[Sinisdar Toste]

just had a few counter-points. they're in bold

dawnkiller, on May 22 2009, 01:12 PM, said:

D'rek, on May 22 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

Not sure about the idea of infection, could just be that Wyval transmit feverous infections when they wound folk, or else that they have a venomous gland/saliva/etc. Or not

Unfortunately you're not the first for the whole Pack/T'rohlbarahl thing. It's been debated before, but in the end the only description for the Pack is "lizard cats" and some heavy breathing when Bugg talks to it, not enough information to say one way or another. Could very well be SE had the Pack and then decided he liked it and wished he hadn't killed it off so he made up Dejim Nebrahl.Then killed him off, HA

There's a couple problems with the idea anyway, to me the biggest of which is that T'rohlbarahl were not necessarily created at the time of the Beast Ritual, so the HFE hunted them down themselves, thus why did The Pack get away (assuming here that The Pack couldn't start an entire religion of a soletaken culture from within the Azath). And of course, there's the whole issue that T'rohlbarahl are not D'ivers, so The Pack would be very strange indeed (it's not like DN, because The Pack demonstrates its ability to transform from 1 shape to 6 when Bugg visits, whereas DN doesn't seem to control his numbers -> he numerates when he feeds and thats it).

Do you happen to have an approximate page number or timeframe for Bugg's visit? I was only skimming MT and so the final confrontation between it and the Crimson Guard was the only one I found. (Also, anticlimactic much?)

The T'rohlbarahl were definitely created before the Beast Ritual, since it was "long before" Dessy started rocking the Deragoth -- the hunt began before the HFE imploded, because DN was born as a D'ivers to the Mhybe on the eve of its destruction, so certainly some escaped -- maybe making use of a gate in the chaos. (It wouldn't be the first, since the Errant appears to have originated in the HFE but ended up on Lether himself . . . somehow.) The Pack was also pursued by the Seregahl before their imprisonment, too, and managed to escape them because it was too fast. The Seregahl were pursuing the Pack within the Azath grounds. after the tower died the seregahl killed everyone but the pack, silchas and sheltatha.

Although I'm not so sure DN was unable to replicate/reduce like a normal D'ivers (which seems to be what the Pack behaves like, if it started as one and became six later)not later, from one moment to the next, as though he were a megazord, six bodies into one mega-body. at least that was my impression -- when the Nameless Ones invoke Denul on his behalf her regains sensation in his body, singular. So while we never saw him recombine, that doesn't mean he couldn't -- he was also 7-souled, so it could be he just preferred the autonomy. Or maybe losing bodies prevents D'ivers from reintegrating until they feed enough to spawn the normal number, hard to say. We still don't know a whole lot about how that works. (Though again, bloodfly guy would be in some trouble...)

However, what does make both the Pack and DN similar -- providing the single form Bugg met was its default and it wasn't just some Soletaken/D'ivers prodigy like Ryl -- is that they appear to be the first examples of either non- or semi-human D'ivers we've seen. To my knowledge, we've never seen eleint or demonic D'ivers of any stripe, though we have seen Soletaken of both. I doubt the Pack was a complete throw-away reference, because SE has a habit of starting to foreshadow one or two books before something features. Though whatever the Pack is, it's one of a couple examples of reptillian-things -- like the orthen (those rat-things from RG, originally bred as food by the KCCM), and the lizard-bear Karsa runs into in tBH. Stuff either from SD, the KCCM days, or both, maybe . . .

I will say one thing that did puzzle me was when Corlo was asked how many the Pack numbered, he replied "Six, their favorite number." (MT p.628) I don't know if he meant the species, beings from the HFE, or what. Numbers like 3 and 7 have significance in some cultures, so it's be a nice piece of trivia to know.

[dawnkiller]

Sinisdar Toste, on May 22 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

Although I'm not so sure DN was unable to replicate/reduce like a normal D'ivers (which seems to be what the Pack behaves like, if it started as one and became six later)not later, from one moment to the next, as though he were a megazord, six bodies into one mega-body. at least that was my impression

Dahahaha. I'd still like to get a page-number so I can read it, but I'm totally okay with being wrong when it elicits a Power Rangers metaphor.

[MTS]

Isn't the "lizard-bear", the one Karsa bashes its head in, a K'Chain Nah'Ruk? Doesn't Halfpeck or someone in MT claim that the Pack looked like lizard-cats, as well? The reptilian thing is interesting, as there seems to be quite a similarity between Dejim's appearance and the Pack's. Whether this has any correlation with dragons though...SE you sneaky bastard.

[dawnkiller]

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 23 2009, 09:51 AM, said:

Isn't the "lizard-bear", the one Karsa bashes its head in, a K'Chain Nah'Ruk?

Two different creatures -- Karsa found and fought a Nah'ruk early on (the one freed from an old KCCM-fortress by Samar Dev's home), and much later they crossed trails with the lizard-bear in a forest on their way to confront the Tiste Edur who were slaughtering some of the natives. I think the lizard-bear was just an animal, very probably something once-native to either Kaschan or SD; he noted that it was displaced, and definitely in the wrong kind of terrain for something of its bulk. How it got there in the first place is anyone's guess.

Speaking of Nah'ruk, another incidental quote from tBH p. 572 regarding the site of Sorrit's death as Ganath goes to repair the ritual:

Quote

Draconean blood had been spilled, although that in itself was not enough. The chaos between the warrens had also been unleashed, and it had devoured Omtose Phellack as boiling water does ice.
Yet her sense of the sequence of events necessary for such a thing to happen remained clouded, as if time itself had been twisted within that once-floating fortress. There was outrage locked in the very bedrock, and now, a most peculiar imposition of . . . order. ...
Ganath pulled her unhuman gaze from the dark fissure - in time to see, flowing across the flat rock to either side, and behind her, a swarm of shadows - and now figures, huge, reptillian, all closing in on where she stood. ...
Heavy mattocks slashed down, chopping through flesh, then bone. ... Massive clawed feet, scaled, wrapped in strips of thick hide, kicking up dust close to her face. ...
She understood, suddenly, that strange sense of order. K'Chain Che'Malle, a recollection stirred to life once more, after all this time. They had returned, then. But not the truly chaotic ones. No, not the Long-Tails. These were the others, servants of machines, of order in all its brutality. Nah'Ruk.
They had returned.

Whole lot of information here -- most importantly, maybe, that long-tails are chaotic and short-tails are order. Weirdest, though, is that the Nah'ruk can flow across flat rock in a "swarm of shadows". This doesn't appear to fit anything we've ever seen of the KCCM or their brand of magic, which seems more aspected towards gravity and time (the two with Redmask did seem to be stealthy, but that was never explicitly stated as anything beyond physical skill). Maybe it's just free-association talking, but my first thought regarding guardians of order and unconventional modes of transportation was the T'lan Imass . . .

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Of course this means that Kallor was completely wrong when he saidthat it was the long-tails who wanted to put an order to Chaos and as such created the Rent at Morn. Although it is said that there wasa great work behind the translating of the KCCM language by Kallor's historians it does seem a bit strange to destroy one of the few things we had know about these creatures, even for SE.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 23 May 2009 - 03:40 PM

[MTS]

dawnkiller, on May 24 2009, 01:20 AM, said:

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 23 2009, 09:51 AM, said:

Isn't the "lizard-bear", the one Karsa bashes its head in, a K'Chain Nah'Ruk?

Two different creatures -- Karsa found and fought a Nah'ruk early on (the one freed from an old KCCM-fortress by Samar Dev's home), and much later they crossed trails with the lizard-bear in a forest on their way to confront the Tiste Edur who were slaughtering some of the natives. I think the lizard-bear was just an animal, very probably something once-native to either Kaschan or SD; he noted that it was displaced, and definitely in the wrong kind of terrain for something of its bulk. How it got there in the first place is anyone's guess.

Speaking of Nah'ruk, another incidental quote from tBH p. 572 regarding the site of Sorrit's death as Ganath goes to repair the ritual:

Quote

Draconean blood had been spilled, although that in itself was not enough. The chaos between the warrens had also been unleashed, and it had devoured Omtose Phellack as boiling water does ice.
Yet her sense of the sequence of events necessary for such a thing to happen remained clouded, as if time itself had been twisted within that once-floating fortress. There was outrage locked in the very bedrock, and now, a most peculiar imposition of . . . order. ...
Ganath pulled her unhuman gaze from the dark fissure - in time to see, flowing across the flat rock to either side, and behind her, a swarm of shadows - and now figures, huge, reptillian, all closing in on where she stood. ...
Heavy mattocks slashed down, chopping through flesh, then bone. ... Massive clawed feet, scaled, wrapped in strips of thick hide, kicking up dust close to her face. ...
She understood, suddenly, that strange sense of order. K'Chain Che'Malle, a recollection stirred to life once more, after all this time. They had returned, then. But not the truly chaotic ones. No, not the Long-Tails. These were the others, servants of machines, of order in all its brutality. Nah'Ruk.
They had returned.

Whole lot of information here -- most importantly, maybe, that long-tails are chaotic and short-tails are order. Weirdest, though, is that the Nah'ruk can flow across flat rock in a "swarm of shadows". This doesn't appear to fit anything we've ever seen of the KCCM or their brand of magic, which seems more aspected towards gravity and time (the two with Redmask did seem to be stealthy, but that was never explicitly stated as anything beyond physical skill). Maybe it's just free-association talking, but my first thought regarding guardians of order and unconventional modes of transportation was the T'lan Imass . . .

Ah right, my bad. The point you raise about the Nah'Ruk converging in a swarm of shadows is interesting...I for one think that there might be a connection with Shadow here (either through ST or the CG), but I really have no evidence to back it up. I don't have outrageous quote-fu like you have, dawnkiller
It could be, though, that's it's just a figure of speech and we're reading too much into it, but I doubt it.

[dawnkiller]

Bauchelain the Evil, on May 23 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

Of course this means that Kallor was completely wrong when he saidthat it was the long-tails who wanted to put an order to Chaos and as such created the Rent at Morn. Although it is said that there wasa great work behind the translating of the KCCM language by Kallor's historians it does seem a bit strange to destroy one of the few things we had know about these creatures, even for SE.

Hm, I thought the Rent at Morn was supposed to be for revenge -- I do vaguely remember Kallor discussing what he knew of the KCCM, but it's been a bit. However, the "order to Chaos" thing could also be refering to the death-curse on MD, which may be worth bringing back up. To respam Dolorous Menhir's quotes in the KCCM Matron thread (complete with his personal theories, because I thought them solid):

Quote

"Kaschan sorcery," Fear said after a time, " is born of sounds our ears cannot hear, formed into words that loosen the bindings that hold all matter together, that hold it to the ground [i.e. gravity]. Sounds that bend and stretch light, as a tidal inflow up a river is drawn apart at the moment of turning [i.e. relativity]. With this sorcery, they fashioned fortresses of stone that rode the sky like clouds [the Sky Keeps were powered by gravity magic]. With this sorcery, they turned Darkness in upon itself with a hunger none who came to close could defy, an all-devouring hunger that fed first and foremost upon itself [a black hole]." His voice was strangely muted as he spoke.

"Kaschan sorcery was sent into the warren of Mother Dark, like a plague. Thus was sealed the gate from Kurald Galain to every other realm. Thus was Mother Dark driven into the very core of the Abyss, witness to an endless swirl of light surrounding her - all that she would one day devour, until the last speck of matter vanishes into her. Annihilating Mother Dark [MD has been turned into a black hole that will destroy everything]. Thus the Kaschan, who are long dead, set upon Mother dark a ritual that will in her murder. When all Light is gone. When there is naught to cast Shadow, and so Shadow too is doomed to die."

"When Scabandari Bloodeye discovered what they had done, it was too late. The end, the death of the Abyss, cannot be averted. The journey of all that exists repeats on every scale, brothers. From those realms too small for us to see, to the Abyss itself. The Kaschan locked all things into mortality, into the relentless plunge towards extinction. This was their vengeance. An act born, perhaps, of despair. Or the fiercest hatred imaginable. Witness to their own extinction, they forced all else to share that fate."

His brothers were silent. The dull echoes of Fear's last words faded away.

Then Rhulad grunted. "I see no signs of this final convergence, Fear."

"A distant death, aye. More distant than one could imagine. Yet it will come."

"And what is that to us?"

"The Tiste Invasions drove the Kaschan to their last act. Father Shadow earned the enmity of every Elder god, of every ascendant. Because of the Kaschan ritual, the eternal game among Dark, Light and Shadow would one day end. And one day, all of existence."

Then, in RG, we get Fear speculating on what precisely that may have entailed.

Quote

'. . . The Edur women hold that the Kechra bound all that exists to time itself, thus assuring the annihilation of everything. Their great crime. Yet that death -- I have thought hard on this -- that death, it does not have the face of chaos. The very opposite, in fact.'
'Chaos pursues . . . It is the Devourer. Mother Dark scattered its power, its armies, and it seeks every to rejoins, to become one again, for when that happens no other power -- not even Mother Dark -- can defeat it.'
--Fear and Clip speculate, RG p.616-617

(Yes, I'm cannibalizing my own past quotes.)

It could be that the KCCM, by defining a future point of termination, have in fact aided order somehow -- though it didn't appear so on the face of it. The Jaghut also tried to war against death itself. The KCCM curse may have been similar, but on a vastly larger scale.

Still, that does seem to be a conflict . . . then again, I believe dragons are also considered "chaotic" in the sense that their presence on Wu could disorder the system of magic and make it unpredictable, but they don't seem to be Chaotic with a capital C. Maybe it's a matter of degree? Hm.

Mappo's Travelling Sack, on May 23 2009, 10:47 AM, said:

Ah right, my bad. The point you raise about the Nah'Ruk converging in a swarm of shadows is interesting...I for one think that there might be a connection with Shadow here (either through ST or the CG), but I really have no evidence to back it up. I don't have outrageous quote-fu like you have, dawnkiller
It could be, though, that's it's just a figure of speech and we're reading too much into it, but I doubt it.

The Shadow connection is interesting to me as well, even though it's impossible to be solid on it, even down to whether it's literal or a figure of speech -- there's really no connection we've seen besides the detail the KCCM hive from DoD lives in a city called Ampelas Rooted, and Ampelas is currently chained in Shadow and is the shaper of KE. Still, interesting thought. Shadow's been contested by Edur, by dragons, apparently by demons, and is currently held by humans. There's really no reason the KCCM might not also have tried to lay some claim after its sundering, though admittedly we've seen no evidence of it thus far. However, since the warren of Shadow has thus far been pretty central to the plot, it could be a fair gamble they wouldn't, at the very least, mind making use of it.

(And I have a Secret. It's easy to have quote-fu when you're recording them as they occur in your re-read. : )

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

On a really really sided-side note... I think the lizard bear that Karsa and Samar end up facing is the guardian from the road of the dead that Paran, Ganath, Hedge and the Trygalle Trade Guild are mosying up in search of the Deragoth... Mostly because he draws the card, big ugly wailing thing goes through it... Not long after... big ugly lizardbear meets Karsa...

*scurries away*

[D'rek]

I believe the best explanation for Morn is that the Matron was (desperately, perhaps) trying to harness and control Chaos itself, possibly to defend her colony? Can't remember who or where this explanation comes from... maybe Pran Chole.

Hellian's Keg Lid, on May 23 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

On a really really sided-side note... I think the lizard bear that Karsa and Samar end up facing is the guardian from the road of the dead that Paran, Ganath, Hedge and the Trygalle Trade Guild are mosying up in search of the Deragoth... Mostly because he draws the card, big ugly wailing thing goes through it... Not long after... big ugly lizardbear meets Karsa...

*scurries away*

I agree, especially because of Karsa's words about how the creature did not belong in that forest and also since the one occurs shortly after the other. However, the Guardian had only one eye while the lizard-bear in the forest has 2, so either they're not the same or SE made a slip...

[dawnkiller]

D'rek, on May 24 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

Hellian's Keg Lid, on May 23 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

On a really really sided-side note... I think the lizard bear that Karsa and Samar end up facing is the guardian from the road of the dead that Paran, Ganath, Hedge and the Trygalle Trade Guild are mosying up in search of the Deragoth... Mostly because he draws the card, big ugly wailing thing goes through it... Not long after... big ugly lizardbear meets Karsa...

*scurries away*

I agree, especially because of Karsa's words about how the creature did not belong in that forest and also since the one occurs shortly after the other. However, the Guardian had only one eye while the lizard-bear in the forest has 2, so either they're not the same or SE made a slip...

I don't think the number of eyes on the lizard-bear Karsa found was ever mentioned (not much was except the size), so I concede to HKL. For the hell of it, the guardian's description is:

Quote

There was no outrunning it. Scaled and bear-like, the beast massed as much as the Trygalle carriage, and its long, loping run covered more ground than the terrified horses could manage...The red and black, ridged scales covering the animal were each the size of bucklers, and mostly impervious to missile fire...It possessed a single, overlarge eye, faceted like an insects and surrounded by a projecting ridge of protective bone. Its massive jaws held double rows of sabre teeth, each one as long as a man's forearm. Old battle-scars had marred the symmetry of the beast's wide, flat head. -- tBH p.400

We've never seen any mono-ocular KCCM-types (or any other besides aptorians, I think). Ganath notes that since it's from the Jaghut Underworld, the guardians are "primal forces" before even Hood's control -- there are weird ochre-bugs there, too. Not to entirely exclude something originally from the KCCM realm or SD, which might have been retained through Jaghut mythology (I'm not quite sure the geneological timeline for the races, but the KCCM were certainly before the Tiste invasions and co-existed around the time of the Jaghut and Forkul Assail, so the timing may be right). Or, you know, likely just a random demon.

Still, kinda curious now -- it's old, old Jaghut mythology, and it'd be kind of interesting to see what their bogeymen were before the T'lan Imass.

[Dammon]

dawnkiller, on May 25 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

D'rek, on May 24 2009, 02:46 PM, said:

Hellian's Keg Lid, on May 23 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

On a really really sided-side note... I think the lizard bear that Karsa and Samar end up facing is the guardian from the road of the dead that Paran, Ganath, Hedge and the Trygalle Trade Guild are mosying up in search of the Deragoth... Mostly because he draws the card, big ugly wailing thing goes through it... Not long after... big ugly lizardbear meets Karsa...

*scurries away*

I agree, especially because of Karsa's words about how the creature did not belong in that forest and also since the one occurs shortly after the other. However, the Guardian had only one eye while the lizard-bear in the forest has 2, so either they're not the same or SE made a slip...

I don't think the number of eyes on the lizard-bear Karsa found was ever mentioned (not much was except the size), so I concede to HKL. For the hell of it, the guardian's description is:

Quote

There was no outrunning it. Scaled and bear-like, the beast massed as much as the Trygalle carriage, and its long, loping run covered more ground than the terrified horses could manage...The red and black, ridged scales covering the animal were each the size of bucklers, and mostly impervious to missile fire...It possessed a single, overlarge eye, faceted like an insects and surrounded by a projecting ridge of protective bone. Its massive jaws held double rows of sabre teeth, each one as long as a man's forearm. Old battle-scars had marred the symmetry of the beast's wide, flat head. -- tBH p.400

We've never seen any mono-ocular KCCM-types (or any other besides aptorians, I think). Ganath notes that since it's from the Jaghut Underworld, the guardians are "primal forces" before even Hood's control -- there are weird ochre-bugs there, too. Not to entirely exclude something originally from the KCCM realm or SD, which might have been retained through Jaghut mythology (I'm not quite sure the geneological timeline for the races, but the KCCM were certainly before the Tiste invasions and co-existed around the time of the Jaghut and Forkul Assail, so the timing may be right). Or, you know, likely just a random demon.

Still, kinda curious now -- it's old, old Jaghut mythology, and it'd be kind of interesting to see what their bogeymen were before the T'lan Imass.

Well, considering the Jaghut are to the KCCM what the T'lan Imass were to the Jaghut. You'd think that their boogeymen would look somewhat like the KCCM.

[Abyss]

Actually, the only other 'mono-ocular' types we've seen were aptorian demons, who are Shadow aspected. Since there didn't seem to be any link to Shadow, that's likely just a coincidence. Or is it...?

Telorast and Curdle, dead dragons, end up linking their souls to Tiste Andii bodies when Apsalar first encounters them in TB, in Meanas.... coincidence? i think NOT!!!!


- Abyss, ....or maybe it is...

[Hellian's Keg Lid]

Been a while since I looked at either passage, just popped into my head... Says something I look at HKL and wonder who that is for a few minutes

*retracts crappy idea*

[Tartheno Son of K'rul]

hello all... ok first time poster but been reading the forums for a bit... not sure if it's been noticed and the thread has kind of moved past but.. for the role of "Blood-drinker" what about Picker? Toc got her to drink one of those gourd or skull things full of blood in that shadowy canyon place when she during her out of body experience and after he followed the carrage out of Dragnipur.. I know.. might be a streach but hey.. seems like odd-ball theroy but they do seem to be abundant on these threads...
anyway if this makes no sense to anyone but me well then I apologize for rambling...

[Jorram]

A little topic necromancy

I'm not yet done with DoD but regarding the Reading of FW, it seems now a fair bet that the Consort in the reading is the Otataral Dragon (though presumably SE switched this title to Draconus at some point, but you know how it is with titles). Gate can still be either Clip or Menandore (both fit), Blood-Drinker post RG seems to me to be Sukul (the Silchas drinking Tiam's blood reference is waaaaay too vague in comparison, besides he didnt wait to be found, Kettle had him all the time, they were just waiting for the Azath to loosen up enough).

Regarding KCCM and firstborn of dragons...

[Sindriss]

I could use a clarification on something I read in the first post, not sure if it has been addressed later in the thread.

Quote

Known First-Generation Soletaken/Mixed Blood
Osserc, Scabandari, Anomandaris, Olar Ethil, Draconus, Silchas Ruin, K'rul

So, why is K'rul included in that list?

[MTS]

Well, Starvald Demelain is one chamber of his heart, so it makes sense he has access to the powers of the Eleint without being a pure one himself.

[D'rek]

Sindriss, on 15 February 2010 - 10:53 AM, said:

I could use a clarification on something I read in the first post, not sure if it has been addressed later in the thread.

Quote

Known First-Generation Soletaken/Mixed Blood
Osserc, Scabandari, Anomandaris, Olar Ethil, Draconus, Silchas Ruin, K'rul

So, why is K'rul included in that list?

I believe it's because he is listed by Rud Elalle in MT when Rud is listing off dragons.

[Jorram]

Further evidence that the Consort is Korabas (if any was still needed)

Quote

Enormous spikes pinned its forelimbs, holding the creature up against a massive, gnarled tree [...] Its wedge-shaped head, big as a migrant's wagon, hung down, streaming drool [...] "They will free it"

DoD, UK HC, p. 252 - Kalyth's vision of the OD

Compare with

Quote

The Consort writhes upon a tree and whispers with madness of the time of his release

[champ]

Hellian, on 23 May 2009 - 06:27 PM, said:

On a really really sided-side note... I think the lizard bear that Karsa and Samar end up facing is the guardian from the road of the dead that Paran, Ganath, Hedge and the Trygalle Trade Guild are mosying up in search of the Deragoth... Mostly because he draws the card, big ugly wailing thing goes through it... Not long after... big ugly lizardbear meets Karsa...

*scurries away*

love that scene, big ass bear shrieks like a girl and runs away n Samar Dev is like "what is it with him and monsters" had my laughin for ages picturing karsa chasing after a squealing tank