[zwitterion]

What happened with that? It was all anyone could shed blood about for half the series and we haven't heard a word about it since Quick got therapeutically raped by Iccy trying to defend it. Now DoD seems to be all about lizards suns and starving kids and I'm wondering, is the throne still relevant at all?

[HoosierDaddy]

From what I recall, the First Throne (of the Imass) wasn't even that big of a deal anymore. Only the Logros clan felt any attachment to it, whatsoever, and even they weren't completely in its thrall (going missing to kill Jaghut in the Jhag Oasis). I don't know why it was such a big deal, really.

[blackzoid]

It was a bid deal for the Tiste Edur, perhaps not so much for the CG.
Now that the Tiste Edur have withdrawn from Letheras, the First Throne will not be assailbed by them anymore.

[Skywalker]

Aw come on... the First Throne is still pretty important.

Flashback: The First Throne's first (known) mortal occupant was Kellanved. Because he was a distant cousin of the Imass by way of being human (or something like that) he could take the seat. However, distance was a factor in how much control he could exert over the T'lan Imass, and so could only command the Logros who were swirling nearby.

Then he died/ ascended. Shadowthrone still holds the throne but by way of being 'insubstantial' doesn't really exert any control on the armies. ETA: Nor does he want to - he used them once at Aren and was aghast by their power. Also, his and Cot's gambit seems to be to take as many thrones as they can, and then not use that power. Do nothing!

The Crippled God, by way of the Tiste Edur was trying to gather all "thrones" to his service. He made a play for the Throne of Shadow (ST defeated him by way of illusion) and for the First Throne (leading to what zwitterion described so poetically as QB's theraupetic rape).

My guess is the First Throne has a role to play in the "Silverfox and Olar Ethil go to Assail" storyline. It will probably be taken up by ICE, however.

This post has been edited by Skywalker: 01 April 2009 - 10:41 AM

[lord of tragedy]

oh great. ICE will handle it.

[foolio]

Quote

oh great. ICE will handle it.

I hear you


there are many other thrones, right? Are we to assume the crippled god is making a play for them as well?

This post has been edited by foolio: 01 April 2009 - 01:37 PM

[Malaclypse]

my responses in red within your quote.

Skywalker, on Apr 1 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

Aw come on... the First Throne is still pretty important.

Flashback: The First Throne's first (known) mortal occupant was Kellanved. Because he was a distant cousin of the Imass by way of being human (or something like that) he could take the seat. However, distance was a factor in how much control he could exert over the T'lan Imass, and so could only command the Logros who were swirling nearby.

this is wrong. Tool (or somebody, maybe Onrack - I can hunt down the quote if necessary) states outright that the Emperor was modest in his usage of the domination he held over the T'lan Imass. I do not believe that distance was a factor, though 'swirling nearby' is a nice turn of phrase


Then he died/ ascended. Shadowthrone still holds the throne but by way of being 'insubstantial' doesn't really exert any control on the armies. ETA: Nor does he want to - he used them once at Aren and was aghast by their power. Also, his and Cot's gambit seems to be to take as many thrones as they can, and then not use that power. Do nothing!

There is no evidence that Kellanved/Shadowthrone was 'aghast' at anything and I have a hard time imagining him that way, to be perfectly honest. The 'holder' of the throne must be mortal and by ascending, Kellanved became immortal and thus became ineligible - it's that simple. I'm sure if he could still command the T'lan Imass, he would. Regarding the possible plan to occupy as many thrones as possible only to do nothing with them, I like that theory


The Crippled God, by way of the Tiste Edur was trying to gather all "thrones" to his service. He made a play for the Throne of Shadow (ST defeated him by way of illusion) and for the First Throne (leading to what zwitterion described so poetically as QB's theraupetic rape).

My guess is the First Throne has a role to play in the "Silverfox and Olar Ethil go to Assail" storyline. It will probably be taken up by ICE, however.

possibly. Or it could just fade away as a plot-thread. Or SE might deal with it in DoD. Or he could write another novel(la) in the future to deal with Silverfox/Assail, etc. Many possibilites exist

[Sindriss]

The emperor used the T'lan Imass to take Aren, or whatever that city state with the bigass walls was named. I just read about it yesterday in RG before bedtime, was some sort of flashback for throatslitter.

[Theotendo]

I thought it was Heng.

[blackzoid]

For the slaughter of Aren we have two contradictary stories:
1: The Emperor after Ascending to become Shadowthrone, ordered the slaughter when he sat down again briefly on the First Throne. This was mentioned inMoI I think. Quick Ben says that it was the first sign that Kellvened was still out there and was causing trouble for Lassen.
2: Surly orderd the uprising, while Dancer/Kellvened were still unascended. Apsalar remembers Dancer arguing with Surly about it. Mentioned in HOC.

Basically, its a very vague timeline "when?" What I am certain is that Aren was conquered first, then the rebellion happened much later. Aren seems to be the nearest major port to Quan Tali so it would have been the first place conqured on 7 cities.

Also we only have Cutter/Apsalars theory thatShadowthrone's plan is sto sit on all the thrones and do nothing with the power. We have NO proof that that is indeed Shadowthrone's plan. Shadowthrone/Cotillion have not confirmed that.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 01 April 2009 - 02:38 PM

[Abyss]

re the First Throne, Rhulad's Leth/Edur lost two armies trying to take it and failing (for various reasons). Then everything in RG happened and the Edur stopped trying, going back where they came from and probably stepping out from the CG's influence.

So the CG may still have designs on the First Throne but he doesn't have anyone to send after it at the moment, and ST/Cots are guarding it or have demons doing so.

The plot line of the Leth/Edur trying to seize the First and Elder Shadow thrones is done for now. Both still figure in the overal story but it remains to be seen what or how they come back in, if at all.


- Abyss, ...posting this from a laptop on the throne...

[blackzoid]

I'm gonna offer a theory with no proof here:
Maybe it was just the Edur's goal to get the 1st throne and the Throne of Shadow.
Maybe the CG didn't really care about actually getting it because:

1: He just likes to cause trouble for its own sake, like the Joker in The Dark Knight.
2: He was just keeping his enemies distracted by buying time for his "real" armies, the jade statues and perhaps the KCCM to enter the picture.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

No. The Edur wouldn't care for the 1st throne only for the ToS. It's the CG that wanted the 1st Throne so that his T'lann Imass minions(the Unbounf) could sit on it and control the entire race

[blackzoid]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 1 2009, 04:05 PM, said:

No. The Edur wouldn't care for the 1st throne only for the ToS. It's the CG that wanted the 1st Throne so that his T'lann Imass minions(the Unbounf) could sit on it and control the entire race

Hmm, I'm found a problem with both your and my ideas though.

Why did the Edur seem so non-plussed when Shadowthrone tricked them into thinking that the Throne of Shadow on Drift Avali was destroyed. They seemd to shrug their soldiers and then say, "Ok, lets try the 1st throne then!". You'd think that they would have shown more emotion to that being destroyed if that was their goal. It was the seat of power of their ancestral home after all. How could the 1st throne compete on an emotional level to that?

So perhaps it was the CG behind their actions after all.

[Wry]

blackzoid, on Apr 1 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 1 2009, 04:05 PM, said:

No. The Edur wouldn't care for the 1st throne only for the ToS. It's the CG that wanted the 1st Throne so that his T'lann Imass minions(the Unbounf) could sit on it and control the entire race

Hmm, I'm found a problem with both your and my ideas though.

Why did the Edur seem so non-plussed when Shadowthrone tricked them into thinking that the Throne of Shadow on Drift Avali was destroyed. They seemd to shrug their soldiers and then say, "Ok, lets try the 1st throne then!". You'd think that they would have shown more emotion to that being destroyed if that was their goal. It was the seat of power of their ancestral home after all. How could the 1st throne compete on an emotional level to that?

So perhaps it was the CG behind their actions after all.

The impression i got was that it was never the edurs goal to get the thrones... maybe the CGs but not the Edur. They were just there to get champions for Rhulad.
I seem to remember something along the lines of "ok Iccy, the shadow thrones broken so you can't fight this cool swordsman to prove your worth, but there's another place with good fighters we can test you against"

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I don't have RG nearby but I do think that the Edurs did despair and shout before telling Icarium that there was another place where he coud proove his might.

[D'rek]

Bauchelain the Evil, on Apr 1 2009, 10:32 AM, said:

I don't have RG nearby but I do think that the Edurs did despair and shout before telling Icarium that there was another place where he coud proove his might.

Agreed, there was definitely plenty of emotion about the ToS being destroyed. The Edur warlock specifically said that this would get them built-up for the coming messy fight (at the 1st Throne).

The ToS meant a lot to the Edur, but the 1st Throne would not have meant a particular much for them. However, the CG wanted it bad so through Rhulad he would've ordered it taken and the Edur/Letheri were sent at it thatways anyway. The Seven of the Dead Fires, servants of the CG, were instrumental in opening the chaotic path to the 1st Throne for the Edur to use later. However, contrary to BtE's prior statement, it would have had to be a mortal, such as one of the TE, who sat on the 1st Throne once it was taken. The Unbound could not gain anything from sitting on it.

Remember that the power of the 1st Throne was said to have been dissipating. This, combined with Monok Ochem fusing with it at the end of tBH, it may well by now not be powerful enough that a mortal upon it would still be able to control Silverfox and the rest of the T'lan Imass. Either way, the CG doesn't really have many mortals (that we know about) left who could win through the shadow demons ST has defending the Throne now...

[Skywalker]

my responses in blue to your responses in red within my quote (I practice this kinda thing on my work email)

Malaclypse, on Apr 1 2009, 07:24 PM, said:

my responses in red within your quote.

Skywalker, on Apr 1 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

Aw come on... the First Throne is still pretty important.

Flashback: The First Throne's first (known) mortal occupant was Kellanved. Because he was a distant cousin of the Imass by way of being human (or something like that) he could take the seat. However, distance was a factor in how much control he could exert over the T'lan Imass, and so could only command the Logros who were swirling nearby.

this is wrong. Tool (or somebody, maybe Onrack - I can hunt down the quote if necessary) states outright that the Emperor was modest in his usage of the domination he held over the T'lan Imass. I do not believe that distance was a factor, though 'swirling nearby' is a nice turn of phrase

I distinctly remember Fiddler or some other old timer (Heboric? Toc?) speculating in that direction in one of the early books. Don't have a quote, and Google Books stopped showing Malazan previews, so...

Then he died/ ascended. Shadowthrone still holds the throne but by way of being 'insubstantial' doesn't really exert any control on the armies. ETA: Nor does he want to - he used them once at Aren and was aghast by their power. Also, his and Cot's gambit seems to be to take as many thrones as they can, and then not use that power. Do nothing!

There is no evidence that Kellanved/Shadowthrone was 'aghast' at anything and I have a hard time imagining him that way, to be perfectly honest. The 'holder' of the throne must be mortal and by ascending, Kellanved became immortal and thus became ineligible - it's that simple. I'm sure if he could still command the T'lan Imass, he would. Regarding the possible plan to occupy as many thrones as possible only to do nothing with them, I like that theory

Apsalar remembers that Cotillion actually went and berated Surly for having given the order (now I know its confusing who gave the order exactly, but I think it was Surly). He says: "There were no written orders - none found, in any case-' Apsalar: 'I should have killed her there and then...these memories...they are so clear. I was...sent to Aren...to see the slaughter. To find out what happened. I...I argued with Surly. No-one else was in the room. Just Surly and...and me". Now maybe I'm mixing things up a bit - maybe it wasn't ST being aghast, but Cot - I got thrown off by the fact that he was "sent" there. So maybe ST was just, you know... coldly curious.

On the possible plan to occupy etc. isn't actually my theory - it is Cutter's, as he tells Apsalar when they're either on or floating just off Drift Avalii in HoC. I don't have the quote, but I did find an old thread where Apt alludes to the same thing: http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...st&p=139759

The Crippled God, by way of the Tiste Edur was trying to gather all "thrones" to his service. He made a play for the Throne of Shadow (ST defeated him by way of illusion) and for the First Throne (leading to what zwitterion described so poetically as QB's theraupetic rape).

My guess is the First Throne has a role to play in the "Silverfox and Olar Ethil go to Assail" storyline. It will probably be taken up by ICE, however.

possibly. Or it could just fade away as a plot-thread. Or SE might deal with it in DoD. Or he could write another novel(la) in the future to deal with Silverfox/Assail, etc. Many possibilites exist

This smacks of smug pre-science I say... I demand you handover your ARC to me NOW!!!

or you know, maybe not...

[Hetan]

Heh. too many colours now, so I've tried to clean it up a bit - my responses in the normal colour

edit: accidentally posted as Hetan

Skywalker, on Apr 2 2009, 06:49 AM, said:

my responses in blue to your responses in red within my quote (I practice this kinda thing on my work email)
<snip>

I distinctly remember Fiddler or some other old timer (Heboric? Toc?) speculating in that direction in one of the early books. Don't have a quote, and Google Books stopped showing Malazan previews, so...

OK, well I don't remember anything like that but you may be right. If it does exist, by all means post it. Without evidence, it's just a matter of opinion so I'll stick with mine


Apsalar remembers that Cotillion actually went and berated Surly for having given the order (now I know its confusing who gave the order exactly, but I think it was Surly). He says: "There were no written orders - none found, in any case-' Apsalar: 'I should have killed her there and then...these memories...they are so clear. I was...sent to Aren...to see the slaughter. To find out what happened. I...I argued with Surly. No-one else was in the room. Just Surly and...and me". Now maybe I'm mixing things up a bit - maybe it wasn't ST being aghast, but Cot - I got thrown off by the fact that he was "sent" there. So maybe ST was just, you know... coldly curious.

On the possible plan to occupy etc. isn't actually my theory - it is Cutter's, as he tells Apsalar when they're either on or floating just off Drift Avalii in HoC. I don't have the quote, but I did find an old thread where Apt alludes to the same thing: http://www.malazanempire.com/IPBforum/inde...st&p=139759

The 'who ordered the Aren massacre?' question has been discussed on and off for years, with pretty good evidence for both Surly and Kellanved. Your quote is pretty strong evidence for it being Surly, but I have another, from Onrack in HoC:

Quote

‘The Emperor’s exploitation of our abilities was . . . modest.
Surprisingly constrained. He was then assassinated. The new Empress
does not command us.’

This convinces me that Surly never held the power of the throne and thus could not have given the order so it must have been Kellanved, unless we imagine that the T'lan Imass would obey an order to massacre civilians from an underling - I just don't see it myself. The debate rages on I suppose, but Kellanved was mad enough to do something like that and not tell Dancer, or maybe Apsalar had her memories mixed up *shrugs*

I know that Cutter voiced the theory about S&C occupying the thrones and doing nothing with them. I still like it

‘

Quote

Aye, it’s an Azath tactic, isn’t it? Negation serves to disarm. Given
the chance, he’d probably plant himself in every throne in sight, then,
with all the power accrued to him, he would do nothing with it.
Nothing at all.’

<snip>

Quote

My guess is the First Throne has a role to play in the "Silverfox and Olar Ethil go to Assail" storyline. It will probably be taken up by ICE, however.

possibly. Or it could just fade away as a plot-thread. Or SE might deal with it in DoD. Or he could write another novel(la) in the future to deal with Silverfox/Assail, etc. Many possibilites exist

This smacks of smug pre-science I say... I demand you handover your ARC to me NOW!!!

or you know, maybe not...

there is no special knowledge here, just normal everyday speculation. Also, I've never had an ARC

[Skywalker]

More cleaning up and a response in more blue...

Hetan, on Apr 2 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Heh. too many colours now, so I've tried to clean it up a bit - my responses in the normal colour

edit: accidentally posted as Hetan

Skywalker, on Apr 2 2009, 06:49 AM, said:

my responses in blue to your responses in red within my quote (I practice this kinda thing on my work email)
<snip>

I distinctly remember Fiddler or some other old timer (Heboric? Toc?) speculating in that direction in one of the early books. Don't have a quote, and Google Books stopped showing Malazan previews, so...

OK, well I don't remember anything like that but you may be right. If it does exist, by all means post it. Without evidence, it's just a matter of opinion so I'll stick with mine

Gaah... OK, fair enough. I will go quote hunting.

The 'who ordered the Aren massacre?' question has been discussed on and off for years, with pretty good evidence for both Surly and Kellanved. Your quote is pretty strong evidence for it being Surly, but I have another, from Onrack in HoC:

Quote

‘The Emperor’s exploitation of our abilities was . . . modest.
Surprisingly constrained. He was then assassinated. The new Empress
does not command us.’

This convinces me that Surly never held the power of the throne and thus could not have given the order so it must have been Kellanved, unless we imagine that the T'lan Imass would obey an order to massacre civilians from an underling - I just don't see it myself. The debate rages on I suppose, but Kellanved was mad enough to do something like that and not tell Dancer, or maybe Apsalar had her memories mixed up *shrugs*

Unless ST had some sort of a telepathic link with his T'lan Imass army (such a link is not in evidence, or he'd still use it to at least chit chat with Monok Ochem and others defending the first throne), he'd have to put command and control in the field. Preferably with someone he at least sort of trusts... as member of the "family", Surly qualifies.

OR If he used his funky bone-telephone network (ref: MOI, WJ and Dujek) to talk to the T'lan, assuming their sensitivities about bones being used weren't too much of a hindrance (an under-used plot device IMHO, maybe Surly could fake a call, or forge an "in person" order delivery through illusion or something. Not entirely outside the realm of possibility, given she had claw mages on call.

I know that Cutter voiced the theory about S&C occupying the thrones and doing nothing with them. I still like it

‘

Quote

Aye, it’s an Azath tactic, isn’t it? Negation serves to disarm. Given
the chance, he’d probably plant himself in every throne in sight, then,
with all the power accrued to him, he would do nothing with it.
Nothing at all.’

Bravo! Thanks for the quote.

<snip>

Quote

My guess is the First Throne has a role to play in the "Silverfox and Olar Ethil go to Assail" storyline. It will probably be taken up by ICE, however.

possibly. Or it could just fade away as a plot-thread. Or SE might deal with it in DoD. Or he could write another novel(la) in the future to deal with Silverfox/Assail, etc. Many possibilites exist

This smacks of smug pre-science I say... I demand you handover your ARC to me NOW!!!

or you know, maybe not...

there is no special knowledge here, just normal everyday speculation. Also, I've never had an ARC

Then sir, I demand you handover your brainz for immediate analysis, so your guilt or lack thereof can be determined decisively. (elsewise, your email username/ password, any digital content received from SE, etc will suffice)


Wait...


does this mean I'm in the Abyssmal Army now?

Skywalker - drafted!