[Skywalker]

Well, so much for my attempt at an attempt at explaining things

#$&*^@#$*& facts... always getting in the way of understanding.

[lobo the wolfman]

Also (and i could be wrong about this) i belive that after the first born dragons accepted K'ruls bargin, the rest of the dragons started to attack every thing and every one because they were left out. That is what made the soletaken to close the gates of SD, other wise the ferals would just keep killing and killing. Osserc was the first, shuting off KL and killing all pretenders and rivals, both soletaken and feral purebloods. This was done after KE shattered as the ferals where fighting over parts of the warren. As to the purebloods outside SD when the gates were shut, Sorrit may already have been killed, Ampelas, Kalse and Eloth where chained by Rake and wheren't going anywhere and Silanah was in bed with the enemy (Rake).

Alll this was from the book Burak was reading in TTH.

[beru]

baruk read?

ïm pendiac today... sorry

[lobo the wolfman]

Leave me alone, l'm just a noob in the internetz afterall....

[dawnkiller]

Khellendros, on May 13 2009, 09:18 AM, said:

Do we have any idea who this one who refused to accept K'rul's bargain is supposed to be?

Judging from the pureblood list in MT p.432 -- assuming they are also the First Born -- we may have candidates. Eliminating those who definitely have aspects and/or are or have been seen running around, those candidates are: T'iam, Okaros, Karosis, Atrahal, Anthras, Kessobahn, Alkend, Karatallid, and Korbas. (I include T'iam because TMK we have no idea her stance in all the path-shaping.)

I also thought we might be able to narrow it down by looking at the warrens until I realized that if the dragon never joined up with K'rul then its aspect was unlikely to be found in his bloodstream. If that's the case, the Otataral Dragon seems like a contender, as it nulls magic, or else it's something we simply haven't seen at all. Another possibility is that the dragon's aspect would manifest in a form of magic we've never seen to be accessible by humans and Tiste, as the rest of K'rul's magic seems to be . . . so what does that leave, Omtose Phellack? Because, barring Sinn's dismantling of it in RG, I don't think we've ever seen a non-Jaghut make use of it, whereas we've now seen both Kurald Galain and Kurald Thyrllan made use of by humans in RotCG.

[beru]

i dont think enny of the elder mages actually did cast the magick in rotc tey were just channeling it

[dawnkiller]

beru, on May 14 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

i dont think enny of the elder mages actually did cast the magick in rotc tey were just channeling it

Heuk actually managed a full unveiling, which everyone thought was because the Malazans had smuggled in an Andii, so it was seriously unusual. Unusual enough that what looked like Draconus himself made a personal appearance to check it out. We have only Silk's word that what he unveiled in Li Heng was true Kurald Thyrllan (and I was wondering if he had some Liosan blood anyway), but the KG manifestation was the real deal. He also referred to it being attributable to his god's, not goddess', growing presence in the world. If the theories about Draconus being originally an elder god of night are true, then it gives humans their own link to that power. And since Draconus has been until very recently locked in Dragnipur, it might explain why a human-aspected expression of pure dark has been absent from the warrens for so long. Though the timing seems a little off, as RotCG happens a little before TtH, IIRC the rise of Treach's cult was beginning even before Fener truly fell, so when the panetheon gets shaken up there seem to be ripples backwards as well as forwards.

Slightly more relevant aside: Rashan, according to Beak in RG, is the same as Kurald Emurlahn -- "the blue candle," I think he called it when he was describing what kind of magic the Edur used. There's also a quote that was recently floating around the forum from one of the chapter-starters in HoC that stated Rashan is the kind of darkness that is seen only in the presence of light (ie a shadow) or something like that. What I want to know is if Dragons shape the human and Tiste warrens separately, or if an elder-shaping covers them all. Ampelas is the shaper of KE, so does that make him technically Rashan-aspected as well, or what?

[Abyss]

HoosierDaddy, on May 13 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

...Huh? This is the second time the HFE and portals has been brought up. I am massively missing something here. Where is this discussed, Abyss?

Skywalker, on May 14 2009, 01:22 AM, said:

...
So we are left with three events: Rake and Co lock SD with dragons inside, the Shattering of KE, and the sacrifice of the Bonecaster to secure the gate to SD. I think it was in that order.
...

So beasts - not DRAGONS, just beasts, maybe enkaral and wyval and the like - were pouring from the SD gate that wouldn't let dragons pass. So the Imass bonecaster does her thing and double seals it, this time against everything.

That makes the timeline, which isn't important, make a bit of sense methinks

In DG it is explained (Heboric to Kulp and Felisin Angrier) that when the Human First Empire went shapeshifter and insane, the Imass came running and started killing shapeshifters all over the place.

In MT we find out that the HFE had gates/portals/something that allowed them to travel from one place to another, presumably from the centre of the Empire on 7C to colonies like Leth.

When everybody starting changing into rabid lemmings. they also used those gates. The beasts referred to are crazed shapeshifters pouring from 7C onto Leth. One Imass clan tried to stop this. They couldn't so their bonecaster used her own soul to close the gate. Somehow this ended with her as a lump of crystal and her clan's souls in a pocket of SD.

To be clear, she sealed the HFE's gates. She did NOT seal the gate to SD.

As far as we know, none of this has anything to do with the eleient, krul and whatever the draconic soletaken did to the SD gate.

But apparently at the time of MT when Featherwitch and Udinaas show up, something about the HFE gates links them to SD.

dawnkiller, on May 14 2009, 12:09 PM, said:

beru, on May 14 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

i dont think enny of the elder mages actually did cast the magick in rotc tey were just channeling it

Heuk actually managed a full unveiling, which everyone thought was because the Malazans had smuggled in an Andii, so it was seriously unusual. Unusual enough that what looked like Draconus himself made a personal appearance to check it out. We ...

Not exactly. Heuk was a High Priest. Not a High Mage. There's a difference. Draconus or whoever that was showed up because Heuk invoked the link between god and worshipper to use all that juicy KG power to counter the Guard's mages. Anyone's guess whether the god was summoned, just dropped by to see wassap, or was some sort of manifestation caused by the Ritual Heuk used. I lean towards the last because all indications are that it's Draconus who Heuk worships as 'Lord of Night' or something, but at that moment Drac is still in Dragnipur, but we learned in MoI that Elder Gods can have chunks of themselves acting more or less independently (K'rul/Keruli).

To be clear, Heuk could, and probably is, a mage of some skill - some priests seem to have their own powers beyond what their god gives them, see Banaschar for example, who uses Mokra which has nothing to do with his D'reky worm rot powers - , but his power came from his god, not his own, unlike Silk who used his own strength to channel KT.

- Abyss, notes worshipping a worm may not be a great way to get dates...

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on May 14 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

When everybody starting changing into rabid lemmings. they also used those gates. The beasts referred to are crazed shapeshifters pouring from 7C onto Leth. One Imass clan tried to stop this. They couldn't so their bonecaster used her own soul to close the gate. Somehow this ended with her as a lump of crystal and her clan's souls in a pocket of SD.

To be clear, she sealed the HFE's gates. She did NOT seal the gate to SD.

As far as we know, none of this has anything to do with the eleient, krul and whatever the draconic soletaken did to the SD gate.

But apparently at the time of MT when Featherwitch and Udinaas show up, something about the HFE gates links them to SD.

Ah, I'd forgotten that. Okay, yeah, definitely two sealings -- the first to close the gates, the second some time later to try and staunch the flow of "blood" as the pocket SD warren bled out (the Bonecaster inside the gate in RG).

It's confusing, especially since the RG-Bonecaster was already "dead" when she tried to plug SD; it was noted that she failed because she herself was only a spirit-memory. --Lord, I hope it wasn't the spirit of the Crystalized Bonecaster. You should only have to seal one gate in your life. The reason that occurs is because the pocket of SD had, as mentioned, numerous gates within the cave everyone ended up going into/coming out of. So, basically, did the HFE turn a branch of Demelain into their own private Grand Central . . ? That may explain why all the dragons were turned towards that gate. It seems as if SD would have been sealed before the HFE got off the ground, so if they sensed something scuffling around outside they might crawl over to see what's up. (total speculation on my part, though.)

Quote

Not exactly. Heuk was a High Priest. Not a High Mage. There's a difference. Draconus or whoever that was showed up because Heuk invoked the link between god and worshipper to use all that juicy KG power to counter the Guard's mages. Anyone's guess whether the god was summoned, just dropped by to see wassap, or was some sort of manifestation caused by the Ritual Heuk used. I lean towards the last because all indications are that it's Draconus who Heuk worships as 'Lord of Night' or something, but at that moment Drac is still in Dragnipur, but we learned in MoI that Elder Gods can have chunks of themselves acting more or less independently (K'rul/Keruli).

To be clear, Heuk could, and probably is, a mage of some skill - some priests seem to have their own powers beyond what their god gives them, see Banaschar for example, who uses Mokra which has nothing to do with his D'reky worm rot powers - , but his power came from his god, not his own, unlike Silk who used his own strength to channel KT.

- Abyss, notes worshipping a worm may not be a great way to get dates...

Hm, true. The power of Fener et al is often used without being attributable to any particular warren, except maybe the Destriant of Fener, who IIRC used it to over-Denul.

(Speaking of worms, am I just blanking or is every season accounted for but Spring? Worm of Autumn, Wolves of Winter, Tiger/Boar of Summer . . .)

[Cougar]

I'll just add to this debate:

the dragon who talks to Kallor is not Tulas Shorn, unless Erikson has made a mistake, that is categorical. The undead Dragon remembers how it died, Tulas Shorn in his convo with ST and Cot goes out of his way to say he does not remember how he died. This seems a rather deliberate clue

This post has been edited by Cougar: 14 May 2009 - 06:52 PM

[Abyss]

dawnkiller, on May 14 2009, 01:58 PM, said:

...
Hm, true. The power of Fener et al is often used without being attributable to any particular warren, except maybe the Destriant of Fener, who IIRC used it to over-Denul.

(Speaking of worms, am I just blanking or is every season accounted for but Spring? Worm of Autumn, Wolves of Winter, Tiger/Boar of Summer . . .)

Actually, Fener is Tennes, according to Duradan in GotM.

And i could be wrong but isn't Fanderay aspected to the Spring season?

Cougar, on May 14 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

I'll just add to this debate:

the dragon who talks to Kallor is not Tulas Shorn, unless Erikson has made a mistake, that is categorical. The undead Dragon remembers how it died, Tulas Shorn in his convo with ST and Cot goes out of his way to say he does not remember how he died. This seems a rather deliberate clue

we've been back and forth on this one. On the one hand, multiple dragon skeletons busted out of the ground when Gruntle and the TTG mage were in Hood's Warren. On the other hand, only one was seen to leave the warren. also, Shorn sembles when he stops to speak with people. The dead dragon doesn't semble when it stops to speak with Kallor.

Of course, whatever the case Hood may have manipulated events.

- Abyss, skeletal.

[Tarcanus]

I know the topic has moved beyond this by now, but imo:

Consort = as-yet-unnamed Dragon the Na'ruk is watching in the DoD Prologue.

Quote

The Consort writhes upon a tree and whispers with madness of the time of his release.

Quote

Its unhuman eyes fixed unblinking on the source of all that blood – a dragon, nailed to a latticework of enormous wooden beams, the spikes rust-hued and dripping with condensation. Suffering roiled down from this creature, a death denied, a life transformed into an eternity of pain.

The latticework of beams can be considered a representation of a tree, the criss-crossing of the latticework being branches. We know it's not dead because 'suffering roiled down from this creature, a death denied' and I'm fairly certain that enough suffering can cause some madness. Finally, if I were this dragon, I would be thinking of when I could be released, too.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Tarcanus, on May 14 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

I know the topic has moved beyond this by now, but imo:

Consort = as-yet-unnamed Dragon the Na'ruk is watching in the DoD Prologue.

Quote

The Consort writhes upon a tree and whispers with madness of the time of his release.

Quote

Its unhuman eyes fixed unblinking on the source of all that blood – a dragon, nailed to a latticework of enormous wooden beams, the spikes rust-hued and dripping with condensation. Suffering roiled down from this creature, a death denied, a life transformed into an eternity of pain.

The latticework of beams can be considered a representation of a tree, the criss-crossing of the latticework being branches. We know it's not dead because 'suffering roiled down from this creature, a death denied' and I'm fairly certain that enough suffering can cause some madness. Finally, if I were this dragon, I would be thinking of when I could be released, too.

good points, so that adds a new candidate.

in respect to the seasons dealy, isn't gedderone aspected to spring?

[dawnkiller]

Re: Spring. I think you're right about Gedderone/Fancydance. Thanks, that was really bugging me. And . . . oh hell, thought.

Quote

'In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K'rul's bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, burst skyward from the towers in great flurry yet even these were not united beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose . . . Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.' -- The questionable 'Dark and Light' manuscript, TtH p.33

. . . oh man, I lose. I just realized. The "First Born" -- that might not mean eleint, but the KCCM -- the First Born of dragons.

That explains the towers, since eleint don't seem to build. Wasn't the rare above-ground KCCM city at the beginning of RG destroyed by dragons? And as for factions, the KCCM were decimated by their own civil wars. If nothing else, the Short-Tails wouldn't surrender their magic to the Matrons. And we know at least the KCCM assassins can develop wings . . . not to mention the skykeeps. And since the Edur and Andii were already engaged in a war against the KCCM when Silchas got knifed, we know Rake and Osserc had already drunk from Tiam.

[D'rek]

Gedderone is aspected to Spring, but she's more of a local goddess, specific to Darujhistan and environs as far as we know. Fanderay is aspected to winter just like Togg. The Gedderone Festival starts with the "flaying of Fanderay", ie winter is dying so spring can begin.

dawnkiller, on May 15 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

Quote

'In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K'rul's bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, burst skyward from the towers in great flurry yet even these were not united beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose . . . Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.' -- The questionable 'Dark and Light' manuscript, TtH p.33

. . . oh man, I lose. I just realized. The "First Born" -- that might not mean eleint, but the KCCM -- the First Born of dragons.

That explains the towers, since eleint don't seem to build. Wasn't the rare above-ground KCCM city at the beginning of RG destroyed by dragons? And as for factions, the KCCM were decimated by their own civil wars. If nothing else, the Short-Tails wouldn't surrender their magic to the Matrons. And we know at least the KCCM assassins can develop wings . . . not to mention the skykeeps. And since the Edur and Andii were already engaged in a war against the KCCM when Silchas got knifed, we know Rake and Osserc had already drunk from Tiam.

Interesting idea on the KCCM. It's plausible but I don't think it fits with the rest of the passage, though I could see how the KCCM were pissed at the dragons if sorcery was stolen from them or something weird like that. The factions-civil wars thing maybe holds up, but afawk the short-tail rebellion only happened for sure at Morn, though its very likely it happened on Jacuruku instead. They were still allied against the Tiste on Lether, for example.



The 'Dark and Light' text I feel refers mostly to soletaken eleint. The trend of killing Tiam and getting yer eleint groove on began growing and tons of folks developed the might of being a soletaken eleint - "Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar" - as long as the gates to SD were open and unguarded folks could continue going in to hunt Tiam, and with the draconic power you had a ton of ambitious warlords developing factions among the realms, much like Scabby. So, for example, Osserc "eliminating the pretenders" I think is him going and killing all the soletaken Liosan to cease the division amongst the Liosan. Then the dragons (whichever ones) were forced back into SD and the realm sealed so that Tiam would be inaccessible to the multitudes of ambitious warlord-wannabes.

The bursting from the towers is all the soletaken discovering that K'rul had invested sorcery in the First Born (the Shapers) and I gather this limited their own power - the "inheritance" of being Eleint, somehow.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 15 May 2009 - 09:36 PM

[Abyss]

dawnkiller, on May 15 2009, 01:29 PM, said:

. . . oh hell, thought.

Quote

'In this day there was war among the dragons. The First Born had all but one bowed necks to K'rul's bargain. Their children, bereft of all that they would have inherited, burst skyward from the towers in great flurry yet even these were not united beyond rejecting the First Born. Factions arose . . . Anomander, Osserick and others had already tasted the blood of Tiam, and now there came more with raging thirst and many a demonic abomination was spawned of this crimson nectar. So long as the Gates of Starvald Demelain remained open, unguarded and held by none, the war would not end, and so the red rain descended upon all the Realms.' -- The questionable 'Dark and Light' manuscript, TtH p.33

. . . oh man, I lose. I just realized. The "First Born" -- that might not mean eleint, but the KCCM -- the First Born of dragons.

That explains the towers, since eleint don't seem to build. Wasn't the rare above-ground KCCM city at the beginning of RG destroyed by dragons? And as for factions, the KCCM were decimated by their own civil wars. If nothing else, the Short-Tails wouldn't surrender their magic to the Matrons. And we know at least the KCCM assassins can develop wings . . . not to mention the skykeeps. And since the Edur and Andii were already engaged in a war against the KCCM when Silchas got knifed, we know Rake and Osserc had already drunk from Tiam.

Diagree. Sure, there is a comment about the KC being 'first born of dragons' but we know not to trust anything anyone says. Ever.

We do know that the purebloods helped Krul with the Shaping (per Kalse and co's chat with Cots in TB). And we know there has been conflict between the purebloods and the soletaken (TB again, they aren't in chains because it feels good).

'Towers' could as easily be mountains. We saw Silanah in TtH take up residence on top of the palace and just sit there unmoving.

We don't really know whether Rake and Ossi and others predate the pureblood eleint or not. It's never been determined whether purebloods sprang from Mommy D or just showed up in Chaos or SD one day. It would help if we knew more about Tiam but we can only work from hints, which leaves it wide open whether she was an Elder God who made dragons, an Elder God who became draconic soletaken by drinking eleient blood, an eleient who became 'elder god soletaken' some other way, or something else alltogether. All we do know is that except for Rud, EVERY draconic soletaken either drank from or was borne by Tiam (The Galayn Lord in GotM is probably one of those 'demonic abomination' thingies the quote refs.

So that 'First Born of Dragons' thing is our only hint right now at any link. Plus we have the draconic Tiste killing Kchain during the Tiste invasion, and 'dragons', pure or soletaken, destroying KC cities per RG.

So there's a lot we don't know, but my take is that quote refs the eleient/soletaken conflict, not KC.

- Abyss, ...also notes Tiam is a skanky ho....

[D'rek]

Abyss, on May 15 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

All we do know is that except for Rud, EVERY draconic soletaken either drank from or was borne by Tiam (The Galayn Lord in GotM is probably one of those 'demonic abomination' thingies the quote refs.

Wanted to point out: It is possible that you can drink her blood without killing her and get your draconiness (a la Osserc, ref MT).

Ooh, on that note just remembered something I wanted to point out from previous in the thread: I don't think we actually know who Sukul's father is. She never addresses Osserc as father, that's all Menandore. (for that matter, we have a confirmed source for Sheltatha being Scabby's daughter?) All 3 are daughters of Tiam though.

[ISTN4249]

Here's something thats been on my mind since reading this forum and starting to put more things together (its damn hard to remember all the bits and pieces) and after finishing the prologue for DoD. its a mish mash of parts so just read the quotes and bold parts and try to follow my logic. this is actually a 2 part ponderance.

dawnkiller, on May 13 2009, 08:26 AM, said:

Starvald Demelain:

The shattering of bones and wings had come from age, not violence. None of these beasts were sprawled out in death. None revealed gaping wounds. They had each settled into their final postures.
'Like blue flies on the sill of a window,' Udinaas had said. 'Wrong side, trying to get out. But the window stayed closed. To them, maybe to everyone, every thing. Or . . . maybe not every thing.' And then he had smiled, as if the thought had amused him. -- RG p.788-789

Quote

Draconean Blood Is Weird:

Where their blood had spilled out onto the ground wraiths had gathered like flies to sap and were now ensnared . . . as the blood darkened, fusing with the lifeless soil; and, when at last the substance grew indurate, hardening into glassy stone, those ghosts were doomed to an eternity trapped within that murky prison. -- RG p.1

Maybe those dragons didnt die of old age waiting for the gate to open? Maybe they realized there was no escape AND/OR found a way to send out their souls to pass through and beyond in an attempt to escape. Maybe their souls got stuck in the blood of Tiam, hardenening and becoming trapped forever. The fate of the dragons is just the first part of the larger assumption/theory.

Following that:

Quote

Draconean blood hardening into stone . . . sinking, vanishing from this realm. Falling through world after world. To reappear, finally, solid and impermeable, in other realms, depending on the blood's aspect, and these were laws that could not be challenged. Starvald Demelain, the blood of dragons and the death of blood. -- RG p.2

Do we know about any hardened stone objects flying through realms and worlds, finally reappearing solid and impermeable? Sounds a wee bit like the jade giants doesnt it? Could those jade giants be dragon/beast souls, wraiths/ghosts of dead dragons/beasts, taken on a living shape, passing through world after world and finally crashing back into Wu long after Tiam's death and not just a by product of the Chained God's fall.



From the description of the jade giants it doesnt seem as likely but its worth a consideration. I'm interested in hearing what information might slash the theory apart and in doing so refresh my memory some

[dawnkiller]

TMK the blood-attracted wraiths have only ever referred to Tiste Andii and Edur, though we've seen other ghosts of all species, including dragon (Telorast and Curdle). The dragons sending their souls elsewhere is a possibility, though -- we've also seen a cross-species-soul-transplant in Kettle (Forkul Assail into human).

As for the jade giants being like draconic blood in their ability to cross warrens (a quality shared only by blackwood so far, BTW), then that would imply they are originally aspected to Wu, hence why they end up there. However, I think the jade giants are stated as being truly alien, akin to the Stormriders? RotCG, at least, refers to their influence as an infection or somesuch, and since K'rul has done the whole pathshaping thing I think dragons, or at least their flavors, are technically sanctioned now, though still not native (like the various Tiste).

Also, while this may be a speciesist take on it, from Heboric's visions (DG or HoC, I forget which) where we've seen the JGs' composite dialogues and personalities, they've seemed humanoid, or at least concerned with philosophical issues and viewpoints traditionally associated as such . . .

However, since they DO seem to be composite thingies, I can see your gist even if I question the specifics -- perhaps the JGs have nothing to do with actual dragon's blood, but is however some substance LIKE it, which gathers and traps unwary beings and brings them through worlds. Something to think about, anyway.

[lord of tragedy]

don't want to ask this in public but if kettle was assail then ST and cotillion have allied themselves with the forkul assail who create the azath house in SD?
didn't the assail release a massive demon in bonehunters/ mt? that was draconic?

if the kcm are the first born of dragons then does that mean that the dragon of serc that mappo and icarium found crucified was killed by them and their revenge is to destroy those who took krul's bargain and in doing so destroy krul too?
who is the 'she is our last hope' that the youngster mentions?