wars prequels by comparing the Hobbit to them.
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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:53 PM

Wow. Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow. Alright, Darth Hyperbole, don't get your Jar Jar jammies in a bunch or anything. They're not masterpieces, or works of art, or better than adequate, but let's not go over the top here.
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#460 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:05 PM

What kind of world do we live in where that gets said?
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