[QuickTidal]

worry, on 24 May 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

I don't think FC trumps Se7en, but then again I think Se7en is second only to Silence of the Lambs in terms of thrillers of the 90s. FC is quite good though, and I wonder how you'll take it this much later, post-hype and well after the glut of meatheads who championed it for the exact wrong reasons.

Oh it trumps SE7EN....FIGHT CLUB is literally his best film for multiple reasons. I love SE7EN...But FIGHT CLUB is in my top 5 fave movies ever.

[WinterPhoenix]

worry, on 24 May 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

I don't think FC trumps Se7en, but then again I think Se7en is second only to Silence of the Lambs in terms of thrillers of the 90s. FC is quite good though, and I wonder how you'll take it this much later, post-hype and well after the glut of meatheads who championed it for the exact wrong reasons.

You know thinking about it now, having seen both movies multiple times, I think I might actually put Se7en above Silence of the Lambs. It feels weird to say that though, I mean Hopkins is beyond incredible as Lecter, I dunno though I think if I was just going to pick one to watch on a level playing field, or heck recommend to someone else I'd probably go with Se7en. I am a big Kevin Spacey fan though.

I gotta agree with you about Fight Club though, I wouldn't say it trumps Se7en either. I'm not completely sure what it is about FC that slightly annoys me, and I actually think it might be the fault of the hyperbolic hype it receives - especially from film student types - and not the movie itself, I mean it's clearly a good movie, I've just never enjoyed it as much as many people obviously do. All that being said, I have only seen it twice and even then not in a good few years, perhaps I should revisit it.

QT, I'm not sure I could even begin to say what my top 5 movies all-time would be, one of those interesting lists I'll be considering for awhile now.

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 25 May 2017 - 01:11 AM

[worry]

Once you think it up, make a Top 5 Movies thread.

[Slow Ben]

No, god, please dont.

I dont need that kind of stress in my life.

[WinterPhoenix]

Slow Ben, on 25 May 2017 - 01:24 AM, said:

No, god, please dont.

I dont need that kind of stress in my life.

Lol, this is what I told my brain when I read QT's comment above and thought to myself 'what are my top 5 movies?'. Innocuous question....

[worry]

Do not foil my plans.

[amphibian]

The problem with elevating Fight Club that high is that the story itself is a piece of shit. It's a brilliantly executed film and its way of making those who feel dissatisfied with life connect strongly (to what is actually nihilism and mental illness) is superb.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 25 May 2017 - 04:19 AM, said:

The problem with elevating Fight Club that high is that the story itself is a piece of shit. It's a brilliantly executed film and its way of making those who feel dissatisfied with life connect strongly (to what is actually nihilism and mental illness) is superb.

The story is not a "piece of shit".

[Macros]

Subjective differences

INTERNET FIGHT!!!!

[QuickTidal]

Also, if we are comparing SE7EN to FIGHT CLUB...both are completely nihilistic and deal with mental illness. The difference is that FC is about the main character DEFEATING his mental illness (realizing he wants to be with the girl, pushing his way through his suicidal tendencies [needing to put a gun in his mouth and survive it], and see through the insane plans of his alter ego to their fruition to actually rid himself of Tyler)....while SE7EN is about a man's mental illness taking him to an extreme that sees it's fruition in death and destruction of the protagonists in the film. In fact SE7EN ends on SUCH a downer note that I find it hard to re-watch it because it leaves me feeling horrible...while FIGHT CLUB....for all it's exploding bank buildings and shooting ones self through the cheek and cleverly placed Pixies track....actually ends on a high note if you see it as Narrator/Jack pushing through his mental illness to the other side (The comic book sequel that Palahniuk wrote kind of ruins that ending...but that's beside the point).

I don't see how the story being nihilistic or dealing with mental illness (in this case Dissociative identity disorder) makes it "shit" is all.

Also, I should note. FC was VERY much a film for Gen-Xers/Gen-Yers like me...we spent our teen/early adult years in the apathetic 90's, and FC literally spoke to that apathy of youth in that era. I was 22 in '99, and FC literally blew my mind. Not because I identified with the characters or anything, but because it (quite outside the box of the day) spoke up about things that my entire generation were dealing with in an extreme way that made it glaringly obvious to us and was a catharsis of sorts. I think Fincher (though older) felt that spoke to him as well, as his very NEXT film was PANIC ROOM...a film about protecting ones family from the very people that were main characters in FIGHT CLUB (including even FC Pretty Boy Jared Leto as one of the burglars FFS!). That factor was not lost on me when I saw PANIC ROOM.

FC capped off the decade in which a lot of people spent their angsty teen years, and kind of put a nail in the path coffin of the 90's apathy. The ending of FC has the Narrator expelling his demons (in his case, Tyler) at the end of a prolonged messed up period of his life that as filled with apathy and boredom with society sucking...the same thing anyone who became an adult in the late 90's did, just not in that literal way. FC is the self-therapy session of Jack/Narrator which he comes out the other side of.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 May 2017 - 12:25 PM

[polishgenius]

I always find it interesting to compare Fight Club and American Beauty. Both films, released at the same time, talking about pretty much the same themes and subjects, but completely opposite in terms of tone and cinematic style.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 25 May 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

I always find it interesting to compare Fight Club and American Beauty. Both films, released at the same time, talking about pretty much the same themes and subjects, but completely opposite in terms of tone and cinematic style.

For sure! In fact, the juxtaposition between them is nearly perfect as an analysis. AMERICAN BEAUTY is a great film, and also benefits from being a sort of catharsis of the apathetic Gen-X decade, just through the eyes of suburbia.

Solid point PG.

[WinterPhoenix]

See I really enjoy American Beauty, it's not a film I've seen loads and loads of times, only a few, but each time I've appreciated it more than the last - and again, massive Spacey fan, so I tend to perhaps overrate anything he's in, so long as it is even slightly decent - whereas FC, for all that it does well, and it undeniably does do very well in terms of the way it is put together - this is obviously part of the reasons it lends itself to study so easily, along with it's dissection of the movies inherent themes - each time I have watched it has left me with an immense dissatisfaction. Until recently I blamed this on pretension, I accused the movie of trying to hard to be that film students movie, but I no longer believe that to be the case, I now genuinely think my friend Bob (who did film studies and such) ruined the movie for me with his frankly ridiculous hyperbolic hype of the movie. It's a good film, it's not the second coming of film-Jesus :/

I will say though that this idea of a generational 90's catharsis while very interesting is an idea that would have escaped me for the most part, I first watched both movies in like 07-08 sort of time and I was only 7 in 1999, think I was still watching The Lion King on repeat

[QuickTidal]

WinterPhoenix, on 25 May 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

I will say though that this idea of a generational 90's catharsis while very interesting is an idea that would have escaped me for the most part, I first watched both movies in like 07-08 sort of time and I was only 7 in 1999, think I was still watching The Lion King on repeat

Indeed. I think the age at which one is and the era in which this came out play BIG into how you might receive it (and yeah it likely didn't help that your friend was crowing about it so loudly). And I think that's probably it's biggest flaw. It's a film that is SO very late-90's, and watching it without that context disallows a lot of its intent. It's still a good movie to people mind you...just that I think there is a Generation (which I am included in) who saw it as something more.

It's funny because since I grew up in the suburbs, you'd figure I'd have received AMERICAN BEAUTY at the same level of epicness...and while I liked it...I don't feel it's quite as good. I think that's interesting. Perhaps because my teen years in the suburbs after my parents split (and the fact that in 99 I was 22 and in my first grown up job) were not as "seemingly" idyllic looking as the ones in American Beauty (which is very much the plastic fantastic 1950's white picket fence ideals, never mind what was underneath)...so I related more to the Fight Club apathy than the AB apathy.

It's all very interesting.

It's funny, because when I was in film analysis class in College ('96)...FC wasn't out yet, so we had to suffer through my teacher telling us how great Woody Allen films are...and I hate those. LOL!

[amphibian]

The thing about Fight Club is that very very few people connect to the end. It's the discontent and the start a revolutionary terror club that does minor acts of sabotage to get back at "normals" that people mostly connect to.

The film/story works with more than just dissociative identity disorder - there's substance abuse, OCD, depression, grieving, abuse survivors, narcissists, hypochondriacs, and more within it. All of these problems are seen by the main character as carried by people who are to be used by the main character for so long that it becomes dismissive, rather than a facet of the general human condition. The essential attitude of Fight Club, beyond the ending of the film which few actually realize is a repudiation - is that of nihilism in regards to getting or giving help or empathy.

It's a near perfect libertarian story. My older brother has stated multiple times that it's his favorite movie ever and he hates the ending. Says it ruins the message he likes in the story before it. Oof.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 25 May 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

The thing about Fight Club is that very very few people connect to the end. It's the discontent and the start a revolutionary terror club that does minor acts of sabotage to get back at "normals" that people mostly connect to.

First of all, that's not something I've ever seen people connect to in those I've spoken with about the film.

Secondly, if that is the case, is that the fault of the film? I don't think so. That's like blaming the Matrix and video games for Columbine. It's stupid and puts the blame on the artist for interpretation by SOME audience members. Fight Club is a cautionary tale, and if people see that and IGNORE that the ending is all about moving on and silencing your demons...then they don't get it. Like at all. And that's on them, not Palahniuk, or Fincher, or Uhls. It's the reason the movie STARTS with the ending scene. It's showing you that Jack/Narrator is not about Project Mayhem or Fight Club...but that those things occurred anyways in the course of his catharsis of discovering and silencing Tyler. Hell, he spends half the damned film trying to STOP Tyler and only achieves it by shooting himself. If you know people who connect with the part of the film that's meant as cautionary...then I dunno what to tell you...that's kinda scary.

amphibian, on 25 May 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

The essential attitude of Fight Club, beyond the ending of the film which few actually realize is a repudiation - is that of nihilism in regards to getting or giving help or empathy.

Not at all. And when you mention the "ending" you need to remember to mention the beginning as well. The film is literally book-ended around the concept of "this is not good, it got us here, but we can move on now". If it were about what you think it was about, then half the film would not be about Jack and Tyler at odds, and Jack finally coming around to realizing he loves Marla. Sure, there is a portion of the film where Jack abuses the "system" to "feel" something...but that's a short portion...it's replaced by both Fight Club and Project Mayhem...all of which he eventually silences. The point is that he had to make the journey through all that to come out the other side. It's not ENDORSING that fact...it's presented in a way that shows it to be self-serving on purpose...even Jack is sickened by doing it.

amphibian, on 25 May 2017 - 05:23 PM, said:

It's a near perfect libertarian story. My older brother has stated multiple times that it's his favorite movie ever and he hates the ending. Says it ruins the message he likes in the story before it. Oof.

I see. That's...not how one should view the film.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 25 May 2017 - 05:54 PM

[polishgenius]

See, I don't have any serious personal reaction to Fight Club but I still think it's a great film. Just cinematically. It's fantastically made.


But, anyway, even if people are reading the wrong message into it that doesn't lessen the film (heck, even if it had deliberately given that message it wouldn't lessen its status as a piece of art, though it would mean more caution need be taken about how it's praised, for me). But it's like with Scarface- lots of people read Tony Montana as a heroic failure and someone to aspire to rather than an awful cautionary tale, but that doesn't make Scarface any less of a film (not that Scarface is as good as FC, but you get the point).


What also shouldn't be missed- and this is also true of American Beauty- is that while the nihilism and basic self-destructiveness is presented in the end as bad, in both films there's also a running theme of 'don't define your life by your possessions' and more broadly 'don't let capitalism rule your soul' that isn't and shouldn't be. It's as much a warning tale that certain aspects of modern life can drive people to such jadedness as a warning against the jadedness itself.

[Aptorian]

Strange. I feel like none of your interpretations of Fight Club, negative or positive, covers my view of the films themes. Not what ever chuck palahniuk meant to tell, but rather what Tyler Durdens goal was.

What resonated with me in that film (when I watched it in my early 20s), was the notion of shrugging off the layers of false civility that chain us down. Deconstructing how civilization forces us to adapt to the rules of society. In my view of the story, Project Mayhem isn't about terror, it's about change in the form of chaos. Benevolent anarchy. Tearing down the notions of normality. Getting in touch with your inner desires and needs. Abandoning the materialistic and futile struggle to get rich or climb some corporate later to success or having a family with 2,3 kids, a nice house and 2 cars.

In the case of the "real person" Durden envisions, it's about doing what makes you happy. Which in Project Mayhems idea of utopia, would be returning to some kind of subsistence living. Fighting to survive and cherishing every moment of it.

I don't think that goal is nihilistic at all. It's revolutionary certainly, and libetarian in it's outlook upon government, but in the end I'd argue it's an ideology based on optimism. Durden believes that everyone has it in them to change, to become the master of their own destiny.

I thought project Mayhem was inspiring but then again, I also like the concept of 4chan.

This post has been edited by Seduce Goose: 25 May 2017 - 06:48 PM

[Morgoth]

Briar King, on 25 May 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

All yalls opinions are wrong!




Jk

Buying Logan and hopefully IT mini.

You're right thought. They're all daft.

[QuickTidal]

Briar King, on 26 May 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

Holy motherfuck a duck Logan was outstanding. I mean that was perfect.

Yeah man, arguably the best X-Men movie...and it's only got two X-Men in it!