[D'rek]

ISTN4249, on May 17 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

Here's something thats been on my mind since reading this forum and starting to put more things together (its damn hard to remember all the bits and pieces) and after finishing the prologue for DoD. its a mish mash of parts so just read the quotes and bold parts and try to follow my logic. this is actually a 2 part ponderance.

dawnkiller, on May 13 2009, 08:26 AM, said:

Starvald Demelain:

The shattering of bones and wings had come from age, not violence. None of these beasts were sprawled out in death. None revealed gaping wounds. They had each settled into their final postures.
'Like blue flies on the sill of a window,' Udinaas had said. 'Wrong side, trying to get out. But the window stayed closed. To them, maybe to everyone, every thing. Or . . . maybe not every thing.' And then he had smiled, as if the thought had amused him. -- RG p.788-789

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Draconean Blood Is Weird:

Where their blood had spilled out onto the ground wraiths had gathered like flies to sap and were now ensnared . . . as the blood darkened, fusing with the lifeless soil; and, when at last the substance grew indurate, hardening into glassy stone, those ghosts were doomed to an eternity trapped within that murky prison. -- RG p.1

Maybe those dragons didnt die of old age waiting for the gate to open? Maybe they realized there was no escape AND/OR found a way to send out their souls to pass through and beyond in an attempt to escape. Maybe their souls got stuck in the blood of Tiam, hardenening and becoming trapped forever. The fate of the dragons is just the first part of the larger assumption/theory.

Following that:

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Draconean blood hardening into stone . . . sinking, vanishing from this realm. Falling through world after world. To reappear, finally, solid and impermeable, in other realms, depending on the blood's aspect, and these were laws that could not be challenged. Starvald Demelain, the blood of dragons and the death of blood. -- RG p.2

Do we know about any hardened stone objects flying through realms and worlds, finally reappearing solid and impermeable? Sounds a wee bit like the jade giants doesnt it? Could those jade giants be dragon/beast souls, wraiths/ghosts of dead dragons/beasts, taken on a living shape, passing through world after world and finally crashing back into Wu long after Tiam's death and not just a by product of the Chained God's fall.



From the description of the jade giants it doesnt seem as likely but its worth a consideration. I'm interested in hearing what information might slash the theory apart and in doing so refresh my memory some

That's a pretty cool theory, actually. To refute Dawnkiller a wee-bit, we've certainly seen shades/wraiths in a number of warrens, an example being in DG: when Kulp opens a gate between the Nascent and the Shadow realm a horde of wraiths assault the gate trying to force it closed against the deluge of water pouring into the realm. To be honest, the "hardening into glass which traps the wraiths" bit always makes me think of the mini-warren of Kurald Galain that Iron Bars and Seren Pedac travel through in MT, the entrances of which is a giant rock of obsidian and within are trapped the shades of Tiste Andii...

As for how it could connect to the Jade Statues, there is the similarity of solid structures encasing people/wraiths, but there's the unanswered difference of why the Statues fly around in space or whatever while the dragon-blood-glass simply translocates through the realms into its appropriate realm. The only thing I can think of in this regard would be perhaps that the dragon-blood-glass is Path and Warren magic-related, so it stays in place, but the Jade, being objects forged in Chaos (Rake says it in MoI), are related to magic from before the Houses or Holds, of Wandering as Draconus/Paran puts it, and so the Statues fly around "wandering" or migrating or some such.

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 17 2009, 10:37 PM, said:

That's a pretty cool theory, actually. To refute Dawnkiller a wee-bit, we've certainly seen shades/wraiths in a number of warrens, an example being in DG: when Kulp opens a gate between the Nascent and the Shadow realm a horde of wraiths assault the gate trying to force it closed against the deluge of water pouring into the realm. To be honest, the "hardening into glass which traps the wraiths" bit always makes me think of the mini-warren of Kurald Galain that Iron Bars and Seren Pedac travel through in MT, the entrances of which is a giant rock of obsidian and within are trapped the shades of Tiste Andii...

I couldn't remember if we'd seen any instances of any wraiths/ghosts other than those of Tiste attracted to draconic blood -- since IIRC the blood thing only started appearing in MT, we haven't had a lot in the way of opportunity for comparison. We know ghosts are curious about power (someone like Bottle attracts them, apparently), but as for stuff like wraiths and dragon's blood it's hard to tell if there's some element of aspect/attraction involved (possibly because MD and KG are components to K'rul's warren structure?), or if it'd have the same effect on spirits of any shade.

Even if the Tiste/draconic connection is true it doesn't make the JG theory invalid, though (it'd make sense that different substances attract different spirits, and the JGs seem like a pretty foreign substance) -- I'm just wondering if the detail about what's attracted to draconic blood is a subtle detail about the relationship between the two species. Anyone remember if there's any passages according the blood a similar attraction to non-Tiste spirits?

D'rek, on May 17 2009, 10:37 PM, said:

As for how it could connect to the Jade Statues, there is the similarity of solid structures encasing people/wraiths, but there's the unanswered difference of why the Statues fly around in space or whatever while the dragon-blood-glass simply translocates through the realms into its appropriate realm. The only thing I can think of in this regard would be perhaps that the dragon-blood-glass is Path and Warren magic-related, so it stays in place, but the Jade, being objects forged in Chaos (Rake says it in MoI), are related to magic from before the Houses or Holds, of Wandering as Draconus/Paran puts it, and so the Statues fly around "wandering" or migrating or some such.

Could the space thing not be metaphorical of warren travel rather than true interstellar travel, though? I can't think of where it was mentioned, but I swear there's some passage about how things that huge could have come to the world without being noticed, and someone speculates it might be that they don't fall, they appear -- and a buy-product of their appearance is otataral. TMK this was never confirmed, but it's a possibility.

[Sinisdar Toste]

dawnkiller, on May 18 2009, 01:46 PM, said:

Could the space thing not be metaphorical of warren travel rather than true interstellar travel, though? I can't think of where it was mentioned, but I swear there's some passage about how things that huge could have come to the world without being noticed, and someone speculates it might be that they don't fall, they appear -- and a buy-product of their appearance is otataral. TMK this was never confirmed, but it's a possibility.

much like the intrusion of the skykeep that icarium and mappo discover, that ganath trapped. quite possible that a warren gate opened up and dumped the giants directly into the bedrock of what then became otataral island

[dawnkiller]

Just to go off topic in my own thread, this regarding the JGs' travel from Heboric in tBH p.417: "The despair of the souls in their vast jade prisons, spinning unchecked through the Abyss, that terrible despair - it could have remained unheard, unwitnessed, and so there would have been no false promises of salvation."

Since it's Abyss with a capital A and there's no sign of alcohol, I'm taking that as evidence it's not interstellar, but inter-dimensional. Whether or not Abyss is synonymous with Chaos I couldn't say, but if anyone wants to be really thorough maybe they can check out TtH where we learn about Bellurdan's escape back into Wu -- I want to say he escaped the Abyss, but cannot remember exactly. It might have some relevance. I seem to recall he hitched a ride on a machine that had trapped another god, so wherever it was, it may present the same pull for gods and other such entities that a particular warren presents for spilled dragon blood. If gods arise from the Abyss, maybe they can sink back when they lose followers, and somesuch.

(BTW, while I still can't make a call on where the dying god came from, upon checking the DoD prologue I can report Heboric and Fener are both totally chillin' in the Abyss.)

[Abyss]

I tend to agree that Seren's Wall of Souls in MT was one of these sheets of blood that sank through the worlds and landed on Leth.

The prologue doesn't really tell us where Heboric is, tho is hints that he can observe events going on. It says even less about Fener, who we last saw hanging out in a basement on Leth.

The common element between the Jade Giants and eleint blood seems to be an 'attraction' to souls. There's also the link to Otataral - Otataral island seems to be a phenomenon occruing because of the JGs landing there, but in TB when Spite releases Dejim, she invoked SD, which in turn is described as otataral. I'm not sure it goes any further than two separate forces triggering a similar reaction in the 'natural' world, but the possibilities are there.

- Abyss, soul man.

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on May 19 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

The common element between the Jade Giants and eleint blood seems to be an 'attraction' to souls. There's also the link to Otataral - Otataral island seems to be a phenomenon occruing because of the JGs landing there, but in TB when Spite releases Dejim, she invoked SD, which in turn is described as otataral. I'm not sure it goes any further than two separate forces triggering a similar reaction in the 'natural' world, but the possibilities are there.

Yeah, Spite's usage is confusing. The exact phrasing of that is 'In the name of Starvald Demelain, I invoke the ritual of release.' And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sand, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral. (tBH p.11). The fact it's described as a force rather than a substance is especially annoying, although since we've seen an otataral-aspected dragon I suppose we should have known that it was more than just, you know . . . mineral. I sort of wish I knew what the hell definition of entropy SE was using -- I can only assume it's the one about the tendency of matter and energy to progress to a state of "inert uniformity" or whatever, which would explain why it flattens magic. It may also explain why it's found around the JGs - it's "foreign" magic, and Wu's natural laws are trying to compensate for the intrusion or something.

Of course, if entropy is SD's true face, that raises some interesting questions. The dragons were restricted to SD to keep magic from becoming "unpredictable" -- the fact their home-warren is otataral-aspected may explain why it's immune from the sort of damage Wu might theoretically have suffered. Also, if SD's aspect is otataral, it might imply the otataral dragon is SD's own version of a "shaper," as Ampelas is Kurald Emurlahn's (which would throw a whole new level of WTF onto the chaining).

(Personally, I still maintain the theory that the JGs are gods that "died" and ended up sucking in the souls of their followers, since followers shape and sustain the god and we've seen the system cuts both ways, but I'm too lazy to find where I originally made the argument. : )

[Abyss]

Note tho that in DG a bit after Heboric touches the Giant Green Finger (ew), Kulp looks at him and says that he sees Otataral and the jade power in conflict, and the otataral was losing. There's a difference in exposure - we see in RCG that with enough washing you can get of out of your system, while the jade power was internalized by Heboric. That said, Trake, a 'new', not elder, God, was able to aspect Heboric, notwithstanding that we see in TB and now the prologue that Heboric's link to the Jade was not gone.

This also goes some ways towards explained the otataral dragon in HoC - by nature, all eleint are aspected to Starvald Demelain. In theory even if they take on another aspect, the original aspect to SD remains, tho all i'm relying on there are a few comments regarding Andii soletaken in GotM and re Rake in MoI. So if Otataral and SD are in fact linked, the otty dragon may in fact be one of the mostest 'pure' aspected eleint out there.

And now my head hurts. what were we talking about?

- Abyss, ...wheeEeeee...

[Hetan]

My view on Spite's addition to the mix with regards to the freeing of Dejim Nebrahl was not that it was necessarily otataral that she added, but her own warren (SD) and that it was the SUM of the mix that created the otataral. Absolutely nothing to back it up with though

[lord of tragedy]

why is it when hetan posts in a thread i always think its a critical thread of major significance. the dragon of serc, the shaper of sky, has been crucified as has the shaper of SD, the otarral dragon. so are these dragons being executed by the firstborn of dragons, namely kcm as revenge for accepting krul's bargain? are the kcm attacking magic as a means of reasserting their power?

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on May 19 2009, 03:35 PM, said:

Note tho that in DG a bit after Heboric touches the Giant Green Finger (ew), Kulp looks at him and says that he sees Otataral and the jade power in conflict, and the otataral was losing. There's a difference in exposure - we see in RCG that with enough washing you can get of out of your system, while the jade power was internalized by Heboric. That said, Trake, a 'new', not elder, God, was able to aspect Heboric, notwithstanding that we see in TB and now the prologue that Heboric's link to the Jade was not gone.

Internalized by more than Heboric -- Blues and whatshis (Yath?) were both the most "contaminated" by the JG. It was throwing off the ritual, I believe, presumably because the power was foreign. The odd thing is that I'm pretty sure they aren't the only ones who touched it (IIRC Ho asked Blues what he heard when he touched the JG, indicating they all had at some point) -- so how exactly the JGs infect people, and if there is any sort of criteria to that, is still in question.

I don't know if Trake's status had anything to do with his ability to aspect Heboric despite the jade/otataral thing, though. At one point Paran was walking around with Oponn, Hound blood, and burdgeoning Master of the Deckitude, so I suspect multiple influences can exist in a single being. Trake also had a path beaten for him by Fener, whose seat he'd leapt into.

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This also goes some ways towards explained the otataral dragon in HoC - by nature, all eleint are aspected to Starvald Demelain. In theory even if they take on another aspect, the original aspect to SD remains, tho all i'm relying on there are a few comments regarding Andii soletaken in GotM and re Rake in MoI. So if Otataral and SD are in fact linked, the otty dragon may in fact be one of the mostest 'pure' aspected eleint out there.

Considering we've heard aspected blood migrates through warrens to settle in the one it's aspected to, I'd be more inclined to say that the aspect trumps the aspect of SD. Going through off what Hetan said (it was said other-thread as well, and it's another possibility), it's also possible that SD serves as, say, the last color in a spectrum -- combine all colors and you get white, for example, which would invalidate the SD = entropy theory. I do sort of like the idea that the Otty Dragon is a major, "pure" part of their pantheon, though -- Lostra and Pearl took it as some kind of aberration, so to find out otherwise would make me happy.

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the dragon of serc, the shaper of sky, has been crucified as has the shaper of SD, the otarral dragon. so are these dragons being executed by the firstborn of dragons, namely kcm as revenge for accepting krul's bargain? are the kcm attacking magic as a means of reasserting their power?

It's hard to say. Icarium swears the KCCM had to have no knowledge of Sorrit, and yet in the DoD prologue we see a vision of a Nah'ruk standing, satisfied, before an impaled one. Of course, it's also a mistake to think all members of a single race share opinions (even the Imass argued about the Jaghut), so it could be a couple of individuals going off for . . . something. They may have been touched by the CG's influence just like the Edur, but we just don't know.

Of course, if the Nah'ruk are still around and ensnared by the CG, that'd make the long-tails the guys we should perforce side with here. Which is kinda cool after all the previous build they've gotten.

[Jorram]

Some points:

(1)

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but his power came from his god, not his own, unlike Silk who used his own strength to channel KT.

Actually, Silk calls upon, presumably Osserc, or even Father Light, much in the way Heuk did. So he might just as well be priest-mage.

From RotCG, TPB, p. 145

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I summon you! [...] Come! You who have been gone so long! Grant us a glimpse of that which has gone out from the World! Show us how it was when Light first cleaved Night! Bless us with a vision of Pure Undiluted Light, Kurald Liosan!

(2)

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Diagree. Sure, there is a comment about the KC being 'first born of dragons' but we know not to trust anything anyone says. Ever.

The quote is from the thoughts of Redmask. As per the DoD prologue we can see that the human vessel of the Matron is given abilities and knowledge of the KCCM. Moreover, there is no other way a simple Letherii child who was grown up among the Awl, would know anything else about the KCCM (they even completely misused their name). So it must have been insider information (from the Matron), and thus pretty reliable, as far as it goes.

(3)

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It would help if we knew more about Tiam but we can only work from hints, which leaves it wide open whether she was an Elder God who made dragons, an Elder God who became draconic soletaken by drinking eleient blood, an eleient who became 'elder god soletaken' some other way, or something else alltogether

Oh come on! ;p Tiam is everywhere mentioned as the mother of all dragons, the uber dragon, the proto-dragon or have it what you want. How the hell could she be elder god soletaken who drank eleint blood to become one, if presumably there were no other dragons before her?

(4)

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It's hard to say. Icarium swears the KCCM had to have no knowledge of Sorrit, and yet in the DoD prologue we see a vision of a Nah'ruk standing, satisfied, before an impaled one.

It is very hard to say at which point did this happen because it is all in Heboric's head and thus absolutely screwed up in every aspect, including timeline. For all we know, it is possible this vision refers to a past so ancient that the Nah'ruk were still up and kicking in their original form (remember that they were "brought back to life" by the KCCM). Also, can you give quotes about that KCCM not knowing Sorrit? Seems strange to me.

(5)

re: dragon's blood examples. I vaguely remember someone seeing hardened dragon blood after it was mentioned for the first time (I believe in Cot/3 dragons conversation), but I can't quite place where.

What about the strange crystals encountered by Osserc, Rake (and presumably Scabandari) in RotCG?

From RotCG, TPB, p. 357-358

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It resolved into a heap of gigantic darkly smoke crystals, as large as a building [...] (Osserc: ) This is new, yes, the weakest of these strange invasions into our Realms [...] (Osserc: ) It is not even of our existence! It is alien - very possibly a threat. [...] (Rake: ) It is my interpretation that this house is of Emurlahn [...] Threaten one and you threaten all

Seems to me these crystals could well be Emurlahn-aspected draconean blood that settles somewhere between KL and KT (the setup is of a world covered in mist and apparently there is at least some light, because Kyle can see all of it, so it is like neither KT nor KL, yet they speak of "invasion into their realms", so maybe exactly the borderline?).

However it would be kinda odd if Osserc and Rake didn't know about draconean blood and its properties and couldnt tell Emurlahn from not Emurlahn.
Also there is the question of whether K'rul's bargain had already happened at that time (I have absolute difficulties placing this event in the timeline)

The use of the word "house" is also very strange.

Incidentally, is the one at the end really Scabandari, and is the woman the QoD? I think so, because it is the same woman who saves Kyle from the CG and Ereko clearly shows he knows her, so since his patron is the QoD... But this is maybe offtopic.

(6)

re, Krul's bargain.... another post, have to go

[dawnkiller]

Jorram, on May 19 2009, 10:24 PM, said:

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Diagree. Sure, there is a comment about the KC being 'first born of dragons' but we know not to trust anything anyone says. Ever.

The quote is from the thoughts of Redmask. As per the DoD prologue we can see that the human vessel of the Matron is given abilities and knowledge of the KCCM. Moreover, there is no other way a simple Letherii child who was grown up among the Awl, would know anything else about the KCCM (they even completely misused their name). So it must have been insider information (from the Matron), and thus pretty reliable, as far as it goes.

I concur the sentiment is reliable, especially since it's also stated in the narration very early in RG -- the only question is whether the Dark and Light manuscript refers to the literal first born (more dragons after the first generation of purebloods) or the metaphorical first born (the KCCM). The confusion's open to the interpretation. I never miss the opportunity to throw in the crazy tract myself. <G>

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(3)

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It's hard to say. Icarium swears the KCCM had to have no knowledge of Sorrit, and yet in the DoD prologue we see a vision of a Nah'ruk standing, satisfied, before an impaled one.

It is very hard to say at which point did this happen because it is all in Heboric's head and thus absolutely screwed up in every aspect, including timeline. For all we know, it is possible this vision refers to a past so ancient that the Nah'ruk were still up and kicking in their original form (remember that they were "brought back to life" by the KCCM). Also, can you give quotes about that KCCM not knowing Sorrit? Seems strange to me.

Oops, I was unclear. I meant that the KCCM have no knowledge of Sorrit's murder, not necessarily of Sorrit -- the exact quote of Icarium's speculation to that effect is in the very first post (it's from tBH).

But yeah, I don't have a lot of faith in the linearity of Heboric's visions -- I think linear times received its fatal wound around the time the Eres showed up, so.

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What about the strange crystals encountered by Osserc, Rake (and presumably Scabandari) in RotCG?

From RotCG, TPB, p. 357-358

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It resolved into a heap of gigantic darkly smoke crystals, as large as a building [...] (Osserc: ) This is new, yes, the weakest of these strange invasions into our Realms [...] (Osserc: ) It is not even of our existence! It is alien - very possibly a threat. [...] (Rake: ) It is my interpretation that this house is of Emurlahn [...] Threaten one and you threaten all

Seems to me these crystals could well be Emurlahn-aspected draconean blood that settles somewhere between KL and KT (the setup is of a world covered in mist and apparently there is at least some light, because Kyle can see all of it, so it is like neither KT nor KL, yet they speak of "invasion into their realms", so maybe exactly the borderline?).

However it would be kinda odd if Osserc and Rake didn't know about draconean blood and its properties and couldnt tell Emurlahn from not Emurlahn.
Also there is the question of whether K'rul's bargain had already happened at that time (I have absolute difficulties placing this event in the timeline)

The use of the word "house" is also very strange.

One of the peculiarties of the Shadow warren is that it has also been called the House of Shadow (meaning the warren and the house are one in the same), though since it's almost 11pm damned if I can dig up the quote -- I think it might have been stated in tBH. Alternate theory is that perhaps the crystals were the larval stage of an Azath. We really know little of when the Azath came into being, only that they're ancient enough to be accorded a place in the Holds.

It could also be the crystalized form of blood, as you say -- maybe Ampelas' (aspected to KE), though Eloth and Silanah prove two dragons can share the same aspect.

Yet another possibility is that it's a manifestation of the human-accessible warren of Shadow, Rashan (or one of its associated warrens, like Meanas), which would explain why Rake describes it as "of" Emurlahn, while Osserc regards it as "alien". This is where it'd really help to know the time period it happened in, but ah well . . .

[lobo the wolfman]

<!--quoteo(post=603815:date=May 20 2009, 01:24 PM:name=Jorram)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jorram @ May 20 2009, 01:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=603815"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What about the strange crystals encountered by Osserc, Rake (and presumably Scabandari) in RotCG?

From RotCG, TPB, p. 357-358

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It resolved into a heap of gigantic darkly smoke crystals, as large as a building [...] (Osserc: ) This is new, yes, the weakest of these strange <b>invasions</b> into our Realms [...] (Osserc: ) It is not even of our existence! It is alien - very possibly a threat. [...] (Rake: ) It is my interpretation that this <b> house</b> is of Emurlahn [...] Threaten one and you threaten all<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Seems to me these crystals could well be Emurlahn-aspected draconean blood that settles somewhere between KL and KT (the setup is of a world covered in mist and apparently there is at least some light, because Kyle can see all of it, so it is like neither KT nor KL, yet they speak of "invasion into their realms", so maybe exactly the borderline?).

However it would be kinda odd if Osserc and Rake didn't know about draconean blood and its properties and couldnt tell Emurlahn from not Emurlahn.
Also there is the question of whether K'rul's bargain had already happened at that time (I have absolute difficulties placing this event in the timeline)

The use of the word "house" is also very strange.

Incidentally, is the one at the end really Scabandari, and is the woman the QoD? I think so, because it is the same woman who saves Kyle from the CG and Ereko clearly shows he knows her, so since his patron is the QoD... But this is maybe offtopic.

<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I got the impression that the crystals was Shadow Keep before the sundering, and not something to do with dragon blood. The reason it would have been alien to Rake and Osserc was becasue it was neither Light or Darkness.

Just a crazy idea about the otataral dragon, what if it wasn't born that way but made that way. The other first born dragons where all aspected to different warrens with K'ruls deal, what if the OD was a mix of different warrens combined with the blood of SD, that all dragons would have, to make it that way. Then after that it was used to seal up the gate the CG come though, or to heal the wound made when K'rul took the damage of Jacuruku into himself.

What l'm saying is that it doesn't have to be a natural occurrence, that it could have been made that way.

Also just one more thing, SE's dragons, are they four legged or two back legs with wings? Just a small thing but i don't think he has made it clear .

[Tarcanus]

Crazy theory:

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It could also be the crystalized form of blood, as you say -- maybe Ampelas' (aspected to KE)

Perhaps the crystals are the roots of Ampelas Rooted.

[dawnkiller]

More dragon-oriented speculation here, as the gears have been turning. Rehashing a quote I already pulled:

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Grey-scaled bodies the size of oxen, muscle-bunched necks, taloned hands and feet. Long, sloping heads, jaws revealing rows of dagger-like teeth ad the pale gums that held them. Eyes the color of clay, the pupils vertical slits.
Loqcui Wyval. That is our name. Spawn of Starvald Demelain, the squalid children whom none would claim as their own. We are as flies spreading across a rotting feast, one realm after another. D'isthal Wyvalla, Enkar'al, Trol, we are a plague of demons in a thousand pantheons. -- MT p.142-143

And some new ones about Dejim Nebrahl:

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T'rolbarahl, demonic creations by the hand of Dessimbelackis himself, long before the Dark Hounds took shape in the Emperor's mind. T'rolbarahl, misshapen errors in judgement, had been expunged, exterminated at the Emperor's own command. Blood-drinkers, eaters of human flesh, yet possessing depths of cunning even Dessimbelackis could not have imagined. And so, seven T'rolbarahl had managed to elude their hunters for a time, sufficient to impart something of their souls to a mortal woman, widowed by the Trell Wars and without family, a woman whom none would notice, whose mind could be broken, whose body could be made into a feeding vessel, a M'ena Mahybe, for the seven-faced D'ivers T'rolbarahl child swiftly growing within her.
Born into a night of terror. The T'lan Imass, had they found Dejim, would have acted without hesitation: dragging forth those seven demonic souls, binding them into an eternity of pain, their power bled out, slowly and incrementally, to feed the T'lan bonecasters in their unceasing wars against the Jaghut. -- tBH p.8

His creator had meant him and his kind to be guardians of the First Empire. Thus the conjoining of bloods, making the sense of perfection strong, god-like. -- tBH p.356

Rather than Dessy using any old demon, I think the T'rolbarahl are wyval (and thus dragon) derived -- since Wyval mentioned "Trol" was one of the names they're known by, this may be a case of truth in advertising. The two definitely share some similar characteristics (muscled neck, talons, vertical pupils); the main distinction seems to be wyval have wings, but the second quote points out they're "misshapen".

As for what relevence this might have, we get the last quote mentioning "the conjoining of bloods". This has nothing to do with being a D'ivers, since the D'ivers ability came after seven individual T'rolbarahl found a Mhybe. (Aside: Guess we can assume that the basically unseen Jheck god from MT was also a T'rolbarahl, and probably one that underwent a similar cycle -- it was called a lizard-cat by the Crimson Guard who fought it, and Dejim Nebrahl is referred to as a "reptillian panther" on p.550 of tBH). I think that Dessy engaged in a little good old-fashioned genetic engineering, decided to grab from Starvald Demelain for part of his subjects, and then fused them with . . . something else. Probably a native creature, maybe a panther, since "weaving blood," as Sukul Ankhandu put it, appears to legitimize non-native influences. (Further support can be found in Bottle's musings on why the Throne of Shadow must be claimed by the child of an Edur and an Eres.)

I think this seems to gel with what we've heard of Dessy; the FE seems very big on Antiquity, and servants from Starvald Demelain seem sufficiently classy. I believe the T'rolbarahl were also referred to as Dessy's "answer to the elder gods", though for the life of me I can't figure out where it was said; if the Eleint are to SD what the elder gods are to KG, this would make a certain sense. It may have been thought that entities with wyval blood, being spawn of SD (and, in the absence of Tiam and real elient, presumably like Dragon Generic), would have allowed the FE's "guardians" to operate on a similar level. (Right before they rebelled like all good Frankensteinian creations and started eating the subjects.)

If Dessy had one hand in Starvald Demelain, it might somehow tie into the "migration path" of the Refugium, and perhaps also the strange posture of the dragons in the warren itself. Could be it wasn't just his own empire he screwed over.

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 21 May 2009 - 02:31 PM

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on May 19 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

It's hard to say. Icarium swears the KCCM had to have no knowledge of Sorrit, and yet in the DoD prologue we see a vision of a Nah'ruk standing, satisfied, before an impaled one. Of course, it's also a mistake to think all members of a single race share opinions (even the Imass argued about the Jaghut), so it could be a couple of individuals going off for . . . something. They may have been touched by the CG's influence just like the Edur, but we just don't know.

Of course, if the Nah'ruk are still around and ensnared by the CG, that'd make the long-tails the guys we should perforce side with here. Which is kinda cool after all the previous build they've gotten.

The Nah'ruk might not have known about the death of Sorrit at the time Iccy voiced his opinion, but after the few from tBH killed Ganath and climbed down to reclaim their skykeep, they would have found Sorrit there anyways...

[Jorram]

@dawnkiller - very good theory about the nature of the Trol'barahl! (though I can't say I am convinced it's true, there is just not enough evidence)

Particularly the possibility of the Pack being Trol'barahl is a great catch, I am surprised nobody noticed before (or maybe they did )

[dawnkiller]

Jorram, on May 21 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

@dawnkiller - very good theory about the nature of the Trol'barahl! (though I can't say I am convinced it's true, there is just not enough evidence)

Particularly the possibility of the Pack being Trol'barahl is a great catch, I am surprised nobody noticed before (or maybe they did )

I figured I might as well toss it up here, since we're wandering around in anything that seems vaguely connected to SD. So at this point, anything that has scales. However, it also introduces another wrinkle in the eleint/Soletaken story. We've seen wyval can "infect" people -- Udinaas was out-and-out possessed due to special circumstances (I'm fairly sure it's not normal for wyval to literally explode out of someone's body), but at the time of the initial attack some of the Sengars were talking about it, specifically its blood, and whether or not Udinaas was "infected". It's hard to tell what precisely wyval blood is known to impart -- the visions Udinaas had (clouded thoughts or something, I think it was called), a Soletaken-like infection, fever and madness, or eleint-like shapeshifting, but it does seem to imply something that the Edur had seen before.

(And I very much doubt I'm the first to catch the Pack/T'rolbarahl thing . . . but we can pretend that I am.)

[D'rek]

dawnkiller, on May 21 2009, 06:39 PM, said:

Jorram, on May 21 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

@dawnkiller - very good theory about the nature of the Trol'barahl! (though I can't say I am convinced it's true, there is just not enough evidence)

Particularly the possibility of the Pack being Trol'barahl is a great catch, I am surprised nobody noticed before (or maybe they did )

I figured I might as well toss it up here, since we're wandering around in anything that seems vaguely connected to SD. So at this point, anything that has scales. However, it also introduces another wrinkle in the eleint/Soletaken story. We've seen wyval can "infect" people -- Udinaas was out-and-out possessed due to special circumstances (I'm fairly sure it's not normal for wyval to literally explode out of someone's body), but at the time of the initial attack some of the Sengars were talking about it, specifically its blood, and whether or not Udinaas was "infected". It's hard to tell what precisely wyval blood is known to impart -- the visions Udinaas had (clouded thoughts or something, I think it was called), a Soletaken-like infection, fever and madness, or eleint-like shapeshifting, but it does seem to imply something that the Edur had seen before.

(And I very much doubt I'm the first to catch the Pack/T'rolbarahl thing . . . but we can pretend that I am.)

Not sure about the idea of infection, could just be that Wyval transmit feverous infections when they wound folk, or else that they have a venomous gland/saliva/etc. Or not

Unfortunately you're not the first for the whole Pack/T'rohlbarahl thing. It's been debated before, but in the end the only description for the Pack is "lizard cats" and some heavy breathing when Bugg talks to it, not enough information to say one way or another. Could very well be SE had the Pack and then decided he liked it and wished he hadn't killed it off so he made up Dejim Nebrahl.

There's a couple problems with the idea anyway, to me the biggest of which is that T'rohlbarahl were not necessarily created at the time of the Beast Ritual, so the HFE hunted them down themselves, thus why did The Pack get away (assuming here that The Pack couldn't start an entire religion of a soletaken culture from within the Azath). And of course, there's the whole issue that T'rohlbarahl are not D'ivers, so The Pack would be very strange indeed (it's not like DN, because The Pack demonstrates its ability to transform from 1 shape to 6 when Bugg visits, whereas DN doesn't seem to control his numbers -> he numerates when he feeds and thats it).

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 22 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

Not sure about the idea of infection, could just be that Wyval transmit feverous infections when they wound folk, or else that they have a venomous gland/saliva/etc. Or not

Unfortunately you're not the first for the whole Pack/T'rohlbarahl thing. It's been debated before, but in the end the only description for the Pack is "lizard cats" and some heavy breathing when Bugg talks to it, not enough information to say one way or another. Could very well be SE had the Pack and then decided he liked it and wished he hadn't killed it off so he made up Dejim Nebrahl.

There's a couple problems with the idea anyway, to me the biggest of which is that T'rohlbarahl were not necessarily created at the time of the Beast Ritual, so the HFE hunted them down themselves, thus why did The Pack get away (assuming here that The Pack couldn't start an entire religion of a soletaken culture from within the Azath). And of course, there's the whole issue that T'rohlbarahl are not D'ivers, so The Pack would be very strange indeed (it's not like DN, because The Pack demonstrates its ability to transform from 1 shape to 6 when Bugg visits, whereas DN doesn't seem to control his numbers -> he numerates when he feeds and thats it).

Do you happen to have an approximate page number or timeframe for Bugg's visit? I was only skimming MT and so the final confrontation between it and the Crimson Guard was the only one I found. (Also, anticlimactic much?)

The T'rohlbarahl were definitely created before the Beast Ritual, since it was "long before" Dessy started rocking the Deragoth -- the hunt began before the HFE imploded, because DN was born as a D'ivers to the Mhybe on the eve of its destruction, so certainly some escaped -- maybe making use of a gate in the chaos. (It wouldn't be the first, since the Errant appears to have originated in the HFE but ended up on Lether himself . . . somehow.) The Pack was also pursued by the Seregahl before their imprisonment, too, and managed to escape them because it was too fast.

Although I'm not so sure DN was unable to replicate/reduce like a normal D'ivers (which seems to be what the Pack behaves like, if it started as one and became six later) -- when the Nameless Ones invoke Denul on his behalf her regains sensation in his body, singular. So while we never saw him recombine, that doesn't mean he couldn't -- he was also 7-souled, so it could be he just preferred the autonomy. Or maybe losing bodies prevents D'ivers from reintegrating until they feed enough to spawn the normal number, hard to say. We still don't know a whole lot about how that works. (Though again, bloodfly guy would be in some trouble...)

However, what does make both the Pack and DN similar -- providing the single form Bugg met was its default and it wasn't just some Soletaken/D'ivers prodigy like Ryl -- is that they appear to be the first examples of either non- or semi-human D'ivers we've seen. To my knowledge, we've never seen eleint or demonic D'ivers of any stripe, though we have seen Soletaken of both. I doubt the Pack was a complete throw-away reference, because SE has a habit of starting to foreshadow one or two books before something features. Though whatever the Pack is, it's one of a couple examples of reptillian-things -- like the orthen (those rat-things from RG, originally bred as food by the KCCM), and the lizard-bear Karsa runs into in tBH. Stuff either from SD, the KCCM days, or both, maybe . . .

I will say one thing that did puzzle me was when Corlo was asked how many the Pack numbered, he replied "Six, their favorite number." (MT p.628) I don't know if he meant the species, beings from the HFE, or what. Numbers like 3 and 7 have significance in some cultures, so it's be a nice piece of trivia to know.