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Ascendants A rethink on what we should expect Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 07:04 PM

Ive just flicked through the weakest moments thread and people are saying that Silchas getting brought down by munitions and QB is a weak part. Personally i thought the anti climax was brilliant.

But this brings up the question- How powerful are ascendents? We see them firing CG bombs in darujhistan then being ambushed by marines. So a rethink

Ascendents are powerful. They have the power of atleast a couple of high mages i.e. they are more powefu than Tay or Cowl in most cases. As mentioned in ROTCG Rake held back rather than risk the destruction unleashed and opening a wound in the sky. Their power is immense and when unleashed is phenominal.

However we also have examples of serious beings being ousted in mundane ways. Poliel, Ruin even the sisters especially Sheltathta or whoever gets eatn by that bear Bonecaster. Theres numerous quotes about how gods in the mortal realm are always vulnerable( the only one that springs to mind now is Kallor in the MOI prologue saying 'one stray arrow...' as a risk to nightchills immortality.) People seem to have a problem with this simply because they have been built up as PWNAGE but realistically they are quite vulnerable defense wise as Toc mentions in MOI about Envy being vulnerable now that the soldiers know no escape is possible (when there marching on the Dmoin).

Therefore a rethink. Ascendents can unleash power and on occasion bring up wards that are incredibly powerful defensively but an ambushed being like silchas is vulnerable to munitions.

Ascendents can unleash power and can also take sorcerous power i.e. Spite vs Envy but are vulnerable to mundane ambushes

Any thoughts?

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 05 April 2009 - 09:46 AM

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#2 User is offline   Daemon_Monkey 

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 07:48 PM

Generally i would agree with this but I think it's also important to remember that just because you are ascendant, there is no fixed degree of power that you have, in fact im pretty sure it varies wildly. Look at baruk for example, he is (i think) both ascendant and been pretty much ruling darujhistan for a long time but he is totally outclassed by pretty much everyone nearby in TTH.
Also i would argue that the idea of ascendants all being strong against sorcery being wrong, we've seen a few ascendants with no sorcerous power at all so i would guess that its more dependant on the nature of the ascendant than just their ascendancy
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#3 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 08:08 PM

Baruks one of those ones were his ascendency is odd. But i take your point that there are varying degrees of efficacy. Also yes some ascendents do not have 'traditional' magical powers like say apsalar. They do have certain powers but not enough to set them above other ascendents.

But even these are vulnerable to mundane ambushes. Dassem for example not a magic user and was ambushed by a bear (which was odd). These beings of immense power can be felled by mundane means. I dont see the problem with it and cant understand why people beleive these beings are unbeatable because they beleive they are like the trohlbarol. Thought he was the best thing ever yet got done in by Masan Gilani
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#4 User is offline   RangerSG 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 12:10 AM

View Posttiam, on Apr 4 2009, 03:08 PM, said:

Baruks one of those ones were his ascendency is odd. But i take your point that there are varying degrees of efficacy. Also yes some ascendents do not have 'traditional' magical powers like say apsalar. They do have certain powers but not enough to set them above other ascendents.

But even these are vulnerable to mundane ambushes. Dassem for example not a magic user and was ambushed by a bear (which was odd). These beings of immense power can be felled by mundane means. I dont see the problem with it and cant understand why people beleive these beings are unbeatable because they beleive they are like the trohlbarol. Thought he was the best thing ever yet got done in by Masan Gilani


If you mean apsalar/sorry, I don't think she is ascendant, yet. She still clings to a mortal life too much to ascend. That said, she uses magic to shadowdance and traverses the shadow warren, so she has some magic. Apsal'ara, I don't think we've seen enough to know if she has magic or not.

The one thing that's clear is SE doesn't have a lot of "typical" confrontations. Most meetings of ascendants are ambushes. Killing Poliel was easy because; 1) the Master of the Deck is ascendant as well, 2) otataral was involved, and any magic-dependent being hit with that is effectively poisoned.

Same with Silchas, QB+munitions (from back-from-the-dead ascendant Hedge, btw so were they "normal" munitions?) from ambush is not a minor amount of power, especially as QB is verging on ascendancy himself. Most people I've read found that appropriate, if anti-climactic. It's hardly the first "shocker" that SE has used in a convergence. Besides, should've Silchas actually arrived, it would've been a stupid tragedy, with him destroying everything after the reason for his rage was already dealt with. The only thing I regret is it didn't kill him, as I hate Silchas anyway. :( But then, the "don't mess with mortals" moment for him was nice too. And I do get a kick out of those time the ascendants are put in their place for messing with mortal affairs without knowledge.
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#5 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 05:41 AM

Ascendants are merely more resiliant. That doesn't mean they are invincible. Hell, Sheltatha/Sukul who was eaten by a pair of soletaken Imass bears still needed her face to be ripped off to bring her down.
What it means is that a stab through the lungs doesn't bring them down. A wave of magic doesn't incinerate them. It requires a lot more mundane and magical trauma to truly defeat them. Hell, some of them are so hard to kill they need to be imprisoned instead (or, at least, the killing of them would weaken the murderer too much for it to be an acceptable risk). And before anyone points out that Silchas was brought down simply with two blades in his back, those weren't mundane blades at all, they belonged to another ascendant, and later (probably) became the sword that Withal forged for the CG.
A pair of cussers alone would do some serious damage to any ascendant, certainly anyone less than Rake's calibre. Add to that some Quick Ben magic, the same magic that made three other ascendants "never want to meet" him again...well, it's really no wonder the poor guy was screwed over.
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#6 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 08:11 AM

Just getting a few mentions out of the way before I address the question of Ascendants.

Baruk is probably, NOT, an ascendant. The Cabal are called the undying, secretive mages of Darujistan. Baruk is an alchemist and as such he and the other mages can have invented a flawless revitalising formula millenia ago. That or maybe the Tyrant made them Immortal. I don't think him or the the rest of the mages are ascendants because it doesn't fit. Ascendants attract trouble, they always, inevitably become the center of things. That's not what the Cabal seeks to achieve, it goes against their nature. Besides this, the Cabal mages are rather pathetic for an ascendant being, but then again, so is L'oric.

Ruin got one invested blade to the back. A blade that probably stayed in his back when he was thrown in the Azath. The shards that made up the crippled sword was more likely made from Ruins swords who were shattered by a Matrons deathcry.'

We don't know that the Master of the Deck is an Ascendant - Old members know the rule, quotes or it didn't happen! :(

Okay, so that out of the way, Ascendants!

Ascendants are most certainly not all extremely powerfull, stronger than the likes of Tay or more durable than Karsa. What signifies an ascendants power is their potential, their efficacy, to use an Eriksonian word. Ascendant can be much more than a mortal, their actions make ripples, they are change. They can become gods or monsters, they can be stronger, faster, better than their race but it is not known what determines this or how they evolve.

Someone once made a theory about ascendants, I think it was Imperial Historian, that an ascendant is someone who breaks the bounds of his own races limitations. You become an ascendant when you are the pinical of your own race's potential. This also mean that there by definition must be a great gulf between different races ascendants. Even the lowest of Jaghut would seem to be as strong as a human ascendant. So the Jaghut Tyrant must be Jaghut ascendants.

The only common trait we know of Ascendants is that they seem to be immortal, they have higher immunity to desease and they are more damage resistant than a mortal. Ascendants aren't all magical powerhouses, citybusters or dragonkillers, some of them seem quite weak.

You cannot compare the likes of Rake, Ruin and the Sisters with normal ascendants, they are ancient beings with draconean blood, worshippers and god knows what else.

The important thing to remember is that Erikson doesn't seem to put much emphasise on defense in confrontations, it's mostly all about aggresion and offence. While we hear of defensive wards, layering yourself in power, it doesn't seem to used much, it might not be practical if you're supposed to be able to move about. Thus anyone from the highest of gods to the lowest of grunts can fall to a stray arrow through the heart or eye.
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#7 User is offline   Daemon_Monkey 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 03:26 PM

Correct me if i'm wrong but in GOTM im pretty sure theres a confrontation between crone and Baruk where he pretty strongly implies he's ascendant ("There are many paths to ascendancy" or something like that)
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#8 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 03:49 PM

I guess he is an ascendant than. Unless it's a GOTMism.
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#9 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 03:55 PM

Actually it's Rake and Baruk.

It is a Gotmism anyway, because Rake mentions there are few who can look him in the eye without flinching or something, and Baruk replies that there are many paths to ascendancy. This is a Gotmism because even as an ascendant doesn't mean he could look Rake in the eye as such, unless he is quite a bit more powerful than implied, which isn't that likely considering vorcan being able to kill him. Then again, she does imply she would try for Brood, but I reckon Brood is fairly sure he'd take her.

Anyhow, yes it's a Gotmism in a way, but Baruk is still an ascendant.

It's also hinted in TTH that Baruk is one of the Cabal who brought down the CG, and to be that old he'd most likely be ascended, thouhg being an alchemist he probably has other means.
It's possible the two are linked, his ascendancy coming form some sort of alchemy.

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#10 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:04 PM

View PostGrief, on Apr 5 2009, 05:55 PM, said:

It's also hinted in TTH that Baruk is one of the Cabal who brought down the CG


What?

I know there was a crazy theory with no substance to it that suggested that the Cabal was the same mages as the Cirkle. I remember no real evidence of any connection between the two parties though.

If you're referring to the soul that Baruk catched from the CG dimension that proves nothing. Baruk fishes for the demons he uses, he just so happened to catch a soul from the CG dimension that strayed to close to Burns universe.
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#11 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:06 PM

Hmm, can't remember well, but doesn't the guy in the tower Baruk goes and meets hint at something?

Might be utterly wrong here.

Cougar said:

Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful


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Grief is right (until we abolish capitalism).
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#12 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:08 PM

The Ghost? I merely think the ghost said that Baruk was very, very powerfull and maybe something about Baruk being able to stop the convergence if he wanted... or something.
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#13 User is offline   Grief 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:11 PM

Hmm, not sure, but I find it unlikely Baruk could stop everyone around.
Rake, Envy, Spite, the Hounds, Shadowthrone and Cotillion to name a few.
Seems unlikely, unless he's an Elder God in disguise, and even then he'd be hard pressed.

Cougar said:

Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful


worry said:

Grief is right (until we abolish capitalism).
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#14 User is offline   Theotendo 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:13 PM

Hee hee. Hinter hinted at something *guffaw*
...I think I stepped in something...untoward...
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#15 User is offline   RangerSG 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 04:52 PM

Apt,

Re: The Master of the Deck.

Quick Ben is asked by Whiskeyjack if Ganoes Paran is ascendant: QB says "Near as" then. That's the beginning of MoI. By the end of course, he's soletaken as well. Add to that he is listed in the back of the book as "Ascendant/Unaligned "Master of the Deck (Ganoes Paran)" in tBH and I think I'm on safe ground saying he's ascended. In fact, he's told in tBH as well that he will soon have worshippers. So not only is he ascendant, he's on track for godhood. My guess being that he and the Errant are headed for a confrontation, with the winner taking control of a unified deck. Given that the Errant in RG acts rather annoyed when he's told there is now a MotD, and that the Errant suffers delusions of his own competency, I think he's going to make the mistake of putting himself in Paran's way.

This post has been edited by RangerSG: 05 April 2009 - 04:53 PM

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#16 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 05 April 2009 - 05:07 PM

The "Paran/Master of the deck is/is not an Ascendant" debate was a semi-serious discussion we had long ago. You can't actually find any evidence in the books that he is an ascendant. And it led to me coining the phrase "Quotes or it didn't happen".

Unless you have some kind of super new book with an update to the glossary there is no mention of Paran or the Master of the deck in the ascendant list. Kallor and all the great ravens are how ever mentioned as ascendants, so that shows you how trustworthy those lists are. They're basically just used to sum up all the beings of power and they don't look like they've been looked at since Erikson began the series. That he is mentioned as an unaligned, shows that he is just that unaligned, he could very well be outside the whole system.

It is of course very probable that Paran could be an ascendant, but it was my argument back in the day, that it would make sense to have a mortal master of the deck, since he would be outside of the ascendant competition for power. He would be a free agent, unaligned with any power or god, and as such neutral. Paran certainly has great power, and in the broadest sense of the term that probably does make him an ascendant, but nothing says he has to be an ascendant. And the Jaghuts talk in BH was just that talk, she had been out of the loop for over a hundred thousand years, she had no knowledge of the new system.
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#17 User is offline   Skywalker 

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:06 AM

@ Paran - In BH, Apsalar directly asks Paran if he is now an Ascendant. Here's the conversation (don't have the page number - found this via google, but it happens when they're chitchatting on the boat or have just disembarked near what was it, G'danisban?):

Quote

"Paran"
"Yes?"
"Have you now ascended?"
His eyes widened "I dont know. Nothing feels different. I admit I'm not even sure what ascendency means."
"Means you are harder to kill."
"Why?"
"You have stumbledd onto power, of a personal nature, and with it well, power draws power. Always. Not the mundane kind, but something other, a force of nature, a confluence of energies. You begin to see things differently, to think differently....."


Following on from that point, there are several references to how Apsalar doesn't have to worry about the plague because she is practically ascendant. Paran too... from this I deduce that Paran, although humble, is now ascendant.

However, as Baruk says, there are many paths to ascendancy, and if I may add to that, many types of power. So a "combat badass ascendant" is one thing, another is a "master of the deck ascendant" who may not kick as much ass, but is powerful in his own way.

Also as everyone seems to agree on this thread, Ascendancy implies "tough bastard to pwn" not "immortal"

ETA: I think later in the book Ganath tells Paran that he is now ascendant, and once he gets worshippers he will become a god. Don't have quotes for that though

This post has been edited by Skywalker: 06 April 2009 - 06:08 AM

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#18 User is offline   RangerSG 

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:16 AM

View PostAptorian, on Apr 5 2009, 12:07 PM, said:

The "Paran/Master of the deck is/is not an Ascendant" debate was a semi-serious discussion we had long ago. You can't actually find any evidence in the books that he is an ascendant. And it led to me coining the phrase "Quotes or it didn't happen".

Unless you have some kind of super new book with an update to the glossary there is no mention of Paran or the Master of the deck in the ascendant list. Kallor and all the great ravens are how ever mentioned as ascendants, so that shows you how trustworthy those lists are. They're basically just used to sum up all the beings of power and they don't look like they've been looked at since Erikson began the series. That he is mentioned as an unaligned, shows that he is just that unaligned, he could very well be outside the whole system.

It is of course very probable that Paran could be an ascendant, but it was my argument back in the day, that it would make sense to have a mortal master of the deck, since he would be outside of the ascendant competition for power. He would be a free agent, unaligned with any power or god, and as such neutral. Paran certainly has great power, and in the broadest sense of the term that probably does make him an ascendant, but nothing says he has to be an ascendant. And the Jaghuts talk in BH was just that talk, she had been out of the loop for over a hundred thousand years, she had no knowledge of the new system.


It's on page 797 of the trade paperback (US) of tBH. And I can't buy that no one checked on this, since he wasn't listed as such in the beginning. It may not be 100% accurate, nothing surely is. But it is in print. And I do have to agree that Apsalar and Paran not worrying about the plague is telling.
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#19 User is offline   Ectemnius 

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 02:30 PM

The Bonehunters, Chapter Eight (page 317 and 318 of the TOR Hardcover edition):

A conversation between Ganath and Paran at the edge of the Raraku sea.

"She glanced away. 'You are a strange god. Riding a miserable creature that dremas of killing you. Building a fire with which to cook food. Tell me, in this new world, are all gods such as you?'
'I'm not a god,' Paran said. 'In place of the ancient Tiles of the Holds-and I'll grant you I'm not sure that's what they were called-in any case, there in now the Deck of Dragons, a fatid containing the High Houses. I am the Master of that Deck-'
'A Master, in the same manner as the Errant?'
'Who?'
'The Master of the Holds in my time,'she replied.
'I suppose so, then.'
'He was an ascendant, Ganoes Paran. Worshipped as a god by enclaves of Imass, Barghast and Trell. They kept his mouth filled with blood. He never knew thirst. Nor peace. I wonder how he fell.'
'I think I'd like to know that detail myself,' Paran said, shaken by the Jaghut's words. 'No-one worships me, Ganath.'
'They will. You are newly ascended. Even in this world of yours, I am certain that there is no shortage of followers, of those who are desperate to believe. And they will hunt down others and make of them victims. They will cut them and fill bowls with their innocent blood, in your name, Ganoes Paran, and so beseech your intercession, you adherence to whatever cause they righteously fashion."

This post has been edited by Ectemnius: 08 April 2009 - 02:31 PM

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#20 User is offline   RangerSG 

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 09:50 AM

View PostEctemnius, on Apr 8 2009, 09:30 AM, said:

The Bonehunters, Chapter Eight (page 317 and 318 of the TOR Hardcover edition):

A conversation between Ganath and Paran at the edge of the Raraku sea.

"She glanced away. 'You are a strange god. Riding a miserable creature that dremas of killing you. Building a fire with which to cook food. Tell me, in this new world, are all gods such as you?'
'I'm not a god,' Paran said. 'In place of the ancient Tiles of the Holds-and I'll grant you I'm not sure that's what they were called-in any case, there in now the Deck of Dragons, a fatid containing the High Houses. I am the Master of that Deck-'
'A Master, in the same manner as the Errant?'
'Who?'
'The Master of the Holds in my time,'she replied.
'I suppose so, then.'
'He was an ascendant, Ganoes Paran. Worshipped as a god by enclaves of Imass, Barghast and Trell. They kept his mouth filled with blood. He never knew thirst. Nor peace. I wonder how he fell.'
'I think I'd like to know that detail myself,' Paran said, shaken by the Jaghut's words. 'No-one worships me, Ganath.'
'They will. You are newly ascended. Even in this world of yours, I am certain that there is no shortage of followers, of those who are desperate to believe. And they will hunt down others and make of them victims. They will cut them and fill bowls with their innocent blood, in your name, Ganoes Paran, and so beseech your intercession, you adherence to whatever cause they righteously fashion."



And even in MoI we see the Barghests and others looking for blessing from Paran, and obvious power when he (even inadvertently) uses the phrase. Thanks for the quote though. :p I don't get what would be used to prove he hasn't ascended other than he has humility.

And I still think Paran and Errant butt heads before the end. Good thing the Errant sucks.
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