[Excellence]

You all got it wrong. Thus, I explain.

Who sits their rump on the First Throne commands the T'lan Imass. They made themselves undead, but gave themselves a backdoor to undo it. They need a human Imass, to de-T'lan themselves. Sounds like a fragrance, D't'an, doesn't it? Mmmm, fragance, as Homer would say. Where was I? Right. The throne allows the Rumpsitter to enforce the Imass to the Rumpsitter's will.

Kellanved rumped himself on it. He commanded the Imass.

But because the throne was so ancient, there was problems. Only the Logros were compelled -- and only from "close" proximity to it. So when Rumpsitter then became Shadow Rump, he lost enough humanity to weaken Logros from its enthorned link.

Thus, they suddenly departed to the Jhag Odan to fight a war, and came back still free from the throne holder.

Shadowthrone knows this. He can't compell them again. He lacks form, and that point is something Bonehunters took effort to show. His insubstantial form each time you saw him.

Questions?

[Skywalker]

O RLY? We will see...

Excellence, on Apr 2 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

You all got it wrong. Thus, I explain.

Who sits their rump on the First Throne commands the T'lan Imass. They made themselves undead, but gave themselves a backdoor to undo it. They need a human Imass, to de-T'lan themselves. Sounds like a fragrance, D't'an, doesn't it? Mmmm, fragance, as Homer would say. Where was I? Right. The throne allows the Rumpsitter to enforce the Imass to the Rumpsitter's will.

Kellanved rumped himself on it. He commanded the Imass.

But because the throne was so ancient, there was problems. Only the Logros were compelled -- and only from "close" proximity to it. So when Rumpsitter then became Shadow Rump, he lost enough humanity to weaken Logros from its enthorned link.

Thus, they suddenly departed to the Jhag Odan to fight a war, and came back still free from the throne holder.

It is true that they left suddenly and that ST's control over them was weak. If you find quotes for that "proximity" thing, I will virtual rep you. But they left because they detected Jaghut, and not over ST's objections (he didn't care since he didn't want to use them).

Also, there is no 'backdoor' path back to mortality for the T'lan Imass. As we see in MOI, they seek dissolution, and release from the Vow that they will eternally hunt the Jaghut - there are few (if any) Jaghut tyrants left, but plenty of Tyrants from other species. The TI are just tired of fighting now. When they took the vow, they never thought it'd take this long. As a matter of fact, Pran Chole is startled in GoTM when Kruppe tells him 300,000 years will pass before they meet again.

Excellence, on Apr 2 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Shadowthrone knows this. He can't compell them again. He lacks form, and that point is something Bonehunters took effort to show. His insubstantial form each time you saw him.

Questions?

ST's insubstantial form is also a plot point for sure, but that is neither here nor there. It is explained in BH that a mortal has to place his rump on the throne for any effect. ST is no longer mortal - he has ascended. That's the more important fact, not his vapourness.

This post has been edited by Skywalker: 02 April 2009 - 11:13 AM

[Abyss]

Skywalker, on Apr 2 2009, 07:12 AM, said:

Also, there is no 'backdoor' path back to mortality for the T'lan Imass. As we see in MOI, they seek dissolution, and release from the Vow that they will eternally hunt the Jaghut - there are few (if any) Jaghut tyrants left, but plenty of Tyrants from other species. ...

Not exactly. leaving aside for the moment the implications of the Refugium's ressurrection effect on undead Imass, Silverfox did release Tool from the Ritual at the end of MoI and restore him to mortality (possibly with Kruppe's aid - he's there but we don't know if he, or possibly Krul via Kruppe, assisted).

Also, the Imass sought dissolution, until Silverfox's plan with the Mhybe's dreams, the Imass memories, the Beast Hold and the K'tchen S'ink created an entirely new warren that somehow serves as an afterlife for them.

- Abyss, sends pseaudo rep vibes to Excellence for 'ShadowRump' and advises Skywalker to report to the Abyssmal Army forum for duty promptly.

[Ectemnius]

As for the speculation about who commanded the Aren massacre...

Laseen or Surly, surely didn't.

If she knew where the First Throne would be she'd plant her Imperial sittingmeats on there immediately.
Wouldn't an army of T'lann Imass suit her purposes for say, taking over Darujhistan or squatting down Sha'ik and the Apocalypse?

That leaves our insubstantial friend Shadowthrone to be the one who gave the command.

[Lister of Smeg]

The way it's explained in MoI is that Surly gave the order not long after Kellanved vanished. At the time, the Imass were confused about what to do, so they obeyed her as they probably had done in the past. So it could easily have been her.

[Jumpy]

Don't really know who gave the order, but I do know one thing:

Barathol Mekhar got SHITTED on because of that order.
And the whole assassinating a Fist thing.

But really, they blame him for letting T'lan Imass IN a city? Baha.

He said it best himself, "As if T'lan Imass needed a door."

[lord of tragedy]

if i was surly, newly empowered empress, why would i use the imas when i could twist the loyalty of those around me, whiskey jack, dujeck, etc, into fighting my enemies and in doing so destroy themselves. surly needed raruku, needed the massacre at aren to fester massive anti malazan sentiment into open rebellion. the main victims of the chain of dogs and pale were the people must loyal to kellanved, wickans and bridgeburners. both wars were designed to weed out enemies while forging bonds amongst those loyal to her.

the first four books are a jaunt through surly's attempts at real politik

This post has been edited by lord of tragedy: 04 April 2009 - 12:45 AM

[Sheve]

As i read it batathol was arrested for attacking a fist, them the city revolted.
Then the tlan imass came.
and we all know they dont use doors

and kallanved had tlan imass when he and dancer took li heng, cant produce the quoteright now but somewhere they say that when "humans saw that the protecter was dead and there was dead gardians on the wall it was all over
the "quote" is not 100% right but the context should be.

kallanved had controle of tlan imass before 7 citys even started.
and somewhere there is a quote that the invasion of 7 citys whould have failed without tlan imass.

!!!being drunk and Swedish really fucks up your typing!!!

This post has been edited by Sheve: 04 April 2009 - 02:57 AM

[D'rek]

You will never manage to resolve the Aren massacre issue, please stop trying.

1. Sorry claims in DG that she remembers Dancer/Cotillion going to argue with Surly because Surly had given the order.
2. Dujek claims in MoI that the massacre happened after K&D were assassinated and that this was the first indication that they were still alive.
3. Onrack states that no one has sat on the Throne since Kellanved.

These three points are inconsolable without ridiculously speculative logic (ie Laseen did it to mess with people's heads and the Logros went with the order because they were used to following her orders since Kel left her in charge and told them she was in charge and they didn't know she tried to kill him), but any of these ridiculous speculative logics are baseless and we can't have any idea which is true...

[Excellence]

It was indeed Surly who gave the order "from" the Pre-Shadow Rumpster in his extended absence, as we know. Rumpie knew nothing of it at the time.

It has also been heavily suggested that it was a deliberate action against the empire's throne... But the series has dozens of vague inferences; until we get answers that's all they are from Erikson.

[D'rek]

Excellence, on Apr 4 2009, 06:43 AM, said:

It was indeed Surly who gave the order "from" the Pre-Shadow Rumpster in his extended absence, as we know. Rumpie knew nothing of it at the time.

It has also been heavily suggested that it was a deliberate action against the empire's throne... But the series has dozens of vague inferences; until we get answers that's all they are from Erikson.

Bull. We don't know that as there are conflicting versions of the events and in every case there is also good motivation for the speaking character to be lying (ie Apsalar wants to keep Fid sane and not mad at Shadow, since she has some alignment to it; Dujek wants to keep WJ loyal to the empress, etc etc). If I say a banana is purple and Joe says a banana is red, you can't declare that the banana is definitely red just because you like Joe better and you prefer a banana to be red. It is still just Joe's word against mine. Until you have further proof or a good reason to know that I was lying (about the banana specifically, doesn't matter if I lie elsetimes), then you shouldn't assume any conclusions about the banana's color...

[Jumpy]

Sheve, on Apr 3 2009, 10:56 PM, said:

As i read it batathol was arrested for attacking a fist, them the city revolted.
Then the tlan imass came.
and we all know they dont use doors

and kallanved had tlan imass when he and dancer took li heng, cant produce the quoteright now but somewhere they say that when "humans saw that the protecter was dead and there was dead gardians on the wall it was all over
the "quote" is not 100% right but the context should be.

kallanved had controle of tlan imass before 7 citys even started.
and somewhere there is a quote that the invasion of 7 citys whould have failed without tlan imass.

!!!being drunk and Swedish really fucks up your typing!!!

Barathol assassinated a Fist, which is why we had Pormqual in Aren during the Chain of Dogs. He was the replacement. As Barathol fled the city, opening wide the gates and hauling ass out of there, Logros Clan appeared and went on a wholesale slaughter.

He describes what happened when L'oric spills the beans about him after healing Cutter and Scillara, and also implies that if L'oric wants some he can catch a gigantic two handed battle axe lodged in his face.

Barathol is awesome.
"This one looks like he could throw Kalam across a room." - Cutter

[Vengeance]

Skywalker, on Apr 2 2009, 05:12 AM, said:

O RLY? We will see...

Excellence, on Apr 2 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

You all got it wrong. Thus, I explain.

Who sits their rump on the First Throne commands the T'lan Imass. They made themselves undead, but gave themselves a backdoor to undo it. They need a human Imass, to de-T'lan themselves. Sounds like a fragrance, D't'an, doesn't it? Mmmm, fragance, as Homer would say. Where was I? Right. The throne allows the Rumpsitter to enforce the Imass to the Rumpsitter's will.

Kellanved rumped himself on it. He commanded the Imass.

But because the throne was so ancient, there was problems. Only the Logros were compelled -- and only from "close" proximity to it. So when Rumpsitter then became Shadow Rump, he lost enough humanity to weaken Logros from its enthorned link.

Thus, they suddenly departed to the Jhag Odan to fight a war, and came back still free from the throne holder.

It is true that they left suddenly and that ST's control over them was weak. If you find quotes for that "proximity" thing, I will virtual rep you. But they left because they detected Jaghut, and not over ST's objections (he didn't care since he didn't want to use them).

Also, there is no 'backdoor' path back to mortality for the T'lan Imass. As we see in MOI, they seek dissolution, and release from the Vow that they will eternally hunt the Jaghut - there are few (if any) Jaghut tyrants left, but plenty of Tyrants from other species. The TI are just tired of fighting now. When they took the vow, they never thought it'd take this long. As a matter of fact, Pran Chole is startled in GoTM when Kruppe tells him 300,000 years will pass before they meet again.

Excellence, on Apr 2 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Shadowthrone knows this. He can't compell them again. He lacks form, and that point is something Bonehunters took effort to show. His insubstantial form each time you saw him.

Questions?

ST's insubstantial form is also a plot point for sure, but that is neither here nor there. It is explained in BH that a mortal has to place his rump on the throne for any effect. ST is no longer mortal - he has ascended. That's the more important fact, not his vapourness.

I am not doing the whole color thing. Here is the quote BH pg 847

Quote

Onrack cut in. 'this you must understand, Cotillion of Shadow. Once, long ago by mortal standards, now, your companion found the First Throne. He occupied it and so gained command over the T'lan Imass. Even then, it was a tenuous grasp, for the power of the First Throne is ancient. Indeed, its power wanes. Shadowthrone was able to awaken Logros T'lan Imass - a lone army, finding itself still bound to the First Throne's remnant power due to little more than mere proximity. He could not command Kron T'lan Imass, nor Bentract, nor Ifayle, nor the others that remained, for they were too distant. When Shadowthrone last sat upon the First Throne, he was mortal, he was bound to no other aspect. He had not ascended. But now, he is impure, and this impurity ever weakens his command. Cotillion, as your companion loses ever more substance, so too does he lose..... veracity.'

Cotillion stared at the broken warrior, then looked over at Monok Ochem and Ibra Gholan. 'And these, then,' he said in a low voice, 'represent...token obedience.'

[Skywalker]

Vengeance, on Apr 4 2009, 11:09 PM, said:

I am not doing the whole color thing. Here is the quote BH pg 847

Quote

Onrack cut in. 'this you must understand, Cotillion of Shadow. Once, long ago by mortal standards, now, your companion found the First Throne. He occupied it and so gained command over the T'lan Imass. Even then, it was a tenuous grasp, for the power of the First Throne is ancient. Indeed, its power wanes. Shadowthrone was able to awaken Logros T'lan Imass - a lone army, finding itself still bound to the First Throne's remnant power due to little more than mere proximity. He could not command Kron T'lan Imass, nor Bentract, nor Ifayle, nor the others that remained, for they were too distant. When Shadowthrone last sat upon the First Throne, he was mortal, he was bound to no other aspect. He had not ascended. But now, he is impure, and this impurity ever weakens his command. Cotillion, as your companion loses ever more substance, so too does he lose..... veracity.'

Cotillion stared at the broken warrior, then looked over at Monok Ochem and Ibra Gholan. 'And these, then,' he said in a low voice, 'represent...token obedience.'

Thankee Venge...

Ha! There you go Malaclypse

[Excellence]

Yep, the info all comes from the First Throne scenes in Bonehunters. Onrack's pov and Cotillion's conversations.

Nothing I said didn't come from the book, you know...

[Ectemnius]

D'rek, on Apr 4 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

You will never manage to resolve the Aren massacre issue, please stop trying.

1. Sorry claims in DG that she remembers Dancer/Cotillion going to argue with Surly because Surly had given the order.
2. Dujek claims in MoI that the massacre happened after K&D were assassinated and that this was the first indication that they were still alive.
3. Onrack states that no one has sat on the Throne since Kellanved.

These three points are inconsolable without ridiculously speculative logic (ie Laseen did it to mess with people's heads and the Logros went with the order because they were used to following her orders since Kel left her in charge and told them she was in charge and they didn't know she tried to kill him), but any of these ridiculous speculative logics are baseless and we can't have any idea which is true...

Thanks for the Onrack quote Vengeance!
As for what is said in MoI and DG according to D'rek, does anyone know where to find those quotes.
I'd really like to re-read those two conversations.
(If you know the quote, please give the chapter as my BH-edition does not even have 847 pages 0_0)

[RangerSG]

Ectemnius, on Apr 8 2009, 04:32 AM, said:

D'rek, on Apr 4 2009, 05:00 AM, said:

You will never manage to resolve the Aren massacre issue, please stop trying.

1. Sorry claims in DG that she remembers Dancer/Cotillion going to argue with Surly because Surly had given the order.
2. Dujek claims in MoI that the massacre happened after K&D were assassinated and that this was the first indication that they were still alive.
3. Onrack states that no one has sat on the Throne since Kellanved.

These three points are inconsolable without ridiculously speculative logic (ie Laseen did it to mess with people's heads and the Logros went with the order because they were used to following her orders since Kel left her in charge and told them she was in charge and they didn't know she tried to kill him), but any of these ridiculous speculative logics are baseless and we can't have any idea which is true...

Thanks for the Onrack quote Vengeance!
As for what is said in MoI and DG according to D'rek, does anyone know where to find those quotes.
I'd really like to re-read those two conversations.
(If you know the quote, please give the chapter as my BH-edition does not even have 847 pages 0_0)

1) Apsalar in DG responds to the allegation that the Emperor ordered the destruction of Aren by saying "No he did not! It was..." and she doesn't say there who it was. It was HoC when she recounts the full memory (as mentioned earlier). So that means this is a point that Dancer is quite firm on. Whatever really happened, the Rope really thinks that it was Surly/Laseen.

2) Dujek and Whiskeyjack's conversation assumes it was the Emperor. But this could simply be what they are told by Surly/Laseen. Dujek would believe her. WJ would believe Dujek. If she deceived Dujek (entirely believable) then their whole line of reasoning is wrong. There's no reason to believe that they know better than Dancer prima facie. Do they even know the true timing of the assassination? I'm not sure, since Surly was calling herself Laseen before the inversion of the command structure.

3) Onrock's quote merely affirms that what control the Emperor had he lost when he became ST. And that ST has kept the throne "negated."

As for why it hasn't mattered since, didn't ST wrap it in a giant illusion? That's why the Tiste Edur leave, because the Throne was destroyed, or so they thought. They'd have reported it as destroyed. And the CG has no physical access to the Throne, so I doubt he can, at present at least, prove the illusionary nature of that claim. Furthermore, even if he could, would he have a reason to doubt it?

[Ectemnius]

Thanx RangerSG.

Apsalar states with the help of Cotillions memory: Surly/Laseen ordered the massacre. Dujek claims that the massacre is ordered by Kellanved/Shadowthrone. He says it is proof that Kellanved/Shadowthrone was still alive after the assassination.

However Onrack makes a very interesting statement:
"When Shadowthrone last sat upon the First Throne, he was mortal, he was bound to no other aspect. He had not ascended."

It does not say that Shadowthrone was the last to sit upon the throne. It does say that he was mortal when he last sat upon the throne.
Reading Night of Knives, Kellanved and Dancer get into the Deadhouse after the assassination. That is where they ascend. And the Ahren massacre happens after their ascension when we follow Dujeks thoughts.
This then would point out that the assumption of Dujek is wrong and Apsalar is right: Laseen is the badass here.

That then leaves the question: why doesn't Laseen use the Imass after the Aren-massacre?

[tiam]

Ectemnius, on Apr 8 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

Thanx RangerSG.

Apsalar states with the help of Cotillions memory: Surly/Laseen ordered the massacre. Dujek claims that the massacre is ordered by Kellanved/Shadowthrone. He says it is proof that Kellanved/Shadowthrone was still alive after the assassination.

However Onrack makes a very interesting statement:
"When Shadowthrone last sat upon the First Throne, he was mortal, he was bound to no other aspect. He had not ascended."

It does not say that Shadowthrone was the last to sit upon the throne. It does say that he was mortal when he last sat upon the throne.
Reading Night of Knives, Kellanved and Dancer get into the Deadhouse after the assassination. That is where they ascend. And the Ahren massacre happens after their ascension when we follow Dujeks thoughts.
This then would point out that the assumption of Dujek is wrong and Apsalar is right: Laseen is the badass here.

That then leaves the question: why doesn't Laseen use the Imass after the Aren-massacre?

Its more of a timeline inconsistency if anything. Did the Aren massacre happen after the 7c conquest. Tehy were used in the conquest as its stated (again sumwhere) that the 7c invasion wud have failed iif not for the Imass. By the time of NOK the 7c war is over. Reason why im bringing this up is if not then Kel cud simply have used the Imass while being alive but when he was on his holiday with dancer while surly was regent. for whatever reason, consolidate the empire or just to fuck around

[D'rek]

Considering the shit Laseen has been facing from all sides with her empire, does it not seem unlikely that she would maintain command over the T'lan Imass and yet only use them the one time for the Aren massacre? She could've taken Darujhistan a decade before the Siege ended with a simple command...