[Aptorian]

Wild E Coyote... Suuuuuuper crazy!

[Abyss]

I loved that bit.... 'just don't look down'...

- Abyss, tried that once or twice as a kid.

[Coco with marshmallows]

by the way, does anyone know if Butcher plans to release an anthology of all the short stories he's done for Dresden?

I only ask because he's done, what, 5 or 6 now? must be getting on for a book's worth already,
and i imagine that there will be more to come.

[drza44]

Aptorian, on Apr 14 2009, 09:57 AM, said:

drza44, on Apr 10 2009, 12:36 AM, said:

3) Harry's "goodness". Honestly, for me, Harry has been a bit "too" good for me throughout this series. Some of his stances where he has dug his feet in, and the "only pure love no lust" theme over years at a time was not vibing with me so much. Seemed much more teenaged audience/young prince than 30-something grown up to me. So for him to be having a much more casual relationship with Luccio while also being more practical in his dealings with the White Court...those things, to me, give Harry a bit more depth. Most of the senior Wizards call Harry "kid" or some other nickname to emphasize his youth, and in this aspect I think that Harry being a bit more gray would be a sign of his growing up a bit, if you will.

But all those things, his distaste for supernatural predators, his "his opinion on love and relationships, etc. are what make Harry Dresden so exceptional. He never compromizes. The sacrifice of one man for the greater good is not acceptable to him. That is why he worked to save Morgan.

Much of what Harry does and says in this book is not in key with Harry's normal behaviour.

And changing things up now does not make sense. Unless he's been tampered with... again.

I'd disagree with you here. I don't think those stances, in and of themselves, are what makes Harry exceptional. In fact, I'd argue that natural life experience could have modified his views easier than any tampering. For instance, arguably the 2 most important people in Harry's life over the course of this series: his brother (and only blood relative) and the love of his life (thus far) are both supernatural predators. He obviously hates that part of them, but it's much harder to maintain "all vampires are evil!" when you in fact love a vampire (or 2). And there's nothing wrong with wanting relationships to be meaningful, but in the early Dresden books he seemed fine with having a casual relationship with Susan. When they first began, there wasn't any indication that she was going to become the love of his life. So for me, him going years without beginning even a casual relationship didn't vibe to me. His relationship with Luccio seemed to be following the same arc that his relationship with Susan began on, so again I don't think that requires tampering to explain.

Harry will throw everything into the fire to fight for something he believes in, that part is true, and part of what makes him exceptional. But I think those beliefs would be modified and tempered over time, especially as the life experiences start to add up. That's why I think the developments in Turn Coat give him depth more than making him seem tampered with

Abyssmally editted because it's okay, you don't need spoiler blocks anymore, really, go ahead, post to your heart's content, you're free, FREE little birds, FREE, spread your wings and fly! Or just post, whatever.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 16 April 2009 - 01:11 PM

[Abyss]

I tend to agree that Harry's evolution as a character has been logical.

Sure, he loved Susan, and while their relationship might have died of its own accord, instead she got semi-vamped with resultant angst, and it took him a bunch of books to get over it, but ultimately he DID and hence the Luccio thing.

It's stated more than once in TURNCOAT that his reason for helping Morgan is a) he's been hounded for something he didn't do and if Morgan gets taken out by the traitor, Harry was likely next in line. That Peabody had manipulated Luci' supports this, so he was right.

I also liked how Butcher acknowledges the time that has passed in the series and the impact on Harry. Back in the first few books Harry did push and push non-stop, and here he more than once states he's feeling the exhaustion more. Not that it stops him.

- Abyss, really needs to do a re-read one of these days.

[Coco with marshmallows]

heh. started a re-read on Tuesday. I'm just finishing off Grave Peril now.

Had to buy a new copy of Summer Knight, as i couldn't find mine. the curse of having too many bookshelves - things are NEVER where you leave them.

[Abyss]

Heh - Summer Knight was where i went from like to LOVE the Dresden Files series.


- Abyss, notes "I don't believe in faeries!" <- best battlecry ever.

[Use Of Weapons]

Finished it now! Woo-hoo!

My thoughts:

1. Molly. [ ]Agree, one of my favourite characters, I love how she is being developed[/ ]

2. The Council [ ]I can happily accept that Listens to Wind could defeat Shagnasty because of his heritage and specific knowledge deriving from Native American tradition. The grey men from the Never Never had no such history with the members of the council they faced.[/ ]

3. The Merlin. [ ]I liked the view of him here. He's still a hugely political animal, but more depth, and much more capable than suspected. We'd only had second-hand reports from Harry about his magical prowess before, and I don't know how much even Harry believed of it -- but at least now we know, the Senior Council and the Merlin are there on merit.[/ ]

4. Black Council. [ ]I disagree that the Council members (Ancient Mai, Merlin, etc.) don't realise that there must be a conspiracy. They are political to the extent that they believe that admitting openly that there is one would be divisive, and that decision means they cannot act in ways that would reveal them to accept the existence of a conspiracy. This was fairly clear from the ending, I thought -- not a question of stupidity or obtuseness.[/ ]

5. Thomas. [ ]Oh dear. But the seeds of Thomas's return are there in the scene at the zoo, too. It will take some soulsearching, but I think he'll be back as we know him. [/ ]


Great book, great addition to the series. Dresden-by-numbers? Not in my book.

Abyssmally editted because you can STOP USING SPOILER BLOCKS NOW!!!!

This post has been edited by Abyss: 17 April 2009 - 12:42 PM

[Morgoth]

I don't know exactly what I thought about this book. Sure it had the classic dresden elements, but there was little new brought to the table and it was so very very predicatable. It was obvious that the clerk guy was the bad guy from the first scene he was in, and it was obvious that Anastasia was involved in some manner. There wasn't room for a third woman in Dresden's life.

This book left me wanting... something. Mainly I think I missed some sort of progression. The clerk was not a high ranking bad guy, just a well placed spy for the real bad guys. In the end, I feel the books are becoming too predictable, too similar. Sure it's cool action, but it's the same action. Dresden pulled through a convergence, he defeated one of the bad guys and cleared out a spy. But so what? Nothing was really accomplished. The overall plot took perhaps half a step.

Now, I hear people say that we can't expect progression in any serious amount because there's meant to be another ten books or so. Are we then supposed to accept that this series turns from a really really cool series to a milkcow? Cause that's the path it seemed to take with this book. Mind you, many things point to this book building the foundation for the next instalements, and if the next one turns out excellent then no worries, but I must admitt that I'm worried.

[drza44]

For me, and I can't remember how much of this I said on here before, some of the biggest take homes in this installment were in character development. Plot advancement is obviously important, and there was enough in there for me with the Harry/Island power-up/foreshadow, the introduction of the headaches that'll obviously be important, the start of the Grey Council, etc. But in a story this large, the plot can't advance to it's fullest IMO without the characters also being given room to keep pace.

A lot of the early characters have already been allowed to blossom: Murph, Michael, Susan, Marconne in particular. But of those originals, only Murph is still in the book-to-book arc of the story right now with Marconne showing up about every other book. And since the middle books, we've been introduced to folks like Thomas, Molly, Luccio, Lara, the White Council that are key people in Harry's life but that haven't really had enough face time to cement their status. Thomas has, but the development in this story gives him more potential to fully explore his limits that he didn't have before. All of the others that I mentioned became a lot more intriguing to me in this installment.

Molly was initially fun in a light sort of way as the uncomfortably hot teenaged daughter of his best friend, who also happened to be a Knight of God. Then when she had magic and a thing for Harry, that was also interesting but ultimately fluff. In recent books we've seen how Harry teaching her has been a power-up for him as well, which added more to her character. But in this one she was starting to stand on her own 2 feet a bit more...she's still his friend's hot daughter, but she now seems much more young woman than dangerous teenager. She's still an apprentice, but seems a lot closer to journeyman than newbie. She has her own opinions that she'll follow even if they aren't what Harry would have her do, but instead of rebellious teen she actually has some logic in her reasoning and even if she has to pay the consequence and learn from her decisions I think it's good she's making them now. In short, Molly's developed into a very interesting character and I think this book advanced her a lot.

Lara, similarly, has gone from fluff (smoking hot vamp demon) to mildly noteworthy (when she showed the brains to take over her house) to capturing my attention (the last scene in White Knight that ended with the explosive kiss) before this book. But in Turncoat was the first time that I could actually picture a working relationship between her and Harry moving forward that would make them a formidable team. Harry and Thomas can work the wizard/vamp powers in tandem, but when they do so it's as two strong individuals working together. Harry and Lara, due to the obvious sexual/non-relative tensions they can evoke in each other, can combine their two types of powers into something stronger than either could do alone. And in Turncoat, we also saw that they can do the same thing politically by using their political authority and playing off one another. Lara's obviously still a monster on the inside, but I also liked how her personality was shaped in this installment where she's ultra upfront about that even when trying to get Harry to work with her. Makes for a refreshing partnership, where both are blunt and honest (with the potential for some great one-liners), both are balancing the pros and cons of working with the other vs. selling them out/taking them down, both are both repelled by and (though they hate it) attracted to the other's power. Makes for interesting reading, and I think an installment like this was needed in the story to prepare us for Lara potentially becoming a more focal character moving forward.

Luccio's development had to happen. We knew the relationship as written wouldn't last, she hadn't been cooked enough to be the One. So it was nice that Butcher went ahead and played that plot thread out quickly enough that it isn't getting milked as we wait for the inevitable, and as a side benefit Turncoat ended their love affair in such a way that now Luccio HAS started to cook and very conceivably could be a tension-point if not an outright interest of Harry's again moving forward.

And as Harry advances, his relationship to the White Council had to be redefined. They're no longer one individual entity with power above his head that he isn't concerned with. Instead, it was important that Turncoat give us more individual face time with each council member. It was important that we were shown enough to gain greater respect for the Merlin as both a leader and as a Wizard. It was important that we see the relative difference in talent between Harry and LtW, to measure how much Harry has grown. It was important that we saw Harry able to do things that impressed Rashid, and that he finally re-kindle his friendship with the Blackstaff but now as more of an equal/subordinate than as a master/apprentice. Turncoat gave us all of this, and I think we needed all of it.

ETA: Even the growth of the werewolves from kids to adult full members was important and IMO handled well. And the little folks led by Toot Toot seem to be right on the verge of giving Harry another power up. He's used them to good advantage in the past, but the numbers of them that he's starting to recruit and the fact that Butcher keeps emphasizing to us how nobody else has thought to use them makes me think that at some point they're going to be more than just occasional secret helpers and that they'll be a more vital part of Harry's strength.

So yeah, I would expect probably a larger ratio of plot development vs character development in the next books, but I do think that Turncoat (or something like it) was necessary to let us get to know the characters that will be integral to these next installments.

This post has been edited by drza44: 17 April 2009 - 05:00 PM

[Abyss]

Excelent points. wanted to comment on this one...

drza44, on Apr 17 2009, 12:52 PM, said:

...
And as Harry advances, his relationship to the White Council had to be redefined. They're no longer one individual entity with power above his head that he isn't concerned with. Instead, it was important that Turncoat give us more individual face time with each council member. It was important that we were shown enough to gain greater respect for the Merlin as both a leader and as a Wizard. It was important that we see the relative difference in talent between Harry and LtW, to measure how much Harry has grown. It was important that we saw Harry able to do things that impressed Rashid, and that he finally re-kindle his friendship with the Blackstaff but now as more of an equal/subordinate than as a master/apprentice. Turncoat gave us all of this, and I think we needed all of it....

...your observation of the growing respect between Harry and individual members of the council is dead on, and could even go one further. The Merlin actually acknowledges that Harry could help him save Morgan. At the island, where Mai orders the wardens to arrest Harry, everyone pauses and Harry realizes it's because they are actually afraid of him. Someone, possibly Rashid or Ebenezer, mentions that Harry is the most gifted (or was it 'powerful'?) wizard of his generation. For all that Harry started the series as an outcast and a distrusted rebel who probably was responsible for starting the war with the vampires, his time as a warden (and the respect that generated from the younger wardens) has caused them to take him seriously. It was an interesting shift.


- Abyss, still cracks up at the "...wizard who rode a zombie dinosaur..." bit.

[Zanth13]

and dresden is being looked at to take Rashids spot in the future some time...

word.

[QuickTidal]

I agree wholeheartedly shot for shot with what Abyss said about the book. It's one of my faves, and really seems to be opening up the behind the scenes of the wizard council world.....and the ending was BADASS!

[High Marshal Flit]

I'm really glad that someone brought up the issues with the plot development, because while it hasn't really taken away from my enjoyment of the series, it has made me think a lot about the technique involved. It has to be extremely hard to progress a large plot using only one point of view while advancing the plot during action that only uses about a week or so in each book. I mean, think about it, or better yet try it. The only thing I can compare it to (off the top) is the Anita Blake series, and we've all seen what a cluster fuck she's made of that series. I mean damn, you only have Harry's point of view and a limited time in each book, but you have try to develop your main character, plus how many others, all the while pushing the subplot of the individual book so that it's exciting and engrossing while still intertwining that with the big picture but not so hard that it takes away from the stand alone aspect of that book. Just writing that sentence twisted me up, so imagine the line that Butcher has to walk. If he tripled the size of each book, and included 2 other points of view, it would just be average, so I'm really in awe at the discipline that is needed to develop and plot out the details needed to produce the Dresden Files within the limited structure that he's created. Mind Freaking Blowing!

[Coco with marshmallows]

by the way, on a re-read at present (just finishing off Death Masks)

anyone else thinking Harry's mum may still turn up as a major plot point. Not necessarily ALIVE, but.....

Death Masks is really one of the first books to give anything vaguely concrete regarding Harry's mum,
and we get two points, both from Nicodemus:

- he both liked and respected her, enough to try to save Harry's life. granted it would have been at the cost of the city of Chicago, but still.....
- he CLAIMS that she was murdered.

So, as well as running with the Sidhe, and having a kid with a Red Court vamp, she hung with the Denarians? I think she may well have been outright evil,
despite the fairly positive light she gets cast in.
I mean, everyone seems to look back on her antics almost as youthful high spirits, but Harry gets masses of suspicion for anything even vaguely dubious.

Frankly I wouldn't be too surprised if Mama Dresden not only turns up alive,
but has worked major mind mojo on a number of people to make them think she's dead.

Of course, on the other hand, maybe i'm just a suspicious sod.

[Aptorian]

Cocoreturns, on Apr 18 2009, 08:54 PM, said:

bFrankly I wouldn't be too surprised if Mama Dresden not only turns up alive,
but has worked major mind mojo on a number of people to make them think she's dead.

Hmm... Very "daddy Petrelli'ish" a la Heroes.

I don't think she was evil. More gray. I doubt, from the description we got in RCG (from a mind controlled Lucio thouh), that she would have teamed up with the likes of the BC because they are obviously up to very bad things.

Personally I think both Mother Dresden and Father Dresden could come back in spirit form. It sounded to me like, in one of the ealier books, that daddy dresden was reaching out to Harry. What he was up to is anyones guess.

[Zanth13]

I still think Ebenezer is a traitor...

I forgot what initially made me think this, but ive been saying it for a while...

and this book showed the death of the first major character... I wonder who else might bight the dust later on... Murphy? Mouse? Molly? Michael? I just realized thats alot of Ms... interesting... and morgan is an M too... trend anyone?

any way back to the point I think butcher my being getting more malazany in his writing as in characters are probably no longer safe...

i likes it like that

[Abyss]

Zanth13, on Apr 17 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

and dresden is being looked at to take Rashids spot in the future some time...

word.

I dunno... considering the various interactions, Harry could end up taking over from Gatekeeper/Rashid, Blacstaff/Ebenezer or even the Merlin (note he's got frikkin sitting Excalibur in his hallway), or, more likely, take on an entirely new role with a Grey council that actually makes an effort to change with the times, given the repeated assertions that the White Council is out of touch.

High Marshal Flit, on Apr 17 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

I'm really glad that someone brought up the issues with the plot development, because while it hasn't really taken away from my enjoyment of the series, it has made me think a lot about the technique involved. It has to be extremely hard to progress a large plot using only one point of view while advancing the plot during action that only uses about a week or so in each book....I'm really in awe at the discipline that is needed to develop and plot out the details needed to produce the Dresden Files within the limited structure that he's created. Mind Freaking Blowing!

I agree with HMF on this. There isn't a lack of plot development, rather, there is a slow but steady approach that really does work. We always get a piece of the puzzle with each new book. Sometimes it's a big piece, sometimes just a hint, but it's always moving. We did get the identity of the WC traitor this time, after all, and that was fairly significant.

Cocoreturns, on Apr 18 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

by the way, on a re-read at present (just finishing off Death Masks)

anyone else thinking Harry's mum may still turn up as a major plot point...
So, as well as running with the Sidhe, and having a kid with a Red Court vamp, she hung with the Denarians? I think she may well have been outright evil,...

The above is also interesting considering what ebenezer said about Harry's Mom being all pro-Justice and the Council taking a more active role in everything. Given Ebenezer's speculation about how that could have turned out, of course, that opens it up for her to have been not just grey, but out and out evil and looking to RULE THE WORLD! or something.

Aptorian, on Apr 18 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

...
Personally I think both Mother Dresden and Father Dresden could come back in spirit form. It sounded to me like, in one of the ealier books, that daddy dresden was reaching out to Harry. What he was up to is anyones guess.

Wasn't that established as Harry's subconscious?

Zanth13, on Apr 18 2009, 06:29 PM, said:

I still think Ebenezer is a traitor...

I forgot what initially made me think this, but ive been saying it for a while...

and this book showed the death of the first major character... I wonder who else might bight the dust later on... Murphy? Mouse? Molly? Michael? I just realized thats alot of Ms... interesting... and morgan is an M too... trend anyone?

any way back to the point I think butcher my being getting more malazany in his writing as in characters are probably no longer safe...

i likes it like that

I am going to absolutely lose it if Mouse dies. Mister too.


- Abyss, because you do not mess with family pets, dammit.

[Aptorian]

Indeed. That bit with Harry keeping Mister inside so that the Shapeshifter didn't get it had me very worried.

Of course we all know that Mister would have fucked up the Shagnasty, but still.

[Coco with marshmallows]

up to Dead Beat on the re-read.

Is it ever firmly established who Cowl and Kumonori (sp?) are?

I know there was a suggestion on here about them being some people from Archangel (the russian base that the vampires tanked)

but the fact that they seem to be somewhat decent despite using necromancy - i'm sure they're going to turn up again at some point in the future.








as for Harry's headache in Turncoat - could be Lash coming back maybe?