[Obdigore]

Isn't Deus Ex Machina generally something that hasn't been mentioned or something completely random that the reader would have no idea about? Harry being able to do the things he has done don't really seem DeM. As far as I can remember, the Knights never show up just at the end of the Novel, but are intertwined throughout it. It generally involves Harry figuring out what is actually happening, then finding some way of turning the persons' power back on them.

I have yet to see a 'Future Harry' fly by in a spaceship that is immune to his magical destructor-field while using his future-super-powers to destroy whatever baddie Harry is battling at that time.

MinorSPOILERS FOR CHANGES:

Spoiler

Vandarang or w/e (Odin) might have a computer immune to such hexus's.

[Tarcanus]

Abyss, on 15 April 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:

Tarcanus, on 15 April 2010 - 01:08 PM, said:

jitsukerr, on 15 April 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

...Can you give us an example of what you would consider a DEM?

One of the most common is how Harry is always able to stretch himself just far enough...when Michael is always right there....

jitsukerr, on 15 April 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think that of those, only Michael could be considered a DEM. The other would be character development, aka plotting.

Isn't ANY accomplishment the rsult of strecthing oneself to do something you might not otherwise be able to. It's just a function of the story that Harry is put in situations where it's life or death. You don't know that you can lift a car until you're trying to save someone stuck under it.

As for Michael, well, he, and the rest of the Knights, are servants of 'GOD'. Of COURSE they are going to show up when needed. it's not deus ex machina when for the purposes of the story 'Deus' is the one calling the shots.

Of course accomplishments can be done by stretching your own abilities - and that's definitely a nice thing to see in a protagonist. The problem I have with it is that this stretching of abilities only occurs when Harry is about to be killed. If he stretched himself while performing a summoning or drawing a complicated circle, I'd really like that. It would balance out the way he's constantly stretching his abilities now through near-death experiences.

As for your second point about god, I don't buy it. All you're saying is that anything done through the Knights is, by default, going to be DEM because god makes things happen when they're needed - exactly when they're needed. Hell, the most common definitions of DEM talk about how in ancient times DEM was a god that would descend from above a play being acted out in order to randomly resolve the conflict in said play. That really seems like what god (in the Dresdenverse) is doing when he(she/it?) steps in at just the right moment to pull the characters' asses out of the fire.


@Obdi

I looked up better definitions of what DEM really is in order to fill in the holes in my memory and you're right to an extent. Most of the definitions reference random things coming out of no-where to resolve plot points, but there is also a more lenient definition that talks about a 'sudden or unexpected solution to a difficulty'. It seems I think of DEM as the latter definition, but both are correct. I see Harry being saved in the nick of time (all of the time) to be DEM situations because I didn't expect him to always be saved (though, in retrospect, I should, because he's obviously still alive after many many novels, haha).


And as always, none of this detracts from my enjoyment of the books . I just read through the Vamp Party in Grave Peril and Harry just put all of the pieces together. The ending is nigh!

[champ]

just bought the first two, looking forward to a cheeky read tonight!

[Use Of Weapons]

Tarcanus, on 16 April 2010 - 04:04 PM, said:

I looked up better definitions of what DEM really is in order to fill in the holes in my memory and you're right to an extent. Most of the definitions reference random things coming out of no-where to resolve plot points, but there is also a more lenient definition that talks about a 'sudden or unexpected solution to a difficulty'. It seems I think of DEM as the latter definition, but both are correct. I see Harry being saved in the nick of time (all of the time) to be DEM situations because I didn't expect him to always be saved (though, in retrospect, I should, because he's obviously still alive after many many novels, haha).

The issue with that definition of DEM is that it could apply to virtually anything the central character does in order to get themselves out of a fix. For me, a DEM must have the following attributes: 1. It must be external to the main character; 2. It must not have been mentioned previously as having the capability it demonstrates in order to effect the solution; and 3. It must not arise as a consequence of previous actions within the plot/novel/series.

I really can't think of an intervention in the series where all these apply.

[champ]

bought the first two, read them in 2 days, bought the next 2, yey! crackin series

[Abyss]

yep, we've lured in another one...

- Abyss, drescrack pusha'

[Jusentantaka]

Is... is... *scratches* there a Dresodone clinic a... a... around here?

[Abyss]

[quote name='Tarcanus' date='16 April 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1271433845' post='751917']
[quote name='Abyss' date='15 April 2010 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1271346447' post='751500']
Isn't ANY accomplishment the rsult of strecthing oneself to do something you might not otherwise be able to. It's just a function of the story that Harry is put in situations where it's life or death. You don't know that you can lift a car until you're trying to save someone stuck under it.[quote]

Of course accomplishments can be done by stretching your own abilities - and that's definitely a nice thing to see in a protagonist. The problem I have with it is that this stretching of abilities only occurs when Harry is about to be killed. If he stretched himself while performing a summoning or drawing a complicated circle, I'd really like that. It would balance out the way he's constantly stretching his abilities now through near-death experiences. [/quote]

Actually, Harry points out more than once that in the course of training Molly he has also increased his own skill in veils, sheilds and ilusions, so there you go.

But otherwise, well, necessity is the mother of invention and not dying is a motherfucker of a motive to start inventing REAL fast.


[quote] As for Michael, well, he, and the rest of the Knights, are servants of 'GOD'. Of COURSE they are going to show up when needed. it's not deus ex machina when for the purposes of the story 'Deus' is the one calling the shots.
[/quote]

[quote] As for your second point about god, I don't buy it. All you're saying is that anything done through the Knights is, by default, going to be DEM because god makes things happen when they're needed - exactly when they're needed. Hell, the most common definitions of DEM talk about how in ancient times DEM was a god that would descend from above a play being acted out in order to randomly resolve the conflict in said play. That really seems like what god (in the Dresdenverse) is doing when he(she/it?) steps in at just the right moment to pull the characters' asses out of the fire. [/quote]
[/quote]

But isn't that the point? There are powers at work in the Dresdenverse and God happens to be one of those powers who will intercede to a certain extent. But notice that while Sanya was sent in as backup and Murphy and Susan were able to use the swords, none of them did what Harry ultimately did of his own accord.
In PROVEN GUILTY [spoiler] Michael shows up at just the right moment but that only happens because Harry delays the White Council passing judgment on Molly and is ready to fight frikkin Merlin to do it. [/spoiler]. Point being that sure God's involved and his agents are active but only as an assist, not as a determinative act.

[quote name='Jusentantaka' date='28 April 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1272490138' post='756135']
Is... is... *scratches* there a Dresodone clinic a... a... around here?
[/quote]

No but some Codex Alara might take the edge off until SIDE JOBS is released in November.

[champ]

Abyss, on 28 April 2010 - 07:14 PM, said:

yep, we've lured in another one...

- Abyss, drescrack pusha'

amen brotha!

Summer Knight pretty tasty!

[Salt-Man Z]

I actually thought Summer Knight was the low point of the series. Everything so far (up through book 9, anyway) just keeps getting better and better.

[champ]

by far best moment

Spoiler

where dresdan uses magic to grab the unraveling cloth from aurora and does the "Meep Meep" road runner, had my in stitches

[Use Of Weapons]

Summer Knight was the book that made me realise I was craving more Dresden. It's still my favourite of the early novels.

[Abyss]

Salt-Man Z, on 30 April 2010 - 04:16 PM, said:

I actually thought Summer Knight was the low point of the series. Everything so far (up through book 9, anyway) just keeps getting better and better.

Oh c'mon....

Spoiler

"I don't believe in faeries!"

has to be the bestest battlecry ever.

[champ]

best book so far has got to be Dead Beat, loved it and had me chuckling in a lot of places! just started reading the next one prove me guilty

slightish Dead Beat spoiler

Spoiler

Tyrannosaurus Sue, best character yet!!! =D

[Abyss]

champooon, on 19 May 2010 - 03:33 PM, said:

best book so far has got to be Dead Beat...

QFT

- Abyss, FYI.

[Tarcanus]

I don't know, I found Proven Guilty to be much better than Dead Beat. Sure, a

Spoiler

zombie dinosaur that rocks other zombies to the next form of death

is awesome, and I even grew up loving

Spoiler

dinoaurs

but Proven Guilty had so much more better stuff going on in it:

Spoiler

- Murphy and Dresden drama
- Learning about Charity
- The Molly Apprenticeship
- Movie monsters being badass
- An assault of Arctis Tor

So much better than Dead Beat.


Tarcanus, show button overload because who knows who reads these things?

[Salt-Man Z]

Tarcanus: You may notice that champoon had only read up to Dead Beat, so naturally he thought that the best book so far. Of course, once he finishes Proven Guilty, that will be the best book. It's kinda how the series works, it seems.

[Tarcanus]

Salt-Man Z, on 20 May 2010 - 03:11 PM, said:

Tarcanus: You may notice that champoon had only read up to Dead Beat, so naturally he thought that the best book so far. Of course, once he finishes Proven Guilty, that will be the best book. It's kinda how the series works, it seems.

True, but I also enjoy being contrary to Abyss.

[Animace]

Spoiler

Anyone else notice the 'Alien' cameo in proven guilty?

[Salt-Man Z]

Animace, on 21 May 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Spoiler

Anyone else notice the 'Alien' cameo in proven guilty?

Yeah, that was amusing. There's also a great line from Small Favor (spoiler-free) where Harry says, "That's the problem with you near immortal types. You couldn't spot a pop culture reference if it skittered up and implanted an embryo down your esophagus."