[Aptorian]

The Errant has every advantage you can imagine over Paran except for being, as of RG, unaware of the different houses. Paran is an untested Master of the Deck. The Errant rose to become an Elder God and spent his days kicking Forkrul Assail ass.

The Odds of Paran "winning" in a confrontation against the Errant, if the Errant was back in the Master Business, are like 1 in a million. Paran would need to cheat and get some other Elder God to swat the Errant or something like that.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Aptorian, on Apr 9 2009, 06:05 AM, said:

The Errant has every advantage you can imagine over Paran except for being, as of RG, unaware of the different houses. Paran is an untested Master of the Deck. The Errant rose to become an Elder God and spent his days kicking Forkrul Assail ass.

The Odds of Paran "winning" in a confrontation against the Errant, if the Errant was back in the Master Business, are like 1 in a million. Paran would need to cheat and get some other Elder God to swat the Errant or something like that.

I'm sorry Apt. I usually read your posts like dogma. However, this has to be one of the STUPIDEST posts you have ever made. Everything SE has stated, within the series language, is that the NEW is much more efficient than the OLD. Precisely because it has EVOLVED.

[Skywalker]

 Aptorian, on Apr 9 2009, 03:35 PM, said:

The Odds of Paran "winning" in a confrontation against the Errant, if the Errant was back in the Master Business, are like 1 in a million. Paran would need to cheat and get some other Elder God to swat the Errant or something like that.

Now the LHTEC and the Abysmal Army are going to unite and come at you with pitchforks and toilet plungers.

Well at least you admit Paran's an ascendant now...

[Aptorian]

I still don't admit he is an ascendant, it's likely but I remain unconvinced

@ Hoosier. As president of the WLTEF what else do you expect of me!

Think of it like this. The Master position is a weapon. It's only as dangerous as the wielder. If Dragnipur fell into the hands of young up and comming ascendant, lets say Gesler (yes yes, not fully ascended, but bare with me) who would you think would win if Draconus came back and wanted the sword? Would Gesler win just because he had the sword and Draconus had been out of the ascendant business for millenia? Or would Draconus turn Gesler into mince meat probably with a gesture of his hand?

Now who do you think one should worry the most about? A twenty something kid just comming into the business, with hardly a clue of the power at his disposal. Or the former Master of the Tiles? A, most likely, mortal man who was worshipped by the young races, rose to become a God, fought wars against the Forkrul Assail and generally managed to stay alive for a hundred thousand years in a game of powers?

The Errant has forgotten more things about the Master business than Paran will learn any time soon.

Anyway, this is another Who'd win fanboy discussion, can't be solved, and the Master position isn't really something you usurp I think, you are chosen.

I love the Errant, so much better than emo Paran.

[blackzoid]

The idea that the new must always win over the old is insane.

The Deragoth had no problem destroying Poliel.
The KCCM had no problem ripping up Treach.
The T'lan Imass had no problem destroying the human First Empire soletaken.
etc......

Personally I like the Errant, especially when he got rid of Feather Witch. Wonder if he will join the Crippled God's side.
He could join those other happy-go-lucky fun guys, Skinner and Kallor.

[Sheve]

did not the errant surrender the power he had over the world and now only have power in/over the city of letheras?

cant check it right now because i lost my MT and RG is with a friend, but i think i read something about that.

if thats so then Paran could very well kill him.

[Daemon_Monkey]

 Sheve, on Apr 9 2009, 02:07 PM, said:

did not the errant surrender the power he had over the world and now only have power in/over the city of letheras?

cant check it right now because i lost my MT and RG is with a friend, but i think i read something about that.

if thats so then Paran could very well kill him.

He did but then he started to take his power back during RG.
That said, the Errant has been dormant for (likely) hundreds of thousands of years and his power is only now reawakening.
Besides, did he really seem all that powerful in RG, even if he does have power he's not been particuarly useful with it, I seem to remember him making a considerable number of mistakes. Not least the whole thing with Feather Witch.
Also, remember that Paran wont exactly be friendless. The Errant has seriously pissed off any number of people lately, not least Mael

[foolio]

yeah, I thought the Errant was only a fraction of what he once was, power-wise. Sure he used to kill FAs for sport but I didnt get the impression that he was still capable of such activities any longer...
I am surprised we have Errant fans. Forget all the bad things he did, killing Trull, etc, and focus on one thing only, the dude willingly was a sex slave for his own son. Come on, if that does not gross you out nothing on earth will.

I also have noticed a pattern of people being powerful, or not , when it is convenient to the plot. Quick Ben gets scared and runs from Kallor in MOI, but totally blasts Silchas Ruin out of the sky in Reapers Gale. Maybe I am wrong but I thought Silchas Ruin was MUCH more powerful than Kallor...

[Sinisdar Toste]

well in not sure he was running scared. he'd just dropped kallor into a hole in the ground, more like running in chagrin. i think that QB could defend himself from kallor if he had to. and keep in mind that since MoI QB got "stretched" by icarium, and had a bit of practice throwing his weight around

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 09 April 2009 - 02:07 PM

[blackzoid]

Let's not forget that the Errant did want the Pack stopped in MT, as he was afraid of the T'lan Imass returning.
Not convenient to admit this I know, but he is NOT a evil for evil's sake character.

Do we hate Icarium more, even though he has killed VASTLY more people then the Errant ever has.
No, because he is a sympathetic character. Poor old Errant, if only he conveniently forgot every bad thing he did and had a nice personality. Then we'd forgive him killing a city of Trulls!
Thats the important thing right? Being friendly.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 09 April 2009 - 02:09 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

absolutely! didn't your mother ever teach you how to be a proper young lady?

[blackzoid]

And not minding the mountains of corpses of people that Icarium leaves in his wake. Cos he is a proper little lady.
Babies babies and more babies. All who could have grown up to be Trull like in their awsomeness.
All forgiven.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 09 April 2009 - 02:24 PM

[Daemon_Monkey]

I think its more that Icarium doesnt do it on purpose, as opposed to Errant's more.... concious form of mass slaughter and killing
Also

Quote

Forget all the bad things he did, killing Trull, etc, and focus on one thing only, the dude willingly was a sex slave for his own son. Come on, if that does not gross you out nothing on earth will.

Come on people, that's just wrong

[dawnkiller]

 Daemon_Monkey, on Apr 9 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

Quote

Forget all the bad things he did, killing Trull, etc, and focus on one thing only, the dude willingly was a sex slave for his own son. Come on, if that does not gross you out nothing on earth will.

Come on people, that's just wrong

Um yeah, I was squicked. Although -- I thought it was actually an indication of how the Errant's power had been on the decline, at least in MT. He was sleeping with whatshisfact, the chancellor (or whatever the title of I Swear To God I'm Not An Evil Vizier was) while at the same time occupying the position of Janelle's Consort -- which granted him secular power by allowing him to influence the human courts. As Ascendants go, he's not a physical powerhouse -- his influence is more immaterial. I was actually shocked when he rid the world of Feather Witch because it was, I think, the first time we'd ever seen him even use any sort of physical force whatsoever. (And then, when I got over my shock, I had myself a little party. People do remember what she was doing with Brys' finger, right?) In focusing on directly influencing humans -- and from a human level -- it seemed as if his own influence had narrowed to Lether even though the Errant was worshipped by Barghest, Trell etc. This might be part of that "gods in the mortal world leave themselves vulnerable" thing that is sometimes mentioned, even more than the mere physical danger. Mael, perhaps, has suffered by choosing to live as Bugg and largely eschewing his godly duties -- if beign active on the mortal plane weakens your, uh, metaphysical power, I guess, that which would explain why a jerkass like Mallick Rel is still leeching off him. You'll notice the ones most often regarded as gods (Hood, T'riss, etc) as opposed to things like First Heores (ala Trake) rarely appear on the human plane. Perhaps Ascendants can't have it both ways.

So yeah -- it's very difficult to judge the power level of Ascendants because they come in all stripes. There's physical-oriented Ascendants like Dassem, magical Ascendants like Envy, and those who play more with the spaces in between, like Oponn. Even if they're all comparable in the level of damage they can take, the degree -- and type -- of damage they can deal varies widely. I mean, it's sort of implied in TtH that Fisher, too, is an Ascendant, and while he can survive a firefight just fine I'm not sure his sphere of power is anything beyond inspirational.

That said, power vs. power doesn't always decide confrontations, as seen with the goddess Poliel being taken down by an Ascendant-or-near-that with a chunk of Otataral, so I don't see a lot of point in speculating on who'd win what. Way too many variables.

[Grief]

There are many examples of old defeating new. There are also many examples of new beating old.
Neither one wins by merits of being older or newer than the other.

The errant has considerably more raw power than we have seen from Paran.

On the other hand, Paran isn't stupid, he's unlikely going to try to take the Errant face to face.

Paran also has some seriously powerful friends. There are also probably some people who would support Paran simply because they don't want the Errant back.

In a straight fight, my money would be on the Errant. However, I reckon it's not going to be close to that simple, and Parans in with a good chance.

[Ectemnius]

I took to a dictionary for help on the subject:

Ascendant: superior; predominant; above the horizon; superiority or commanding influence.
Ascendancy: governing or controlling influence
This according to Nuttals of 1908

The Oxford advanced of '75 says:
Ascendancy: (position of) having power.

That combined with what Aptorian said in the quote below:

Quote

Someone once made a theory about ascendants, I think it was Imperial Historian, that an ascendant is someone who breaks the bounds of his own races limitations. You become an ascendant when you are the pinical of your own race's potential.

It seems to me then that Ascendants are beings who are at, or near the pinnacle of their race, thus being elevated (above the masses / others) and therefor have power/superiority and/or controlling influence.

This, though a nice definition it may be, does not allow us to rule out anyone who is in the 'grey zone' as being or not being an Ascendant.

Take the self appointed High King for example. He certainly has characteristics mentioned above, although he is not ascended due to the curse laid upon him by three Elder Gods in the prologue from Memories of Ice.

I'd add the following piece then: they draw powerful forces towards them. As we know, power draws power is a universal law in the world of Malaz. Ascendants have 'some' power and therefor other powers will be attracted, leading to convergences.

Kallor certainly is not part of the convergence in Darujhistan which occurs in Toll the Hounds.
The rest, which are 'real' ascendants, are at the coffee table for the meet: Anomander Rake, Dassem, Hounds of Light, Hounds of Shadow, Karsa Olong, etc.

Another example for this is Kruppe, he has 'the power of divination', yet does not draw powerful forces to himself.

Now lets hope I didn't overlook some Hood blown character who can wreck my beautiful theory!

This post has been edited by Ectemnius: 09 April 2009 - 03:57 PM

[foolio]

Aptorian said

Quote

Kallor and all the great ravens are how ever mentioned as ascendants, so that shows you how trustworthy those lists are.

So is Kallor an ascendant or not. Abyss told me in another thread that he is, I didnt think he was. Is there any sort of consensus on this??? I thought the curse was "to never ascend...."

[Grief]

Yes, but the curses are weakening.

K'rul is no longer forgotten.
Draconus is no longer in Dragnipur.

[RangerSG]

 Grief, on Apr 9 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

Yes, but the curses are weakening.

K'rul is no longer forgotten.
Draconus is no longer in Dragnipur.

Weakening doesn't mean broken. Burn still sleeps. Sorry, Kallor isn't an ascendant. If he was, he wouldn't need the alchemy and the aid of the CG to stay alive. In fact, I'd say the very fact that Kallor clings to his "this worldly" immortality and plans to cheat the elders is proof he's not ascendant. Ascendancy consistently involves giving up your ties to this world. Kallor has not done that and shows no inclination of that.

As for the Errant, if you think Paran is an emo...ugh. The Errant is sick,and annoying in his unending pathos, "Oh, I didn't want to be a god...but I made myself one...and now I'll show these people...but I'm too much of a wimp to do it now...ohh woe is me." At least Mael could find humor in the world still. The Errant's a constant whiner. Paran I can at least understand the emo. Come on, he was gutted, left for dead, the girl he grew to love was incinerated. His command wants to kill him for no reason other than he's an officer. Plus he's used as a pawn by the most capricious of deities that could be imagined, then sucked into a place no one is supposed to go in the manner he went...any other reason he shouldn't be a tad ambivalent? Compare that to Errant's "I guess I'll make myself a love slave to my son" emo and tell me that's a less valid reason. :S

[tiam]

Paran- contributes to helping the world swallow the jade giants
Errant- Simply swallows his son