[dawnkiller]

Grief, on Apr 9 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

Yes, but the curses are weakening.

K'rul is no longer forgotten.
Draconus is no longer in Dragnipur.

I dunno -- technically, you could argue that Kallor's curses have all been fulfilled (K'rul WAS forgotten, Draconus was indeed brought down by his own weapon, and Nightchill was definitely killed by betrayal). The flaw in his curse was that he didn't foresee a way out of any of the predicted scenarios, whereas the Elders pretty much nailed shut the loopholes by including the word "never".

I agree with folks who say Ascendant has to have some spiritual/emotional aspect. If it was purely power and infamy, Kallor should have ascended right around the time he nuked his first continent. Still, he's powerful enough that it barely matters he isn't one -- at least, to the person fighting him.

[tiam]

your right to a certain extent. I think itdoes matter. Mortal flesh and all that jazz. If kallor has kinda reached the pinnacle of human skill but cant get past that to become one of the best because hes not an ascendent

[dawnkiller]

tiam, on Apr 10 2009, 08:29 AM, said:

your right to a certain extent. I think itdoes matter. Mortal flesh and all that jazz. If kallor has kinda reached the pinnacle of human skill but cant get past that to become one of the best because hes not an ascendent

Well, human frailty does matter somewhat, but he's also alchemically augmented (I think one of the things he uses is called a century candle to give him more years) -- he feels the pains of age, and presumably they'll one day catch up with him, but so far they don't seem to hinder him in a fight. And as annoying as it is to admit, he's actually been proven to be a more than competant swordsman. I also wouldn't be surprised if he had a few cheats incorporated to toughen him physically as well. The weird guy from Jakuruku in RotCG wasn't an Ascendant, but clearly had some bizarre physical stuff going for him.

Basically, Kallor has fashioned himself into a counterfit Ascendant -- physically as close as you can get while remaining mortal. Real Ascendants like Brood tolerate him because of his skills and experience, but there's still the sense of disdain for the poser. The abrasive personality doesn't hurt. Nonetheless, for your average schlub with a sword, if you meet him in battle the distinction might be lost on you.

Thing is, that detail doesn't matter. Kallor knows he's not a real Ascendant, even if he can mimic most of the traits, which is what makes the curse fun IMO.

[blackzoid]

Again with everyone conveniently forgetting that the Errant helped save Letheras from the T'lan Imass returning to slaughter everyone at the end of MT.

But its better to just be certain in one's opinions about him being an emo pussy right, cheerfully disregarding the fact that he has .......KILLED FORKRUL ASSAIL!
Creatures who easily can beat the shit out of Karsa!
So Emo pussy Errant >>>>>> Karsa

I like it! Anyone care to rethink their opinions on the Errant?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

This as already been discussed. The Errant is nowhere as formidable as when he destroyed FA. Now he is just a forgotten God who can only act inside Letheras and is incredibly weak even there.

[Grief]

RangerSG, on Apr 10 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

Grief, on Apr 9 2009, 03:33 PM, said:

Yes, but the curses are weakening.

K'rul is no longer forgotten.
Draconus is no longer in Dragnipur.

Weakening doesn't mean broken. Burn still sleeps. Sorry, Kallor isn't an ascendant. If he was, he wouldn't need the alchemy and the aid of the CG to stay alive. In fact, I'd say the very fact that Kallor clings to his "this worldly" immortality and plans to cheat the elders is proof he's not ascendant. Ascendancy consistently involves giving up your ties to this world. Kallor has not done that and shows no inclination of that.

He may only use the candles because he believes he isn't ascendant. After all, how would he know if its the candles, or if he's ascended, without stopping the candles, which he's not done. Paran doesn't know he's ascended after all.

What has Burn still being asleep got to do with stuff?

Also, the curse if "broken" in some cases.

K'rul isn't faded as he's meant to be. He's back. Not as powerful, but most EGs have less worship these days anyhow.

Also, if it's weakening, it can have weakened enough for him to have ascended. Maybe not as powerful ascendant as he usually would be, but he could still have some of the side effects of it.

Most mortals can't survive being stabbed through the chest with so little negative effects.

[Grief]

The other thing is, there are many paths to ascendancy.
Does the curse hold true for paths that didn't exist when it was made.
Also, it is possible to skip straight from mortal to god(see Iktovian) so there are definetely loopholes he could manipulate.

[blackzoid]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 10 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

This as already been discussed. The Errant is nowhere as formidable as when he destroyed FA. Now he is just a forgotten God who can only act inside Letheras and is incredibly weak even there.

Ah yes, the concept of over-estimating one side of a conflict and underestimating the other side.
Just ask the 3 Edur Draconic Sisters/ Raest/Poliel etc how that worked out. The Errant is conscious of his weakness, they were not.
Which one is dead/imprisioned and which one isnt?

[RangerSG]

Grief,

Even if he wouldn't need it, it still demonstrates he's clinging to this life. Any path to ascendancy involves giving up this life. Where has Kallor done anything but cling to his power, cling to who he is, cling to his own ability to endure?

If Kruppe denies ascendancy because he doesn't want the attention. Kallor is the polar opposite, he's not ascended because he WANTS to so badly. He draws mortal power to himself like a lodestone. Not realizing that every time he does this, he cuts himself off to his goal. If Kallor is ascendant, then there was no reason for ST and the Rope to go through what they did to ascend. They could've remained Emperor and Dancer.

[dawnkiller]

Grief, on Apr 10 2009, 09:17 AM, said:

The other thing is, there are many paths to ascendancy.
Does the curse hold true for paths that didn't exist when it was made.
Also, it is possible to skip straight from mortal to god(see Iktovian) so there are definetely loopholes he could manipulate.

I thought Baruk's statement about many paths meant study and enlightenment -- it would have suited his nature as an alchemist (and also someone like Fisher, who is an artist rather than a warrior, as most Ascendants seem to be). I can see Kallor studying like mad if the subject suits him, but not so much with the enlightenment. That tends to require a degree of humility and balance, which, uh . . . yeah.

The thing about Itkovian skipping a step -- well, first of all he had to die to get there, so if he did skip it he had to do so with one hell of a jump. Secondly, Itkovian, like Dassem, was revered and respected as a person -- good god, the man redeemed an entire pack of T'lan Imass, and that was AFTER being the last Shield Anvil of Fener. That's walking mythology right there. It is noted in MoI that Kallor is grudgingly respected, but not admired or even liked. I suspect that this is part of, if not largely THE, aspect of the curse the three Elder put on him -- he is denied Ascendancy by veneration. Certainly everyone (in MoI especially) seems to regard him as a joke. The other obvious path -- Ascendency by personal enlightenment -- he is denied by his own nature.

So IMO, Kallor = badass, but badass = !Ascendant. And there's nothing wrong with that. After all, Quick Ben's doing just fine without that kind of hassle.

[Grief]

That's because QB(and Kruppe) don't need to ascend. Mages have longer lifetimes anyhow.

As for Kallor, he could have ascended. You don't need to give up life to ascend.

Treach ascends as First Hero.
Dessimbelackis likely ascended while still on the first throne.
Paran doesn't give up his life, he remains active as a mortal.

Many ascendants seem Born ascendant. Osserc, Rake etc.
Then again, perhaps they did ascend along teh way somewhere like everyone else, cause they've got longer lifes anyhow.

I reckon Kellanved and Dancer could have ascended and remained the Emperor/Dancer, it jst would've been a really stupid move for them.
Staying in the mortal world leaves gods vulnerable, we know this from poliel. They had enemies.
Many were alarmed by the growth of Shadow, so I'm sure a few gods would be happy to be rid of them.
Staying in a vulnerable position is just not a good move for them, so of course they didn't remain Emperor and Dancer.
One of them comments that they don't want the throne, iirc.

[dawnkiller]

Rake definitely has some kind of special status, considering we've seen a contemporary of his in Endest Silann, and the guy wasn't looking too hot. Even Andii age -- just slowly. Rake, on the other hand, remained daisy-fresh (right until the point Dassem bounced Dragnipur into his skull, anyway).

I know you don't have to die to ascend, I'm just saying that the use of Itkovian's method for someone like Kallor was a little flawed, considering how different they are. Some people like Dassem and Coltaine (or verging on it in DG) seem to ascend via respect and veneration. It seems pretty clear that Kallor's just not suited to that method, if the opinions we've seen of him are any indication.

I also agree in that I'm not entirely sure Kellanved and Dancer had to give up their thrones to ascend -- I got the sense they basically allowed themselves to be ousted because they were aware of a bigger game and couldn't afford to split their attentions. The Malazan Empire < an entire Warren, and thus influence over the entire world. We know Kellanved was basically squatting the First Throne to keep it out of trouble . . .

[Grief]

dawnkiller, on Apr 10 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

Rake definitely has some kind of special status, considering we've seen a contemporary of his in Endest Silann, and the guy wasn't looking too hot. Even Andii age -- just slowly. Rake, on the other hand, remained daisy-fresh (right until the point Dassem bounced Dragnipur into his skull, anyway).

I know you don't have to die to ascend, I'm just saying that the use of Itkovian's method for someone like Kallor was a little flawed, considering how different they are. Some people like Dassem and Coltaine (or verging on it in DG) seem to ascend via respect and veneration. It seems pretty clear that Kallor's just not suited to that method, if the opinions we've seen of him are any indication.

I also agree in that I'm not entirely sure Kellanved and Dancer had to give up their thrones to ascend -- I got the sense they basically allowed themselves to be ousted because they were aware of a bigger game and couldn't afford to split their attentions. The Malazan Empire < an entire Warren, and thus influence over the entire world. We know Kellanved was basically squatting the First Throne to keep it out of trouble . . .

Firstly, this is due to Tiams blood, according to Andarist. Andarist denies her bloood, and thus ages, Rake accepts his and doesn't. Perhaps Tiam is life aspected? Or chaotic blood just keeps you young, which makes sense, considering that Life is chaotic. Perhaps whatever the Warren of Life is, is close to Starvald Demelain/Chaos.

Yes, Iktovians method seems odd for Kallor, I wasn't suggesting he could recreate it exactly. He'd have to become a god some different way.
Also, it doesn't need to invovle death, Dassem seems to be pretty much managing without.

He doesn't need to be respected/venerated. That could work, but essentially it just comes down to worship.
I doubt he could get worshipped from respect, but it seems entirely possibe he could be worshipped in other ways, such as the Seregahl, worshipped to keep away. I mean, the CG has worshippers, and he's twisted, so there's no reason Kallor couldn't be.

And yes, Godhood or a mortal Empire, which they hadn't been around in for years anyway cause they were researching. In fact, doesn't someone mention they were bored with the empire, and more power was always their aim? I think someone does.

[dawnkiller]

Grief, on Apr 10 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

Firstly, this is due to Tiams blood, according to Andarist. Andarist denies her bloood, and thus ages, Rake accepts his and doesn't. Perhaps Tiam is life aspected? Or chaotic blood just keeps you young, which makes sense, considering that Life is chaotic. Perhaps whatever the Warren of Life is, is close to Starvald Demelain/Chaos.

Yeah, I wonder about that -- if Tiam's blood alone is enough to make you ascend, or not. Then again, we've seen other Andii who can veer (like Korlat and Orfantal, IIRC), implying they've drunk as well -- none as deeply as Rake, natch, but they aren't Ascendants. Scabandari and Silchas Ruin, on the other hand, have and are. Thing is, Rake, Scabandari and Silchas Ruin were all leaders of their respective people's, so there's a lot of potential contributing factors there.

(And then there's that Eleint T'lan Imass running around out there, and god only knows how that happened.)

Quote

He doesn't need to be respected/venerated. That could work, but essentially it just comes down to worship.
I doubt he could get worshipped from respect, but it seems entirely possibe he could be worshipped in other ways, such as the Seregahl, worshipped to keep away. I mean, the CG has worshippers, and he's twisted, so there's no reason Kallor couldn't be.

Well, except the curse, anyway. It seems to have an effect comparable to K'rul's "doomed to dwindle in obscurity". I always thought, re-reading MoI, that it was vastly weird Kallor was accorded so little respect -- even the type you'd give to someone you hated but knew very well could still throw down. Everyone knew he called himself the High King, and I believe it was even said he travelled with his original throne, but somehow there was never that sense of awe you'd expect -- if not before you'd seen him in action (excusable, as he could have been a poser), than afterwards. It's as if Kallor's ability to imprint himself on human memory, even though he's done things like obliterate entire kingdoms, has somehow been crippled. It's almost like Cassandra's curse from Greek mythology. No matter how many times her prophecies turned out right (ie, always) no one ever believed her just because A God Said So. He can't gather any substantial number of followers because something about his actions just can't stick.

So far, the paths to Ascendency seem to be:

-Reach the peak potential of your race or vocation (the warrior types)
-Be worshipped/venerated (Dassem, Itkovian, Rake)
-Survive a life-changing experience, often with exposure to supernatural forces (Paran, Paran, Paran)
-Reach some kind of inner zen peak or something (speculation here, maybe Baruk)
-Maybe simply encountering some supernatural force (drinking Tiam's blood, for instance, but more speculation)

Since Kallor was High King you'd think that he'd have pegged at least the first, and possibly the second (if you sub out "worshipped" for "feared"), so I can only assume the Elder curse did something hinky there. At this point you'd think he'd have been exposed to the third and possibly fifth, and yet.

There's probably other ways to Ascend, but as Paran demonstrates, it's kind of hard to place because sometimes the Ascendants themselves don't notice it's even happened.

Quote

And yes, Godhood or a mortal Empire, which they hadn't been around in for years anyway cause they were researching. In fact, doesn't someone mention they were bored with the empire, and more power was always their aim? I think someone does.

I can't remember if it was speculation of someone else, or one of Kellanved and Dancer's little banterfests, but it does sound possible given Kellanved's temperament -- he built the Empire from nothing, and you get the sense he's not the kind of guy to be happy just sitting around at the top, especially if he can spot a bigger mountain in the distance. He seems to yearn for bigger and better games, which would make him possibly the only god we've seen whose only real fear is boredom.

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 10 April 2009 - 06:37 PM

[Ectemnius]

Grief, on Apr 9 2009, 10:33 PM, said:

Yes, but the curses are weakening.

K'rul is no longer forgotten.
Draconus is no longer in Dragnipur.

And Nightchill's been ripped apart by inhuman hands.

All three curses Kallor laid upon the Elder Gods have come to pass. But does that imply that the curse upon Kallor himself is resolved? As the last of his three curses is only comes to an end in the last events of Toll the Hounds we do not not know if it will.

I think the curse won't lift because of these two quotes in the prologue from Memories of Ice:

Quote

Draconus spoke, 'Kallor Eiderann Tes'thesula, you shall never acend.'

So, never ever. For eternity...

Quote

Three lives and one, each destroyed. For the one, the beginning of eternal hatred. For the three, a fair exchange.

A fair exchange because the three are Elder Gods and in the end, they will rise again.

Damn, sucks to be Kallor...

[blackzoid]

You kow, I reckon Paran's power will increase because the soldiers of Onearm's host are now almost worshipping him.
They know he killed Poliel and were very impressed. They also found out he fought in the Pannion war. He may acquire enough power from that worship to become a fully fledged god.
And then just like other gods, he will become chained by that worship. He needs to deny that worship pronto. In my opinion.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 13 April 2009 - 10:23 PM

[Grief]

Yes, to be effective as MotD he needs to be impartial. Unchained.
Worshippers would not be good for him.

[beru]

i think to acend you need to cut of your "chains" mentaly and get to your races limits... kallor holds to his status as High king and thus will not acend if he is posible
to die (wilingly giving up your life so on) is the clearest way to cut the chains that bind you to mortalety.

eks
Karsa stoped thinking of the world as he did and have set himself a new purpose (destruction of civilsasion) and thus acended sice he was surch a warrior/thinker (for a teblor)
dassem: cut him from the status as knight of Hood and first sword and set a new purpose
rake: lead his people from their ancestral land and having increased lifespan and sucts overnatural powers
baruk and the rest of the cabal: stop activliy ruling darjustan (im not that shure but its all i can think of)
paran have died and he left onearms host in MoI securing his cutting of chains (i think he is ascendant)

[ritchiediaz]

Interesting thread.

I've always taken the term Ascendant to be a both 'present tense' term - i.e. someone who is on the Path to Ascendancy, or is in the process of Ascending, and a 'past tense' term i.e. already Ascended.

Taking this, it's quite logical to assume that as there are many paths, some may be longer than others, and the spectrum of efficacy on each may be very different.

OK, what then is Ascendancy; it's clear it is not the path to godhood, it is something else - is it a precursor to Godhood?

If Godhood or being a God involves worship, is it possible that being a God is just a very specific specialisation of being an Ascendant?

i.e. Is it implied that Gods are Ascendants? It's certainly made explicit in some cases, but they are special cases with some other things going on:-

Traveller | Dassem Ultor | Dessembrae

In his Traveller | Dassem guise, Dassem Ultor is clearly identified as being an Ascendant.
However, as Dessembrae he is clearly marked as being a God but no mention of being an Ascendant is made. Maybe it is implied.

But they are the same entity are they not? But as Brys Beddict knows there is much to a name... see all the old sea gods for example.

Of course entities such as Rake and Caladan Brood are extremely powerful, but maybe that's becasue they completed their 'path to ascendancy' long, long ago.

Some random brain farts!

[RangerSG]

ritchiediaz, on Apr 14 2009, 10:27 AM, said:

Interesting thread.

I've always taken the term Ascendant to be a both 'present tense' term - i.e. someone who is on the Path to Ascendancy, or is in the process of Ascending, and a 'past tense' term i.e. already Ascended.

Taking this, it's quite logical to assume that as there are many paths, some may be longer than others, and the spectrum of efficacy on each may be very different.

OK, what then is Ascendancy; it's clear it is not the path to godhood, it is something else - is it a precursor to Godhood?

If Godhood or being a God involves worship, is it possible that being a God is just a very specific specialisation of being an Ascendant?

i.e. Is it implied that Gods are Ascendants? It's certainly made explicit in some cases, but they are special cases with some other things going on:-

Traveller | Dassem Ultor | Dessembrae

In his Traveller | Dassem guise, Dassem Ultor is clearly identified as being an Ascendant.
However, as Dessembrae he is clearly marked as being a God but no mention of being an Ascendant is made. Maybe it is implied.

But they are the same entity are they not? But as Brys Beddict knows there is much to a name... see all the old sea gods for example.

Of course entities such as Rake and Caladan Brood are extremely powerful, but maybe that's becasue they completed their 'path to ascendancy' long, long ago.

Some random brain farts!

All gods are ascendants. Not all ascendants are gods. Being ascendant, as many have noted, originally goes back to the "first hero" title. And many of those 1st heroes ended up gods. So it's not clear that ascendancy is not part of the path to godhood. It's just clear that being ascendant is not necessarily tied to becoming a god.

The Traveller guise is just that...a guise. It's a cover to "shield" others from who Dassem really is. Especially when he's in mortal lands and could thus be otherwise vulnerable. He can't hide that he's more than mortal. He can hide how MUCH more than mortal he is.

Rake is an unusual being. He's not called the "Denier" for nothing. It's clear that he COULD have been a god if he wanted to. But he was not willing to replace Mother Dark. Even then, it's not clear that despite his rejection of deification he still didn't receive it.

I know people point at Itkovian as proof that you can bypass ascendancy to godhood. But even if that's the case, his exceptional sacrifice is the exception that proves the rule. What he did clearly cut his bonds to mortality. I would submit he was ascendant, for at least that short while he was accepting the pain of the T'lan Imass. And the subsequent worship prevented his final death and transformed him into the Redeemer.

My point with Kallor is that he has never cut his bonds with mortality. Just the opposite. He clings to his status as High King. He clings to means to prolong his life. Doing so means that he cannot ascend, as he has willingly embraced infinite mortality over a path of release.