[Traveller]

Aieeeee black boxes! I'm reading Death Masks, and just want to say that i really wish JB wouldn't describe/explain Dresdens job, flat appearance and car at the beginning of every book after the first.

I like seeing the way things have changed from the end of the previous book, like the way his car is accumulating scars from different encounters, but it seems a bit formulaic and unnecessary.

That's only a small criticism though! Otherwise me like muchly.

[Zanth13]

Spoiler

Fuck binder, I would have put two in his face... responsible for at least one death and probably a hand in my brothers abduction... dead crackers...

Im not exactly sure why Morgan died... blood loss? though on first inspection I thought his wounds didnt seem that serious... it was actually a good end for the character, he probably coundt have been built up to much more, I always liked him...

Kirby's death had a lot of emotional punch to it at least at the beginning or first half of the book.

I found it a little wierd the Listen to the wind could beat shagnasty almost easily while a squad of guards, 3 vampires and seasoned wizards couldnt even hurt him... though I guess that goes to show the difference between your average counsil member and a member of the senior council... ie a really big difference... that and maybe soulfire and being away from its home and the island had weekend shagnasty some. For some reason as soon as the explained what the shapeshifter was I figured there would be a fight between Listen to the wind and it... just knew it..

though with that being said, i felt that they should have been able to handle spiders pretty easily, the werent that hard to kill... but we dont know what kind of restrictions the island might have played in that...

I really wanted to see shagnasty get killed, maybe dresden will live up to promise for what it did to Thomas... though I think that would be impossible to do in its home territory...

Morgan gets extra hard ass points for how he dealed whith his shapeshifter problem... nothing says fuck you like an atomic bomb....

well this is entirely to much for anyone to want to read, I try not to post this much ever for that reason... but I bought and read the book all in one day, which is something i never do so I had a lot to think about at once... and its 2am here... so im not going to spell check...

[Dr Trouble]

Spoiler

I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!! I HATE YOU ALL THAT HAVE THE BOOK!!!

[Chance]

Touched upon it amongst all the spoilers...but whats bad guy would people wanne see in the next dresden book quite a few interesting around...cowl, nicodemus, black vampire chick with her new reading materials...

So which bad guy caught your interest ?

/Chance...

[polishgenius]

Is it out in the UK yet? Because my local waterstones didn't have it today. Got a bunch of other books that are entertaining me instead, but still.

[drza44]

Spoiler

Started to respond to some of the other posts, but don't have the time to do it right point-by-point so I'll just scatter some of my thoughts:

1) Molly. As opposed to much of what I've seen in this thread thus far, I love her character. She's quickly becoming one of my favorites. I like how she's developing, and I think her tendency to still break the rules is one of the more realistic aspects. As someone pointed out, she sees Harry break the rules all of the time. And also, in this book we saw Butcher delineate a clear difference between "the magic rules" and "good and evil" with the whole discussion of Harry's mom. Molly broke rules that limit wizardry power, but not rules of right/wrong. I think that's a huge distinction.

2) Lara. She is another that is becoming one of my favorites to read about. Somewhat like Lash, she seems to be a character that shouldn't be able to be "good" but that I wouldn't be surprised to see interracting/affecting/being affected by Harry a lot moving forward. I liked the bit about them being able to do more together than they could apart, which I think hits it on the head. To be frank, though they can't trust each other, they make a great team. More-so than Harry and any of the other "bad" characters, IMO, and even better than Harry and most of his "good" allies.

3) Harry's "goodness". Honestly, for me, Harry has been a bit "too" good for me throughout this series. Some of his stances where he has dug his feet in, and the "only pure love no lust" theme over years at a time was not vibing with me so much. Seemed much more teenaged audience/young prince than 30-something grown up to me. So for him to be having a much more casual relationship with Luccio while also being more practical in his dealings with the White Court...those things, to me, give Harry a bit more depth. Most of the senior Wizards call Harry "kid" or some other nickname to emphasize his youth, and in this aspect I think that Harry being a bit more gray would be a sign of his growing up a bit, if you will.

4) The set-ups in this book that will obviously come to fruition at some point:

a) the headaches. They have to be significant, and could be any of a bunch of things that all have cool possibilities. In a lot of books, headaches are associated with gains in magical power, which would be cool for Harry and also somewhat consistent with Harry gaining some "sight" in the previous book as a sign of his wizard maturity. Or, it could be a sign that whatever part of his brain where Lash resided that got burned out was slowly healing (similar to his hand), and that when it regenerates Lash could return. Or something completely other.

the island. Like the coin (briefly), and like Soulfire (currently), the island seems like another way to help Harry power up. Along with the general maturity/experience Harry is getting over time, I think he needs his power ups because unless this series spans a century he's not going to have enough time to get to Senior Council level without them.

5) Thomas. I can't see how Harry could possibly have blamed Thomas for killing the women while Shagnasty had him, and from my reading Thomas hadn't been killing since then. And honestly, I don't see how Harry could have possibly blamed Thomas at all for his current situation. He'd just been mind-screwed pretty thoroughly by an entitity that forced him to return to what amounts to an ultra-addiction that also happens to improve certain other aspects of his being. It'd be like if someone kidnapped a life-long heroin addict that had been clean for several years, then shot him up continuously with some new heroin that had the side effect of also making his body faster and healthier. You don't just kick that again in two weeks.

Plus, I kind of like the idea of seeing Thomas in his full mantle as a vamp for a little while. We've seen how much Lara outstripes the rest of her peers, and we've also seen how Harry outstripes the rest of his wizard peers. Would be nice to see just what Thomas is capable of when he's at max capacity.

6) Murph and the sword. It was obvious before, but this book hammered it in further: she has to take it. She has been surprisingly effective against the supernatural baddies in the series so far, but as we saw there are still times when she has to sit out because she just isn't in the weight class. But she is too central a character, too important to Harry, and too good at what she does to not be more involved going further. The sword is her ticket to the big leagues.

7) Luccio. We all knew that something had to go wrong. Given that, I like how Butcher played it. She obviously hadn't been built up enough (yet) to be "The One" for Harry, but either killing her or making her the bad guy would have been too obvious. This way, her and Harry now have a history that can be used to create lots of tension for them moving forward. Like Susan, Luccio now has more upside after the relationship than she ever had before or during it.

OK, that's enough for now.

This post has been edited by drza44: 09 April 2009 - 10:38 PM

[Zanth13]

yeah what is up with the headaches...

sigh,


more unasnwered questions

[High Marshal Flit]

Firstly, Butcher keeps killing it, another solid installment, questions answered, more asked, new characters, more of the premier action scenes we've come to expect, yet can still blow me away. The rest is spoilers:

Spoiler

1) My thoughts on Molly are wholly positive. Firstly she's a teenager and of course she's gonna be tested to use her magical skills, but she showed she only tried the 'bad' stuff when it was really important and possibly dangerous to Harry. Turns out she was right. But the scene where she ices her nips to get info from Vince was dope and shows she does know something of limits. And I think that Molly will be Dresden's at the least and the Gray Council's at the most, shaved knuckle when it comes figuring out whose mind is messed with. She figured out Luccio's and Harry's a book or two ago.

Spoiler

Thomas-I think that Butcher had to give Dresden some space from his brother. There's only one POV and with Harry getting more involved in council politics and going international, Thomas couldn't tag along, him being a vamp and everything, but also would anyone want to see Thomas languishing as a hairdresser? I for one can't wait to see him let loose.

Spoiler

The island- it did seem sort of strange that with 3 senior council members that they didn't just destroy anything and everything in their way, but w/ Peabody and his cohort(probably equivalent to a senior council), plus a couple hundred gray guys from nevernever and the spiders, that's some heavy shit and the only reason listen;s to wind could go head up with shagnasty was that his background specializes him to that battle, while he probably would get his ass kicked by some chinese beastie that Mai Tai could roll. and I might be stretching it here but I don't think the island could effect vamps, angels, wizards and whatnot very much and it could shagnasty, was that shaggy was something of the earth, connected, its own ley line, similar to the island.

Spoiler

And lastly, after the first time Harry went to HQ and passed Mai's stone dogs, all I could think of was Mouse totally wagging his tail and trying to play wit one, or pissing on one or something. Then he frigging brings Mouse with him and I was totally waiting for something but nothing. Damn!!

[Imperial Historian]

I hear it's due out for release on the 14th in the UK... here's hoping they have it before then though.

and seriously guys... all these spoiler boxes are killing me.

[kmgrey]

I'm flabbergasted by the (relative) disappointment from many here. I'd rate the book probably second in the series behind Dead Beat.

Spoiler

I think the character stuff is getting better in each volume. There was a lot of really poignant stuff with Morgan, Molly, Murph, Will and Georgia, Thomas, and even Toot-Toot.

I don't expect any single book in the series to push the overall plot forward much- we won't see anything like that until it ceases becoming Dresden Files and become the Apocalyptic Trilogy (or whatever Butcher ultimately calls it). But I did think the book had a fair amount of forward movement in the plot with only perhaps Small Favor having more. So no complaints there. Plus, in a series that has been pretty reluctant to kill off characters, here Butcher killed off a minor (Kirby) and a major (Morgan).

Going back to the first point, I thought this pushed the character stuff much further along than any previous book. While I don't think we'll see Thomas go all bad, I dot think we'll bee seeing a much darker side for several books. The Grey Council also seemed a pretty big point and, more importantly, combined with the discussions about Molly's use of power as well as the reveal about Harry's moms' run-ins with the council, I expect we'll be seeing a more detailed look into the relative morality of all major players.

While I am slightly disappointed that the traitor to the council was basically a non-entity since so I think we were expecting someone more prominent in the series, that was offset by Butcher's quite clever idea that Peabody was using the inks to manipulate people. Plus, I suspect that there is still probably someone on the Senior Council who is a traitor but Butcher will wait until much later in the series to play that card. I'm also happy that I feel like I can mentally take Ebenezer off of the "traitor" list and start taking his interactions at face value.

Very happy with the Luccio development- I never felt her character was written up to par with the rest of the supporting cast and her resolution was much more intriguing than the oft-expected killing her off or having her be the traitor.

Butcher still writes the best action scenes in the business IMO. The skinwalker was an awesome foe. I was also happy that while Harry did a helluva job taking it on, Butcher let Listens-to-Winds actually defeat it. As powerful as Harry seems, it was an excellent contrast to how much more powerful some of the senior council can be.

Also, I continue to admire the restraint with which Butcher uses his supporting cast. I think most authors would be tempted to force them into every book. As neat as it would have been to see Micheal, Marcone, Kincaid, MacNalley (is this the first time he hasn't been in a book?), Ramirez etc, I think that benching people periodically reduces the possibility that they may get overplayed. As is, it kind of feels like a TV series where Harry, Molly, Murph, and Thomas are the only regulars with everyone else on Guest Star status (and I think Thomas may be put into the latter role now). Vince seems a good addition, especially since he actually seems to be a better actual investigator than Harry.

This post has been edited by kmgrey: 11 April 2009 - 06:03 AM

[kmgrey]

Re: The Council's Actions

Spoiler

I didn't think their behavior was really inconsistent:

- They are enormously political. Harry seems to have the impression that while a couple like Ebenezer care for what it "right", many are just clinging to power for power's sake. So there will be a natural tendency to retreat into their shell and deny anything that represents a change to their status quo. I thought that was exemplified in Mai's repeated statement of just searching for the simplest answer. Considering how people get appointed to the Senior Council, it certainly isn't based on merit.

- As LaFortier's death proves, there is mortal danger in engaging with the traitors. So calling the "Black Council" out may make one a target.

- It's all through Harry's perceptions so we don't have the whole story. Morgan was pretty one-note until somewhere around Book 7 where Harry started to empathize with him and by Turn Coat I was genuinely saddened by his death. The Merlin is now starting to become more fleshed out (loved the instant battle plan) and I won't be surprised if future volumes give us more detailed look at Ancient Mai and the others.

Re: the skinwalker

Spoiler

I agree that it seems kind of a loose end. While it may be lazy writing on Butcher's part just as a way to get a new creature for Harry to fight, Butcher has left loose ends in books before only to circle around to them later so I wouldn't be surprised to see this addressed again. I have my doubts that Peabody was the most senior traitor so I think we'll find out more to the story. There may even have been more to it being LaFortier selected to be killed- if the Black Council wanted to open up a seat on the senior council, then it would probably have made more sense to go after someone potentially more hostile to them like Ebenezer or Listens-to-Wind.

[vaiski]

kmgrey, on Apr 11 2009, 08:16 AM, said:

I'm flabbergasted by the (relative) disappointment from many here. I'd rate the book probably second in the series behind Dead Beat.

Spoiler

Turn Coat certainly is not a bad book, and while not quite up there with Dead Beat or Death Masks it's still very good. My disappointment is solely because I expected the traitor issue advance (much) more than it did. I understand that with 10 books still coming Butcher cannot make huge leaps in one book, but as Dresden & Ebenazar are almost at same position as they were in Book 8 I remain disappointed.

Re: the supporting cast - yeah, and it is amazing that Butcher has managed to create so many excellent characters. Whoever are in the next book, I'll be excited to read about them. That said, Harry has been hanging on to Shiro's Sword quite a bit now so perhaps that in book 12... please?

This post has been edited by vaiski: 11 April 2009 - 01:46 PM

[kmgrey]

Re: traitor

Spoiler

Seems like it was dealt with to me. They found a traitor on the council. As I said in my first post, I think we were expecting someone a bit more important but I think that the specific traitor thread introduced around Book 8 has been dealt with. I do think we'll find out later that someone more senior is involved but Butcher hasn't put those cards on the table yet so I wouldn't call that an open thread at this stage.

Frankly, I think people looking for more concrete plot progression from here on out are going to remain disappointed- the "one File per year" approach just doesn't work in the context of all out civil war on the White Council. Because of that, I think that things will continue to be somewhat low key until the final trilogy.

[Zanth13]

Spoiler

I still think ebenezer is a traitor....

word

rashid i dont think is at all, and from the book it looks like some people think Harry is a good replacment for Rashid as the wather or what ever...

that is where the series is going im sure, with harry taking up the role, or at least fighting the others (the demons from beyond or what ever) we know this because he has some kind of power over them and a history... he beat one before as a child... and im sure they are playing a role as a major baddie...

What is that damn Island in the never never... that is the million dollar question, they never explain but they come close, rashid was aghast and so was Listens... plus the name demon reach is very fitting they say... so it has something to do with demons, and perhaps the demons from beyond?

[Coco with marshmallows]

got it.

read it.

thoroughly enjoyed it.

Now ive got to wait another year before i read the next one.

GOD-DAMN IT

overall, i'd give it a seven or so out of ten

Spoiler

i think one of the issues re the fighting on the island, when listens fights the skinwalker he is in close physical proximity, and can see it at all times

when they're fighting zombies/spiders etc, the fact that they are on a heavily forested island at night in crappy weather seems to come into play. They know the bad guys are out there, but can't draw a reliable bead on them to flatten them. Same reason Binder couldn't kill the werewolves with the shotgun.

And i may be mis-remembering here, but doesn't the presence of that ley-line, ley-source point, whatever, make it difficult for people to sense each other magically?
too much background radiation, that kind of thing? the only reason Harry knew about where everyone was coming from, could run in the woods at night, etc, was because of Demonreach

by the way, i got the book in the UK on thursday the 9th. definitely the UK edition, from the spelling of small favour on the other books in the series page.

[Obdigore]

Spoiler

Justin DuMorne is still alive on and is one of they key players on the black council.

You heard it here first.

[Stalker]

Well I got it yesterday, and read it yesterday. Unfortuantely it is very difficult to put them books down so I always finish too fast. (That's what she said lol).

I like Obdigore's theory, would be interesting.

[Paran]

Found the book mildly disappointing after Small Favour. Almost copy-and-pastish in comparison to other books. Hopefully an aberration and the rest of the books will really pick up gears.

[Aptorian]

drza44, on Apr 10 2009, 12:36 AM, said:

Spoiler

3) Harry's "goodness". Honestly, for me, Harry has been a bit "too" good for me throughout this series. Some of his stances where he has dug his feet in, and the "only pure love no lust" theme over years at a time was not vibing with me so much. Seemed much more teenaged audience/young prince than 30-something grown up to me. So for him to be having a much more casual relationship with Luccio while also being more practical in his dealings with the White Court...those things, to me, give Harry a bit more depth. Most of the senior Wizards call Harry "kid" or some other nickname to emphasize his youth, and in this aspect I think that Harry being a bit more gray would be a sign of his growing up a bit, if you will.

Spoiler

But all those things, his distaste for supernatural predators, his "his opinion on love and relationships, etc. are what make Harry Dresden so exceptional. He never compromizes. The sacrifice of one man for the greater good is not acceptable to him. That is why he worked to save Morgan.

Much of what Harry does and says in this book is not in key with Harry's normal behaviour.

And changing things up now does not make sense. Unless he's been tampered with... again.

Obdigore, on Apr 13 2009, 05:01 PM, said:

Spoiler

Justin DuMorne is still alive on and is one of they key players on the black council.

You heard it here first.

No real need to spoiler that theory.

In my opinion, Justin DuMorne could return. He doesn't need to be alive, with the power we suspect is at the hands of the Black Council, bringing back spirits is very possible.

Something I have been speculating about.

We keep getting more and more info about Mother Dresden, but what about the father? We thought he was just a vanilla mortal, but in one of the books he appears in Dresdens dreams and he sounds like he knows... stuff. What's up with that?

[Abyss]

I've read the above comments re TURNCOAT but rather than point-by-point, here are mine...


OVERALL - solid entry and i enjoyed it more than the last few books. SMALL FAVOUR, WHITE NIGHT and PROVEN GUILTY were all solid but i didn't find that they ratcheted up the tension quite as high as this one. Perhaps because in those books Harry didn't seem quite as outclassed or as overwhelmed quitenas often - here he really seemed up against it, which always makes it that much more awesome when he pulls his shit together.

HEADACHES - that sort of came and went, didn't it? I'm wondering if Uriel's influence is at play - Shaggy notes the contradiction of Dresden using soulfire but not having faith in God.

NAGLOSHII/Skinwalker/Shagnasty/Snaggletooth - fun baddy and i really liked the bit at the beginning about how using the sight nearly wrecked Hary and how he dealt with it. And i'm cool with him surviving - something this evil shouldn't die in one book.

SUPPORTING CAST - ...were STRONG in this book.

Most of the strongest non-action moments in this book were Harry playing off of other characters. SO MANY supporting characters had a moment or more to shine...

Will and Georgia taking out Madeline; Murphy taking out Binder's goons and Binder (and virtually every line she had); Lara kicking open a wall, arming up and going at Shaggy; Morgan repeatedly, but especially how he took out a Skinwalker; the entire Senior White council in different ways got a lot more play than in the past, even the Merlin had his moment and L-t-W's fight against Shaggy was awesome; Thomas' entire plot line and how it played out, esp with Justine's involvement... nice touch, that, and i thought the last scene with Harry was just right - Harry indignantly accusing him of being weak by eating those victims wouldn't have been in keeping with how highly Harry values having a brother; Molly... Butcher clearly enjoys writing this character; and Toot Toot completely stole the show at the end.... charging the Skinwalker with a box knife for the Pizza Lord... PERFECT.

DEMONREACH - i initially had a similar reaction to some of the above - 'is Butcher really going right back to this Island so soon?'... but it worked, and it gave Harry his more or less mandatory powerup-per-book in a really neat way. I liked Rashid and Ebenezer's hints that this is much bigger than he knows.

Btw, re the above wondering why the island stopped Shaggy but not the Denarians, there was no sanctum ritual in place in the last book.

THE LUCCIO THING - we all knew it couldn't last but i did laugh at their break-up conversation.

PEABODY - ...pretty much screamed 'traitor' at the beginning. Mai was too obvious, as was the Skinwalker and LtW's common Native background, and Merlin, Ebenezer and Rashid all have bigger rolls to fill. I saw where Butcher was going but still enjoyed how he got there... and there was still another unknown player with Peabody at the end.

THE STAND-OFFS - those were very funny. Serious, sure, but funny, and Mouse stole the show each time.

EBENEZER'S JOURNALS - anyone else think that in the last paragraph of the last Dresden book we're gonna find out the entire series were Harry's addition to that shelf of books?

MORGAN - he went out well. I have no problem with it.

ONE-LINERS - There were some awesome one-liners in this book. I can't remember them accurately offhand without the book handy, but paraphrasing a couple....

"I'm not going out lying on the ground. I'm going out bloody and spectacular." *gets up, takes a strong shot at Shaggy, fails, Shaggy comes on again... "wel, here comes bloody and spectacular."

re Molly: "Molly could grow up to be a very scary person."

"Mouse once got hit by a minivan, got up, chased it down and returned the favour."

...and my absolute favorite...

"I'm the wizard who rode a zombie dinosaur into a battle against the Heirs of Kemmler that had flattened Morgan and Luccio before they even got there... and won."


HINTS OF THINGS TO COME - I liked that the Grey Council is actively working against the BC now. I'm curious about how Demonreach becomes a factor. I liked Vince as a new supporting character.

I'm totally expecting a story about Will and Georgia having conceived a child on the island, and it's probably going to appear in another &%#(^ing

anthology.

- Abyss, ....notes my lovely local library just let me know it has MY BIG FAT SUPERNATURAL WEDDING and HONEYMOON on hold for me, so i get more, MORE Dresden crack, YAY!

This post has been edited by Abyss: 15 April 2009 - 07:23 PM