[Aptorian]

I believe it is Kumonori who was the "better" of the two.

Cowl I think we can by now, safely assume, isn't one of the good guys. The things he unleashed in the cave in Winter Night doesn't indicate someone who cares about the consequences of his actions.

[Abyss]

Running speculation is that Cowl is Dumorne - i tend to think that's a little too obvious, but the theory has legs.

- Abyss, ...got legs, and knows how to use em...

[Coco with marshmallows]

i'd say that's way too obvious.

also totally wrong the way Cowl treats Harry in Dead Beat is as though he's heard of him by reputation only.
If he was DuMorne, he'd have killed him outright immediately, or at least been more aware of his capabilities.

I still think the former senior council member from Archangel is a better bet there.

[drza44]

Abyss, on Apr 20 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

Running speculation is that Cowl is Dumorne - i tend to think that's a little too obvious, but the theory has legs.

- Abyss, ...got legs, and knows how to use em...

If Cowl is anyone we know, I'd bet on Dumorne. I think it's only "obvious" in the sense that there aren't any other really good candidates, but on the other hand it's not like it's been foreshadowed that we should think we'd already know who Cowl is so I don't see why it'd be considered obvious to the casual reader.

ETA: I should have read Coco's post before making mine. That part about Cowl knowing him by reputation is a good point. On the other hand, and I don't remember the exacts of their exchanges, it'd seem that if Cowl IS Dumorne he'd definitely want to act like he was a stranger to Harry. I mean, if Cowl kept running around spouting inside info on Harry's tendencies then it really would be obvious who he was. And actually, now that I think about it, Cowl and his crew treat Harry as though he is basically just a magical thug with not nuance. I think that would fit with what Dumorne would have expected of Harry, since that's basically what he was as a youth. It's only been in recent years since he's been working with Molly that he's started refining his game...

This post has been edited by drza44: 22 April 2009 - 06:40 AM

[drza44]

Cocoreturns, on Apr 20 2009, 01:04 PM, said:

as for Harry's headache in Turncoat - could be Lash coming back maybe?

Again, this would get my vote for "most likely". IIRC, the way that Lash "died" was basically by frying the brain cells of Harry's where she lived. But since Wizards apparently regenerate, a method has been established for how Harry's gray matter could heal over time. It just seems to me that Lash still had possibilities as a character, and I wouldn't think the author would kill off such a character until the possibilities are run through. I mean, if nothing else, the possibilities of Harry with both soulfire AND demonfire (with all of the associated moral and practical questions about using each) would have lots of great potential. And after all of the work that Harry had done to start turning Lash, I can't imagine him ever starting over again with a new copy after touching the coin again...just seems like it'd be more practical to re-establish the old one.

[Zanth13]

I dont remember something...

Does Cowl have to be someone we know? Or would that be his name.

Yeah the headaches had me thinking of Lash as well, which brings up the question, if and when she returns how subtle will it be, how will she be affecting his actions, and what will be her purpose no...i am thinking ally because the shadow has changed enough so that it could not survive with the denariantsreal coin

apollgies for this probably sloppy post but my vision and thoughts are not clear because of two percecets and its 1 am here, but my jaw just stopped hurting to point for me...

then again the headaches may be more a normal problem, ie some of the drawbacks of the high stress and high trauma job he has... in real life when a person gets beat up (especially in modern combat) so it could actually be TBI,or traumatic Brain Injury... basically all the concussions and fights he had before are catching up to his somewhat mortal form,

ok i have fallen asleep writing this post twice now, im just going ot hit add reply and hope it maie

[Chance]

Zanth13, on Apr 22 2009, 07:03 AM, said:

Does Cowl have to be someone we know? Or would that be his name.

Yeah the headaches had me thinking of Lash as well, which brings up the question, if and when she returns how subtle will it be, how will she be affecting his actions, and what will be her purpose no...i am thinking ally because the shadow has changed enough so that it could not survive with the denariantsreal coin

Think people assume Cowl is someone we know since a point is made now and then to Dresden not seeing his face. I for one have a hard time beliving he would be someone we know simply because the people we know that could have such power are pretty much senior counsel and Dumorn well if Dresden killed him as an adolescent well I just can't see him being ubermighty by Deadbeat unless for some very strange reason he planned his own murder. Cowl also seems to be pretty unaware of Dresdens capabilities.

I'm holding my tumbs for Lash as well...it was just getting interest as she was offed. Still it would take some out of what she did.

/Chance

This post has been edited by Chance: 22 April 2009 - 01:29 PM

[Coco with marshmallows]

another thing - this may have come up in the short stories - what happened to the rest of the Alphas?

on the read through, there were a dozen mentioned in summer knight,
but by Turncoat there are only four.

what happened to everyone else?

Also, some questions that have oocured to me during the re-read that are probably going to
be answered at some point in the future -

- who runs Harry of the road at the start of Proven Guilty?
- who put the bomb on Murphys car in white knight?
- Are we ever going to see that dragon from Bianca's party again? Cowl mentions that ramifications of that night will take years to
come out, so i'm guessing yes. (by the way, anyone else think that the possesion of Leanandsidhe occured from that dagger she got? - which Mab now has. who now only
speaks through her pet cat. and stood by and watched when Harry and co assaulted Arctis Tor)

Lesser point, but:
- Would Murphy just hurry up and accept the damn sword already? - seriously, it was introduced as a concept BEFORE the friggin swords were,
when Harry looked at her with his sight while battling werewolves - he saw her as an angelic sword wielding heroine.
Next book, we get introduced to the swords. It couldn't be any more obvious if the sword had "FAO Karrin Murphy" stencilled into the blade.

Also, I still think Gard is the one who took that other Denarian coin at the end of small favour. And Monoc is a little too obvious a pun.
And when will Thor show up to smite someone dammit.

[kmgrey]

Cocoreturns, on Apr 22 2009, 08:38 PM, said:

Also, some questions that have oocured to me during the re-read that are probably going to
be answered at some point in the future -

- who runs Harry of the road at the start of Proven Guilty?
- who put the bomb on Murphys car in white knight?

The other big one is who modified the Little Chicago model?

These threads have been dormant for at least two books now so I have a feeling Butcher will toss us another bone next time out even if it isn't a full explanation.

[Abyss]

Cocoreturns, on Apr 22 2009, 04:38 PM, said:

another thing - this may have come up in the short stories - what happened to the rest of the Alphas?

on the read through, there were a dozen mentioned in summer knight,
but by Turncoat there are only four.

what happened to everyone else?

...

It's mentioned in a short story in MY BIG FAT SUPERNATURAL WEDDING OF A DECENT DRESDEN STORY TO OTHERWISE USELESS CRAP FROM LESSER AUTHORS that various alphas were graduating uni and moving off to do other things. It's never explicitly stated that Will, Georgia, Kirby and Andi are the only four left in Chicago tho'. They are just the four who are around when Harry shows up during TURNCOAT.

Btw, i've now read three Butcher Dresden anthology stories, in the BLOODY RETURNS, WEDDING and HONEYMOON collections, and am confident in saying, wait for a Dresden collection or library them. The Dresden stories are ok enuf but hardly on the level of the books, and the other authors' works are for the most part, so very weak.


- Abyss, lurvs his library.

[vaiski]

Cocoreturns, on Apr 22 2009, 11:38 PM, said:

- Are we ever going to see that dragon from Bianca's party again? Cowl mentions that ramifications of that night will take years to
come out, so i'm guessing yes. (by the way, anyone else think that the possesion of Leanandsidhe occured from that dagger she got? - which Mab now has. who now only
speaks through her pet cat. and stood by and watched when Harry and co assaulted Arctis Tor)

I'm guessing he'll show up at least in the closing apocalyptic thing, because Butcher has said on his board that he is one of the real super-duper badasses in Dresden world.
Butcher also has confirmed that Mab was injured in the assault on Arctis Tor, and this is why she needed a mouthpiece.
Here are the relevant posts, with Butcher's answers in quotes:

Quote from: Persephone on February 23, 2009, 10:55:46 PM

But the thought that really hit home, especially considering the intensity of her wrath in the final scene at the church...
Mab's not going crazy... Mab's been wounded.

Quote

Woot. I love it when you guys work things out!

Oh, and Mab's not using a mouthpiece because she's incapable of speech. She could talk all she wanted--as long as she didn't mind killing the people she was trying to communicate with. Suffice to say that the whole "words can never hurt me" thing just doesn't apply to angry Faerie Queens.

Jim

Quote from: Warden John Marcone on March 04, 2009, 02:48:02 PM
I'm still curious about who could hurt Mab. Other than Titania, nobody comes to mind.

Quote

Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:

o Titania--though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court--again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o The entire White Court--very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.

All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.

There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened.

Quote from: The Watchman on March 05, 2009, 01:23:09 AM
4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought

Quote

Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world. And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city). Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon. Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts. *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.

5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...

Quote

If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. Smiley

For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.

6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?

Quote

Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast. It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos. He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment. He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession. There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.

Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.

You can find all Butcher's posts here, but beware of some Codex Alera spoilers.

This post has been edited by vaiski: 23 April 2009 - 07:42 PM

[polishgenius]

That list of powerful beings there really does highlight just how high the power-ceiling goes in Dresden. I wonder if, at some point, Harry will climb to the top - or, alternatively, if he'll have to play some against others to get things done, because the biggest powers stay out of the game for obvious plot-based reasons


On the book:

While the persona of the Shaggy made him reasonably effective - a good villain, basically a bastard, although even that was weakened by me recently reading a book with a much better character of similar persona- the fear with which Harry approached was somewhat diminished to the reader once it started having 1-on-1 fights. It was a bit Dejim Nebrahl. Though maybe Demonreach did weaken it, considering the way it battered much more than just Harry before. Injun Joe having the knowledge did make sense though considering the heavy ritualisation of such things. The shapeshifter battle didn't reach the heights of other books, perhaps diminished by having read similar in Pratchett's Equal Rites so it didn't have that wow-factor.

Harry's cold reactions to Thomas and, less so, Luccio, troubled me initially that Butcher's starting to change character for plot convenience, but someone pointed out earlier he says so right there after seeing the Skinwalker that he's going to become more of a bastard from then on. As that scene didn't have too much impact on the rest of the book, I think it's safe to say that the emphasis placed on it means it will have long-term effects (much like I'm still convinced that Harry's sex scene with Susan when she's all tied up is so out of place in the series that it's got to result in a baby).

The identity of the traitor was a bit meh (has he been in it before- where did Murph know him from? Did I miss something in this book?) but the whole thing did very well, as several people have said, in drawing out supporting characters. Lara's very interesting now - similar to Marcone in some ways but whereas him and Harry are always very formal, Harry and Lara seem to connect much more, and not just on the sexual attraction thing. As someone said, they click, even though they hate each other.
Molly's development seemed sound enough to me- she was never going to remain out of trouble but she remained likeable, at least for me.
Morgan turned out to be a class act. And nuking a skinwalker? Badass.

The new guys were decent additions- I'm not too sure about the merc but the Kincaid-like theory seems alright, while Vince is quality.



Like Abyss says, Butcher continues his good habit of slow, sloooooow folding out of long-term plot - it does make for some similarities in individual books but the long-term looks bright. Yet more interesting developments here with the Island (Ebenezar writing of taking on a 'mantle' suggests it's more than simply a buried demon, since I'm not sure why knowing of its existence would neccesiate taking on responsibility, and I think the Island itself has some connection, not just being where it is - the fact that it's a source of a Leyline is going to be important somehow).


Also, yeah, how could I forget: Toot-Toot is one baaaaaaaaaaaaad motherfucker.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 25 April 2009 - 08:15 AM

[Abyss]

I just re-read the bit where Toot saves Harry and it may rival the finales of Death Masks and the whole T-rex thing in Dead Beat as the most cinematically awesome moment in the books.

Ok, i'm exaggerating, but only SLIGHTLY.


- Abyss, ...cracks up every time the 'Pizza Lord' thing comes up...

[Pig Iron]

I have so much Butcher-abstinence now that I have to give the Codex Alera a new chance.

Edited: reading Alera, like it.

This post has been edited by Pig Iron: 04 May 2009 - 05:06 PM

[Aptorian]

Has Butcher made a mistake? He states above that Mab cannot speak in presence of mortals lest they turn inside out or something like that, but wasn't this exactly what she did when we first met her in Summer Knight? She's taken on the guise of a woman, Harry stabs her, etc. Is it just a question of her being able to subdue herself? The wounding making her unable to make bonds on herself?

[Coco with marshmallows]

I think so

i'm taking it to mean that she's been injured badly enough to **** up her fine control as it were.

like having broken fingers. It's fine for the brute force stuff - you can pick things up, hold cups, etc.

but you can't use chopsticks.

[Abyss]

the point is that between her first and later appearancve, something happens such that she requires a 'mouthpiece' fae or she'll kill with her voice.

- Abyss, has days like that.

[Zanth13]

Some what are the options that cause that

1. A massive power up

2. Loss of control over power

3. (tie into 2) some type of damage or attack curse deal ect that prevents her from doing it.

I would date Mab

[Aptorian]

Zanth13, on Apr 28 2009, 07:24 PM, said:

I would date Mab

I would run like a dog if I came near her and probably do some combination of pissing my pants/shitting myself, curl into a little ball, beg for my mercifull life and see if I have any metal coins I could throw at her before I tried the "run like a dog" trick again... if she got close.

Mab is scary.

[Zanth13]

Aptorian, on Apr 28 2009, 08:53 PM, said:

Zanth13, on Apr 28 2009, 07:24 PM, said:

I would date Mab

I would run like a dog if I came near her and probably do some combination of pissing my pants/shitting myself, curl into a little ball, beg for my mercifull life and see if I have any metal coins I could throw at her before I tried the "run like a dog" trick again... if she got close.

Mab is scary.

yeah but think of the perks, as long as you dont screw it up your golden... it would be better then being married to Oprah, or Bill Gates.