[Slow Ben]

Do you know why?


Cause they're both awesome.

[Use Of Weapons]

Slow Ben, on Jul 28 2009, 11:48 PM, said:

Cause they're both awesome.

Word.

[Abyss]

jitsukerr, on Jul 29 2009, 05:49 AM, said:

Slow Ben, on Jul 28 2009, 11:48 PM, said:

Cause they're both awesome.

Word.

- Abyss, QFT.

[RangerSG]

BTW -- How long does it take everyone to chew through these books... I didn't think I'd pressed "inhale" on my 1974 Read-o-Vac, but I doomed the first book fast. Do they become more meaty as the series progresses? (They all look about the same length on the bookshelf at Chapters).

-- Clu
[/quote]

Chew through? I devour them in about 2 days a shot. They do get more depth, you see different aspects of the world. The characters change in believable ways. But the prose style is consistent and the books are always very readable.

The one thing I will say is if you're looking to get away from Chicago for long stretches of time, you'll be disappointed. Chicago is where the whole series is set. I happen to like the DresdenVerse version of Chicago, and I think there's enough there to support what they do. It's also consistent with the Urban Fantasy aspect of the story.

(sorry, quote got fudged) :S

This post has been edited by RangerSG: 30 July 2009 - 12:08 AM

[Ribald]

I have to admit that I am huge fan of the Dresden series. I love the development of the paranormal and supernatural worlds within the series. The only thing I dislike, and it is a minor quibble really, is the fact that every book seems to follow the same narrative arc. There are three basic sections: 1. Introduction - Harry gets a case, there is a strange incident and usually a new character is introduced. 2. Development - Harry gets the tar knocked out of him at least once, the various introductory threads reveal themselves to be linked. 3. Ending - Harry pieces everything together, comes up with a plan that he refuses to tell anyone, the million to one shot pays off and nine out of ten plot threads are neatly tied up.

Now I am not knocking Butcher for doing this. As far as I am concerned he can go on churning these out until the end of time. But they are very samey in this regard. On the other hand Butcher is probably the best of the modern urban fantasists I have read and is a delightful counter to the usually moronic Mary-Jane-esque vampire romance series out there (you know of which I speak).

If you can excuse the sweeping gender stereotype, Dresden is like the boy version of the Sookie Stackhouse books or the anti-Twilight. And for this reason I have to admire Butcher. He does modern fantasy by the numbers but he does it well. His universe is well developed, the rules of magic don't change dramatically, the worlds of the faerie and the vampire courts are intriguing and well constructed, the overall plot arcs continue to develop. Characters drop in and out but there is a sense that they change and develop off page and there are only a few Deus ex Machina moments. Even though Harry regularly seems to pull off the impossible, he gets the tar beaten out of him regularly, and there is always a price to pay for his wins. An additional point is that he blends the real world with the fantastic world almost seamlessly, and this should get more respect that it does. The inclusion of magical, supernatural and metaphysical beings into modern-day Chicago could have been handled badly, and yet Butcher makes it look easy.

The dialogue is only occasionally clunky and generally the characters are a delight to read. There is enough witty banter to entertain, as well as enough pathos and emotion to make any sacrifices actually feel like sacrifices. There are few out and out heroes, they all seem to have their own personal flaws and foibles. The villains of the series have been slightly less successful, but usually they are complex and semi-realistic. I can't remember off-hand any Ming the Merciless moments of maniacal laughing and 'curses, foiled again'. So all in all I enjoy the Dresden series and usually look forward to the next one.

I miss the Marlowe-esque detective noir feel of the first few that has disappeared from the latter books, but as the series continues to develop and the arcs grow in complexity and become increasingly inter-textual I can live with that.

[Abyss]

I agree with your points of love and even some of your critique but if you're drawing any analogy between Harris' Sookie stackhouse and Butcher's Dresden that doesn't end with 'Dresden is massively infinitely superior to this dull unsophisticated vampire romance twaddle' then i disagree with that point.

I find Harris' stuff is trite, unoriginal and exemplar of much of what can go wrong with urban fantasy. thinly veiled mary sue'esque protagonist, check. diverse male normals and supernaturals drooling over her innate cuteness/humanness/naivete/booty, check. staunchly moral protagonist out to do what's right, check. loves the bad boys, check, check, vomit in my mouth a little and check.

Curiously, i think TRUE BLOOD is an excellent tv series, but it jettisons most of the crap and goes places tv often doesn't, whereas the books gleefully frolic in places books have, and are, going daily with depressingly predictable results.

Dresden doesn't get the girl. Dresden gets his ass handed to him repeatedly. Dresden doesn't always have a clean victory. I put Butcher head, shoulders and a few more decapitated vampire heads stuff'd with garlic, chives and basted in a nice cheese sauce above Harris on that front.

- Abyss, ...served with a nice chianti, of course.

[QuickTidal]

Wow, Abyss thought that point was worth posting thrice!

...and I agree with him wholeheartedly on every point.

*digs around in pockets* now if only I could find out how to become a member of the Abyssmal army.....hmmmmm.

[Ribald]

@Abyss... I agree with you totally that Butcher is a superior writer and that the Dresden Files are a far superior series. But I do think that a comparison can be made between the Sookie Stackhouse books and the Dresden ones, even if it is to say that they are both urban fantasies which cater toward a certain wish fulfillment aspect in readers. While Myers and Harris suffer from truly horrendous Mary-Sue elements Butcher is not afraid to throw in his own version. While Harry is not constantly surrounded by amazingly beautiful admirers and isn't 'the most specialist girl in all the land' you have to admit that he has gone from a middling wizard in the first book to a total bad ass, as well as having a few characters go on about him being special, unique and being the only one that could sort out the mystery. What makes Butcher so much better than the others is that he never lets these elements dominate the writing, and he always makes his characters pay the price for their power.

As the Sookie Stackhouse series progressed I think Harris' writing improved, perhaps not as much as I would have wanted, and certainly not far enough away from the romance elements, but that is her niche audience, and those are the stories she wants to write. Her world has become more developed, some of the plot lines have become more sophisticated and she has developed some fairly interesting characters. And a major point in its favour is that it isn't the Twilight series, which even I had a hard time getting through without throwing up.

The TV series on the other hand is fascinating, if occasionally a little too focused on sex to be watched in company with certain family members. There is a darkness to it and a gritty realism that takes the twee edge of Harris' plots and tones down some of the Mary-Sue elements due to its ensemble nature. Although I am still waiting for someone to ask "So if vampires are undead and you are sleeping with one, does that make you a necrophiliac?"

[Use Of Weapons]

I think it's important to differentiate between a Mary-Sue and a 'hero'. Dresden is clearly the hero of his series, and character development alone would dictate that he changes and grows throughout the series, and generally comes out on top. That's emphatically not the same as a Mary-Sue, who has some or all of the following characteristics:

* Never changes (as already perfect)
* Suddenly revealed never-hinted-at abilities
* Romantic interest from _all_ desirable characters
* Immediate and all-encompassing understanding of plot points

[Ribald]

A very valid point.


My point was that as a central protagonist Dresden has Mary-Sue characteristics, not that Harry was a Mary-Sue. It was the wish fulfilment aspect of the Dresden stories and the characteristics that I was pointing to, rather than saying that Harry was a Mary-Sue. It is the strength of Butcher's writing and plotting that allow these characteristics to go both unnoticed and become part of why the character and series are so successful. Butcher needs escalation both in the challenges Harry faces as well as in the power Harry can use in order to make the series progress in the fashion it has. However if he had kept it to the noir detective feel of the first few novels Harry would never need to advance in terms of power and ability, Morse, Poirot, Miss Marple, Sherlock Holmes etc did not face ever more evil and devious opponents as one story followed another, and the Dresden Files could easily have remained in that vein. But because Butcher is building the series according to a grand sweeping arc he is building Harry up and giving him more and greater powers in order that there will be an almighty smack down at some point. Butcher is too talented a writer to fall into the Mary-Sue trap, but he isn't afraid to use some of those techniques. He knows what the techniques are, he knows how to manipulate and use them and he knows when the hell to stay away from them.

Despite the fact that I despise the Twilight books, the central character of those, Bella, whom most would agree is a Mary-Sue, is also a central hero and undergoes some character development. There is some justification for some of the powers and abilities she has (desperately weak though it is) and she does change slightly as the series develops. But the character of Bella is specifically a female wish fulfilment type character, whereas Harry is more about male wish-fulfilment. The maturity of Butcher's writing and plotting go along way in disguising this aspect and making it natural and palatable.

Perhaps a better example of a male Mary-sue-esque central hero would be Garion from Eddings' Belgariad and Malloreon. Undeniably Garion is both a hero and undergoes character development, but the adolescent wish-fulfilment aspect is so strong that he becomes a Mary-Sue-esque figure. He is the dream of growing up from humble beginnings to become OVERLORD OF THE UNIVERSE WITH UNIMAGINABLE POWER, and despite his lack of training or education is the most gosh-darn brilliant king and sorceror around because it was all part of one big prophecy and he is the CHOSEN ONE.

I was not criticising the quality of Butcher's writing, far from it as I am a fan of the series, but was making a point that there are elements of his writing that correspond to the other urban fantasies out there that are predominated by Mar-Sue vampire lovers. Butcher just does it so much better.

[Ribald]

Is there a discussion of the audio book versions anywhere in the forum? I am curious if anyone has listened to them and would recommend them.

[Use Of Weapons]

I think you have confused Mary-Sueness with the attributes of a classical literary hero. We are so used to the anti-hero in literature these days that any characteristics that smack of wish-fulfilment can lead automatically to accusations of author intrusion and Mary-Sue slander. Garion from the Belgariad is about as far from being a Mary-Sue as it's possible to get. He may well be the archetypal Hidden Monarch (to use Encyclopaedia of Fantasy nomenclature), but he really doesn't have any of the chracteristics of a Mary-Sue.

What precisely are these Mary-Sue characteristics you say you see in either Garion or Harry?

[Abyss]

Jits' is exactly right. There is a distinction, and a big one, between a hero advancing thru the stories gaining experience, power and allies, vs 'thinly veiled wish fulfillment'.

The concept of a 'Mary Sue' dates back to some long ago Trek ffic that involved who was insanely attractive (in a thoroughly not obvious sort of way), more genius than genius and got into threesomes with some variation of Spock/Kirk/Bones that allowed them to express their long surpressed bisexual desires while cranking out photon torpedo-like orgasms. And/or take Wesley Crusher's viginity via time travel. All elements of the 'story', using the term so loosely, hinged on the character's innate perfection. And of course the character is more or less based off the author (term used MORE loosely).

I don't see any elements of this in Dresden. I don't see how anything in those stories translates as self-insertion wish fulfillment. Hell, something usually goes horribly wrong every time Harry enters into a romatic relationship or gains a new power.

- Abyss, ...and also, 'ew'...

[Tarcanus]

Well, I'm halfway through Grave Peril and have decided that it's worth it to go through the entire series. I'm not yet entirely hooked, though. Where someone mentioned that there aren't many Deus Ex Machina moments, I've actually started to expect them because I know Harry won't be killed. If it looks like he's dead, there's going to be a DEM to save him. I'm hoping that aspect gets better, but if not, the books are still enjoyable enough to spend the money on them.

[Salt-Man Z]

Just finished Blood Rites (#6) and it was probably the strongest book yet. Wasn't planning on starting the next book right away, but now I just might have to swing by the library on the way home.

Personally, I thought 1-2 were really strong, and 3-4 were kind of a letdown from that. 5-6 were really really good, though.

[Use Of Weapons]

Tarcanus, on 14 April 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

Well, I'm halfway through Grave Peril and have decided that it's worth it to go through the entire series. I'm not yet entirely hooked, though. Where someone mentioned that there aren't many Deus Ex Machina moments, I've actually started to expect them because I know Harry won't be killed. If it looks like he's dead, there's going to be a DEM to save him. I'm hoping that aspect gets better, but if not, the books are still enjoyable enough to spend the money on them.

Can you give us an example of what you would consider a DEM?

[Tarcanus]

jitsukerr, on 15 April 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

Tarcanus, on 14 April 2010 - 06:43 PM, said:

Well, I'm halfway through Grave Peril and have decided that it's worth it to go through the entire series. I'm not yet entirely hooked, though. Where someone mentioned that there aren't many Deus Ex Machina moments, I've actually started to expect them because I know Harry won't be killed. If it looks like he's dead, there's going to be a DEM to save him. I'm hoping that aspect gets better, but if not, the books are still enjoyable enough to spend the money on them.

Can you give us an example of what you would consider a DEM?

One of the most common is how Harry is always able to stretch himself just far enough in his magical abilities to pull off something fantastic. Another (since Michael has been introduced) is when Michael is always right there, just when Harry is bout to get his head caved in or strangled by ghost or Nightmare.

[Use Of Weapons]

I think that of those, only Michael could be considered a DEM. The other would be character development, aka plotting.

[Tarcanus]

jitsukerr, on 15 April 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think that of those, only Michael could be considered a DEM. The other would be character development, aka plotting.

I could see that if Butcher made sure to mention at some point that stretching one's magical abilities was one of the methods of increasing your power. I don't think he does, and to me it always sounds like Dresden is hurting himself for no reason when he does that.

[Abyss]

Tarcanus, on 15 April 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:

jitsukerr, on 15 April 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

...Can you give us an example of what you would consider a DEM?

One of the most common is how Harry is always able to stretch himself just far enough...when Michael is always right there....

jitsukerr, on 15 April 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think that of those, only Michael could be considered a DEM. The other would be character development, aka plotting.

Isn't ANY accomplishment the rsult of strecthing oneself to do something you might not otherwise be able to. It's just a function of the story that Harry is put in situations where it's life or death. You don't know that you can lift a car until you're trying to save someone stuck under it.

As for Michael, well, he, and the rest of the Knights, are servants of 'GOD'. Of COURSE they are going to show up when needed. it's not deus ex machina when for the purposes of the story 'Deus' is the one calling the shots.