[Anomander]

HoosierDaddy, on Mar 23 2009, 04:18 PM, said:

Anomander, on Mar 23 2009, 03:10 PM, said:

Raymond Luxury Yacht, on Mar 23 2009, 03:44 PM, said:

I was here a couple of years ago, and would call people out for making generalized attacks on Americans back then too. It was bullshit then and remains so.

My issue is not with saying that some movie are geared towards Americans. Of course they are. My problem is with the idea that a movie must be geared towards Americans because it is stupid and unsubtle. How am I not supposed to take offense when someone calls me stupid and unsubtle?

Here's another thing. We live in a global market. A big part of the profits from a movie comes from overseas sales. So, if a movie is dumbed down, is it not probable that it is dumbed down to appeal to unsophisticated people everywhere?

Mk, I'm going to respond to a bit of this.

Wry had a point in saying that television/film is geared towards the "lowest common denominator". Unfortunately for you guys it tends to come across as absolutely stupid to foreigners. This is obviously not the case 100% of the time or anywhere near that however. But I mean really, the most popular shows are reality crap, the "popular" music is inane for the most part, and a trend for a blockbuster usually includes either cheesy comedy/romance/explosions. These things aren't subtle and some might term them stupid. So yes, because they pop up often in American culture when we see them in movies you wind up thinking "oh, it's geared towards Americans". Saying this though doesn't mean you guys are idiots. I was disolved of that notion once I started up on the internet and actually met some Americans and I daresay you'd find the same is true for most members on this site.

Your point on the "global market" has a flaw. If a Hollywood movie doesn't do as well nationally it doesn't matter as much to the film industry even if it turns a good profit globally. Point in case is the Golden Compass movie. The film did not do as well in the States as expected, so while it had a respectable income overseas it's unknown if a sequel will now happen despite that being the initial plan. And this is coming from New Line, so clearly they're more concerned with appealing to Americans and not the global public.

1. Most popular television shows are "reality crap." This is nonsense. American Idol (designed by a Brit) yes, is popular. But not outside the 8-16 shrieking pre-teen/teenage girl faction. Lost... not complex? Battlestar Galactica... not complex?

2. Popular music: What does "popular" mean? Pop? Rap? If you think Rap is the most popular music in America you are sorely mistaken.

3. Blockbusters: See, the thing with blockbusters is that they have to appeal to large masses of people by their very definition. A film that is directed towards one demographic cannot become a blockbuster. It has to, by nature, be fairly bland enough that most people take some enjoyment out of it.

@Wry: Not defensive. I merely disagree, and am willing to state why I think you are wrong. Are you being, "offensive" (in the attack sort of way, not insulting)? No, you are stating an opinion as well. So...

1. Hmm, guess I hit off base here. I'm going off the American stations I see here. There are plenty of gems, but by comparison the amount of crap (of which reality based programming takes a good chunk) I see is staggering.

2. You say "pop" and "rap" aren't the most popular music in America? Tune into MTV, check the Billboard charts, hell check out all those radio stations claiming "today's best music!" The trend is changing and rock/metal/alternative/etc is becoming more common, but it doesn't begin to approach how much money is made off of "pop" and "rap".

3. Nothing to add here.

[stone monkey]

Wow! This thread suddenly took a left turn into Angryville!

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Wry, on Mar 23 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

Well Hoosier you seem to be getting pretty defensive, which i can understand considering the spin you're putting on this. Why do i watch these movies? you maybe missed the part where i said i enjoyed most of the film. that's why i watched it. It's just frustrating when the meat is so consistently processed out of good ideas just to make it taste better.

People also seem to have missed where i acknowledge that there are plenty of people over here who like these films, and they're certainly not the people i'd want to hold up and say "these are the Irish". That said, studios don't test screen their movies here, they don't have Irish focus groups no matter how much money they want to make here. I also acknowledged the fact that our film industry doesn't really cater for the mainstream audience and that this is both a result of, and a reason for, it being small and amateur compared to Hollywood.

That said, can any of you honestly say that this is not part of your society and culture? This need to have black and white in morale issues, good guys and bad. Remember i'm talking about your society, not you guys personally (whom i know to be clever discerning folk - hence the hours a day i spend reading your posts)

I can certainately identify and despise the cultural flaws in my society.

[For the sake of clarity of emotional expression, I want to start off saying that the tone of this post is not intended to be angry and ranting. I'm just debating.]

Can you name a culture that doesn't have at some level a need to break things down into absolutes? The fact that these movies do well in other countries would indicate that there's something that rings true in them for a lot of different people. Look at traditional folk tales and stories from a lot of different places, and I bet you can find some instances of good vs evil. I'm sure you can think of some Irish story of an unsubtly good character defeating an equally unsubtly bad one.

Here's an example. Take the movie Braveheart. Good movie, but without a doubt unsubtle, historically inaccurate, and bluntly hits the viewer over the head with the idea that the British were really, really bad while the Scottish were noble and just, except when they came under the influence of the dastardly Brits. So, you could say this movie is geared for the unsubtly minded. However, it appealed to the unsubtly minded all over the world. That movie was huge in Scotland. They erected statues of William Wallace that were based on the wildly inaccurate version from the movie, rather than historical fact. Unsubtle material is meant for anyone who will appreciate it. If this movie's bluntness meant it was geared only for americans, then it wouldn't have been popular with you sophisticated Europeans. (By the way, I used this movie as an example because as an American, I'm pretty sure that Scotland and Ireland are the same place.)

So can I honestly say there are no unsubtle Americans? Of course I can't, because there are. That doesn't mean that having that stereotype broadly applied to me doesn't bug me. Imagine I posted on here that i had just watched Gangs of New York, and I thought it was clearly geared towards an Irish audience because that movie has a lot of getting drunk, fighting, not having a job, and hitting women. Would you be at all offended by that? Why? Can you honestly say that there are no people in Ireland who drink, fight, and are unemployed? Of course it would annoy you, because it's a ridiculous untrue statement senselessly painting an entire nation with the bad stereotypes associated with it. That's all I'm saying, don't apply a stereotype to me. Even if it is true in some cases, it doesn't apply to me, so it's going to piss me off when someone says it.

Why would you think that saying you only apply these stereotypes to my society as a whole and not me personally would make it any better? Let's use my example of Irish stereotypes from the last paragraph. What if I said that I'm sure that Wry isn't like that, but I think the Irish as a whole are drunken unemployed wifebeaters? Would that make it ok for you? (Just to be perfectly clear, I DO NOT actually agree with any of these Irish stereotypes, I'm just using them to illustrate my point of the offensiveness of stereotypes.) So, you think Americans as a whole are dumb and unsubtle, except for the ones you have talked to? Wouldn't the fact that the Americans you know don't fit the stereotype mean that maybe the stereotype itself is a misconception? The ironic thing is that generalizing about people based on stereotypes is about the most unsubtle way of thinking one can perform.

Longpost is long. We maybe should move this discussion to the DB. It's getting a little heavy for a thread that usually consists of posts like "Watched weekend at Bernie's. The dead guy was funny."

This post has been edited by Raymond Luxury Yacht: 23 March 2009 - 08:15 PM

[RodeoRanch]

Which "Weekend at Bernie's" is superior? The first or second?

[Aptorian]

They made a sequel!? SACRILEGE!

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

They may have made a third one too.

[Slow Ben]

They're remaking True Grit. True Grit! John Wayne's only oscar winning performance as Rooster Cogburn. I mean, they're remaking all these movies and their almost all bad. Now they want to remake a movie with one of the Duke's most notable characters. This is a bad idea.

[RodeoRanch]

What?! Who the hell can play the "Duke!?"

[Slum]

RodeoRanch, on Mar 23 2009, 08:40 PM, said:

What?! Who the hell can play the "Duke!?"

Orlando Bloom?

[Slow Ben]

No, no Slum, he's playing Mattie. The 14 year old girl.

[masan's saddle]

I have just gone back through this thread and whilst it got a bit heated now and again, I for one found it very interesting. Trying to be impartial I genuinally fell on the side of our American chums.
What we suffer from, particularly in the UK, is sometimes mistakenly described as American Cultural Imperialism. I prefer to call it over-exposure.
We are bombarded by a dominant Hollywood and a media industry that exports the full spectrum of American culture on a massive scale, whether it be music, TV, Cinema, Art, literature or for that matter, language. Some of it we love , some of it we hate but either consciously or subconsciously we resent it. Put simply we resent it for what it represents, a more dominant cultural "product" than our own
We are exposed to every facet of American culture, warts and all. Jerry Springer/ I Love NY to the Sopranos, Lil' Wayne to Tool, Superman Returns to Superbad etc etc. We take what we want and instead of discarding the crap for what it is, we use it selectively to stereotype the worst facets of American culture, apply them to the whole, and then nurture and justify our resentment.
Can you imagine the UK exporting Jeremy K**e,Booze Britain, Steps, The Cheeky Girls or Jade (RIP) Goody on a similar scale ? The long standing " British" stereotype of a fox hunting lord who lives in a castle would soon disappear

I for one don't have a problem with overtly " American " films, you know what your gonna get and sometimes it's what you want, but to coin a phrase " Don't believe the hype ", If it looks like shit, it probably is.
Keep your money in your pocket, change the channel, kill your television, make a molotov...,wait...

Ill probably get slated for this but hey, just opinion maaaaan!

[Wry]

Ha the Irish have had cultural imperialism for centuries, we're well used to it- and it's a good reason to get drunk and slap the missus!*

On topic: Saw Duplicity tonight. Man, Julia Roberts got old!






*Please note i would never raise a hand to my missus, she'd kick me through the wall if even looked at her crooked

[masan's saddle]

Wry, on Mar 24 2009, 01:33 AM, said:

Ha the Irish have had cultural imperialism for centuries, we're well used to it- and it's a good reason to get drunk and slap the missus!*

On topic: Saw Duplicity tonight. Man, Julia Roberts got old !




*Please note i would never raise a hand to my missus, she'd kick me through the wall if even looked at her crooked

Indeed, Us Taff's have been blossoming under the Imperial yoke for ages *ahem*, and as you say it's a good reason to get ripped and plant some Leeks !

Just watched The Thirteenth Warrior for like the 20th time, Love it.

[Wry]

not sure what a Taff is but i assume it's someone who is almost as good as an irishman at rugby

[masan's saddle]

You sir are not a gentleman, that was a low, hurtful and dastardly statement !

A blight on your potatoes and here's hoping your (absentee) landlord ups your rent and cuts your peat allowance !

[Cougar]

Hilarious thread is hilarious, RLY watch it champ you don't want to bring on a coronary, I've also noticed Hoosiers getting a bit cocky recently 1 year syndrome I suspect. Mezla has been here long enough to know not to dive down this blind alley of a discussion I'm surprised and dissapointed at the clever doctor lady.

Wry at least American Cultural Imperialism is a relatively accurate reflection of the culture, Irish cultural hegemony is a bizarrely insidious mix of myth and invention; why is there a faux Irish bar in every city in the world, why does the US love what they perceive as Irish culture so much, why does Irish mean sticking bikes, fiddles and antiquated farming equipment to the walls, when did wearing a giant guinness hat in public become OK just because your grandad once shagged a navvy?

I want to start a Lancashire theme bar; no lager, only warm bitter and mild (halves for the women) served in dimple mugs, only food is black pudding and hotpot, you aren't allowed in if you aren't wearing a flat cap or are a Yorkist and occupancy regulations state there must be a minimum of 2 whippets and a ferret at all times.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Oh, I'm better now. It's just a touchy subject from back when the american bashing was really bad.

I think it's time to watch Lebowski again. Every once in a while, it just feels like that time. I need to chill with the dude.

[HoosierDaddy]

Cougar, on Mar 24 2009, 04:10 AM, said:

Hilarious thread is hilarious, RLY watch it champ you don't want to bring on a coronary, I've also noticed Hoosiers getting a bit cocky recently 1 year syndrome I suspect. Mezla has been here long enough to know not to dive down this blind alley of a discussion I'm surprised and dissapointed at the clever doctor lady.

Wry at least American Cultural Imperialism is a relatively accurate reflection of the culture, Irish cultural hegemony is a bizarrely insidious mix of myth and invention; why is there a faux Irish bar in every city in the world, why does the US love what they perceive as Irish culture so much, why does Irish mean sticking bikes, fiddles and antiquated farming equipment to the walls, when did wearing a giant guinness hat in public become OK just because your grandad once shagged a navvy?

I want to start a Lancashire theme bar; no lager, only warm bitter and mild (halves for the women) served in dimple mugs, only food is black pudding and hotpot, you aren't allowed in if you aren't wearing a flat cap or are a Yorkist and occupancy regulations state there must be a minimum of 2 whippets and a ferret at all times.

<------ Getting cocky!


The last movie I rented was "Burn While Reading." I was so pissed of that "Religulous" wasn't in (I think it's a local conspiracy) that I grabbed a random movie. I didn't even watch it because I get busy and whatnot. That's like the 5th time I've done that with Redbox. The actual last two I've watched were Stepbrothers and The Dark Knight.

Yeah... I'm medieval like with my movie knowledge.

[Skywalker]

(post moved to the North America vs Europe thread cuz it belonged there)

on topic - um, haven't seen too many movies lately. Can't wait for Watchmen to finally release in India.

This post has been edited by Skywalker: 24 March 2009 - 09:36 AM

[dktorode]

Slow Ben, on Mar 24 2009, 02:39 AM, said:

They're remaking True Grit. True Grit! John Wayne's only oscar winning performance as Rooster Cogburn. I mean, they're remaking all these movies and their almost all bad. Now they want to remake a movie with one of the Duke's most notable characters. This is a bad idea.

When you say "they" are remaking TRUE GRIT, you mean The Coen Brothers.
If anybody can pull it off, they will.

Also they are going to make this one more faithful to the book. And not so much a remake of the movie.