[Ectemnius]

Hmz, I had the idea that there was a occupying force of Malazans in Aren at the time of the slaughter. What we know of Barathol is that he killed the then legitimate Fist and then opened the gates. He walked out yet the city was rising up in rebellion (I'm sure that's mentioned somewhere). That's when the Imass stopped by for a cup o' coffee...

I have never seen Laseen 'fuck around' anytime, anywhere. Its more likely they were used to stop the uprise in the city.

If we believe Dujek in the quote from Memories of Ice then the massacre happened after the assassination. As you said yourself, in the Night of Knives novel, Seven Cities has been conquered already and that day, the assassination and ascension of the two meddling magikers happens.

So, am I making any sense at all here?

[Vengeance]

Ectemnius, on Apr 8 2009, 01:28 PM, said:

Hmz, I had the idea that there was a occupying force of Malazans in Aren at the time of the slaughter. What we know of Barathol is that he killed the then legitimate Fist and then opened the gates. He walked out yet the city was rising up in rebellion (I'm sure that's mentioned somewhere). That's when the Imass stopped by for a cup o' coffee...

I have never seen Laseen 'fuck around' anytime, anywhere. Its more likely they were used to stop the uprise in the city.

If we believe Dujek in the quote from Memories of Ice then the massacre happened after the assassination. As you said yourself, in the Night of Knives novel, Seven Cities has been conquered already and that day, the assassination and ascension of the two meddling magikers happens.

So, am I making any sense at all here?

Here is my thought. Once kal sat on the throne he could then command the Imass. But did he have to be sitting on the throne to issue commands. I would think not. It would be a little irritating in the middle of battle to run back to the throne room and jump on the throne. No I think that once he sat on it he gain command of who ever was around.

If that is true then this quote

Quote

But now, he is impure, and this impurity ever weakens his command. Cotillion, as your companion loses ever more substance, so too does he lose..... veracity.'

seems to imply that the longer he is Shadowthrone the less command he has over the Imass. I would think that if he had just became Shadowthrone then he would have still had most of his form and therefore could fully command the Imass that were around. Therefore Shadowthrone in all likely hood released the Imass on Aren. Why he did so would be up for grabs. But the theory that Laseen would have any command over the Imass is I think not really likely. Why would Shadowthrone allow anyone other then perhaps Dancer to know the location of the 1st throne. If laseen had been able to command then during the Aren uprising then she would have used them later on after they came back from their jahgut hunt.

The more relevant question that we should be asking is will the bonecasters (forgot his name) sacrifice during the battle with Icarium where the bonecaster through himself onto the 1st throne and melted into it. When the Cotillion was talking to the bonecaster he asked if there was some way for the 1st throne's power to revived. The bonecaster went off to talk about it in private. So my question is did the bonecasters sacrifice actually increase the power of the throne? If so obviously it will not be ST who uses the stronger throne but perhaps Onrack or his son or even Silverfox.

As for Apsalars memories it might be possible that ST told Cotillion that he didn't order the attack but that laseen did. I think that is much more likely then Laseen ordering the Imass to act then never using them again.

[Ectemnius]

@ Vengeance

You swayed me! What use would it be to sit ones behind on the throne every time when in the midst of battle? Shadowthrone doesn't need to be seated upon the Throne of Shadow to actually remain in control of Meanas or stay the King of High House Shadow. The same goes for every other God and Ascendant.

As for the bonecaster:

Quote

... Trull saw with growing horror, Monok Ochem had melted. Fused, destroyed and twisted as its body was melted into the First Throne. Barely half of the bonecaster's face was visible, one eye surrounded by its cracked, collapsed socket.

The Bonehunters, near the end of chapter twenty-four.

That means that in the end, Dujek is right and Apsalar isn't. As to the reason for that, we can only guess...

This post has been edited by Ectemnius: 08 April 2009 - 08:01 PM

[Vengeance]

Ectemnius, on Apr 8 2009, 02:47 PM, said:

@ Vengeance

You swayed me! What use would it be to sit ones behind on the throne every time when in the midst of battle? Shadowthrone doesn't need to be seated upon the Throne of Shadow to actually remain in control of Meanas or stay the King of High House Shadow. The same goes for every other God and Ascendant.

As for the bonecaster:

Quote

... Trull saw with growing horror, Monok Ochem had melted. Fused, destroyed and twisted as its body was melted into the First Throne. Barely half of the bonecaster's face was visible, one eye surrounded by its cracked, collapsed socket.

The Bonehunters, near the end of chapter twenty-four.

That means that in the end, Dujek is right and Apsalar isn't. As to the reason for that, we can only guess...

Thank you that was the scene that I was thinking of. Does anyone else wonder if with the Monok Ochem being absorbed (at least it sounded like he was being absorded) into the First throne that the thrones power will be revived. If it is would then the person who sat on the renewed throne be able to command Silverfox and all of the Imass or just dead Imass and not Silverfox. Of course this just might be one of those things that Ice will deal with or not be dealt with at all.

[tiam]

i think it must ahve or why mention it. I mean sum1 asks can it be restored then something quite peculiar happens. A massively powerful bonecaster is absorbed into it. Must have either re instated it to its former glory or more likely give throne holder command over any in he area or possibly still just the logros

[RangerSG]

I don't think Apsalar has to be wrong. I'm not convinced that the T'lan Imass wouldn't have followed an order they got from Laseen thinking it was from the Emperor. Especially if she knew protocols or rituals involved. No, I don't think ST had to sit on the throne for every order either. Sitting on the throne was the binding ritual in the first place.

But once the Imass were aware of ST's "impurity," the link was broken. I think cognizance in a binding ritual would matter. As for NoK...*sighs* do we have to try to reconcile ICE to SE's timeline? I wish he'd just write his own material, in this world, sure. But the contradictory timelines and the changes in characters really makes for some slogging. That said, I think cognizance of ST's ascension still matters, and since it was until Aren that anyone knew Kel and Dancer were back in any way (and longer yet before the ST/Rope link was known) then there's still not a completely irreconcilable issue. Even in GotM, as I recall, Tool is dispatched by orders. So it's not clear that even there the link is severed. And you can't simply conquer everything at will. The Malazan system of pacification takes time to implement. It takes time to bring in the bureaucracy, the judges, the merchants and to remove the old nobility. And the Malazan (Kel and Laseen both) believe in being thorough in the appropriation of power before moving to another objective.

[Ectemnius]

Vengeance, on Apr 8 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

Does anyone else wonder if with the Monok Ochem being absorbed (at least it sounded like he was being absorded) into the First throne that the thrones power will be revived. If it is would then the person who sat on the renewed throne be able to command Silverfox and all of the Imass or just dead Imass and not Silverfox. Of course this just might be one of those things that Ice will deal with or not be dealt with at all.

Silverfox is the first living and loyal bonecaster in 300.000 years. (Kilava...) The Imass obey Silverfox. Certainly at the second gathering this is shown to be the case. Bonecasters, Clanleaders and T'lan Ay obey her every command. It is reveled, then and there that she has the power to break the vow. She releases the Ay from the ritual. Yet the Imass remain bound and are ordered to travel to Assail to free the remaining army from the human tyrants there. (Crimson Guard against T'lann Imass, they have to write that down somewhere!)

RangerSG, on Apr 9 2009, 04:42 AM, said:

I don't think Apsalar has to be wrong. I'm not convinced that the T'lan Imass wouldn't have followed an order they got from Laseen thinking it was from the Emperor. Especially if she knew protocols or rituals involved. No, I don't think ST had to sit on the throne for every order either. Sitting on the throne was the binding ritual in the first place.

But once the Imass were aware of ST's "impurity," the link was broken.

Even in GotM, as I recall, Tool is dispatched by orders. So it's not clear that even there the link is severed.

Shadowthrone is the current master of the First Throne. He only commands the armies of Logros T'lann Imass due to mere proximity (quote below).
If Laseen were to command she would have to wrest the throne from Shadowthrone, sit on the throne and then give the command. Yet she did not do that.
Onrack says in the quote from below also: ever weakens his command. Shadowthrone still commands, yet the Imass have more and more power to act as they choose. When finding the Jaghut in the Odhan they marched off after their eternal enemy rather then follow the command of their insubstantial master.
This does not exclude any action on Laseens part. She could have appealed to the Imass armies to slaughter the rebelling citizens of Aren. Would Logros want to intervene in empire affairs on account of a rival of the usurper of the first throne?

I assumed the command for Onos T'oolan to accompany adjunct Lorn was given by Logros. They are trying to free a Jaghut tyrant and Tool is the First Sword. They aim for the tyrant to take on the Son of Darkness. That would mean the annihilation of one of their eternal enemies (the Tyrant). Tool was there to direct surcomstances in this direction. Tool talks about his being clanless playing a major part in the decision. I could look up the quote(s) in GoTM if necessary...

Quote

Onrack cut in. 'this you must understand, Cotillion of Shadow. Once, long ago by mortal standards, now, your companion found the First Throne. He occupied it and so gained command over the T'lan Imass. Even then, it was a tenuous grasp, for the power of the First Throne is ancient. Indeed, its power wanes. Shadowthrone was able to awaken Logros T'lan Imass - a lone army, finding itself still bound to the First Throne's remnant power due to little more than mere proximity. He could not command Kron T'lan Imass, nor Bentract, nor Ifayle, nor the others that remained, for they were too distant. When Shadowthrone last sat upon the First Throne, he was mortal, he was bound to no other aspect. He had not ascended. But now, he is impure, and this impurity ever weakens his command. Cotillion, as your companion loses ever more substance, so too does he lose..... veracity.'

This post has been edited by Ectemnius: 09 April 2009 - 12:05 PM

[RangerSG]

Ectemnius, on Apr 9 2009, 07:03 AM, said:

Vengeance, on Apr 8 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

Does anyone else wonder if with the Monok Ochem being absorbed (at least it sounded like he was being absorded) into the First throne that the thrones power will be revived. If it is would then the person who sat on the renewed throne be able to command Silverfox and all of the Imass or just dead Imass and not Silverfox. Of course this just might be one of those things that Ice will deal with or not be dealt with at all.

Silverfox is the first living and loyal bonecaster in 300.000 years. (Kilava...) The Imass obey Silverfox. Certainly at the second gathering this is shown to be the case. Bonecasters, Clanleaders and T'lan Ay obey her every command. It is reveled, then and there that she has the power to break the vow. She releases the Ay from the ritual. Yet the Imass remain bound and are ordered to travel to Assail to free the remaining army from the human tyrants there. (Crimson Guard against T'lann Imass, they have to write that down somewhere!)

RangerSG, on Apr 9 2009, 04:42 AM, said:

I don't think Apsalar has to be wrong. I'm not convinced that the T'lan Imass wouldn't have followed an order they got from Laseen thinking it was from the Emperor. Especially if she knew protocols or rituals involved. No, I don't think ST had to sit on the throne for every order either. Sitting on the throne was the binding ritual in the first place.

But once the Imass were aware of ST's "impurity," the link was broken.

Even in GotM, as I recall, Tool is dispatched by orders. So it's not clear that even there the link is severed.

Shadowthrone is the current master of the First Throne. He only commands the armies of Logros T'lann Imass due to mere proximity (quote below).
If Laseen were to command she would have to wrest the throne from Shadowthrone, sit on the throne and then give the command. Yet she did not do that.
Onrack says in the quote from below also: ever weakens his command. Shadowthrone still commands, yet the Imass have more and more power to act as they choose. When finding the Jaghut in the Odhan they marched off after their eternal enemy rather then follow the command of their insubstantial master.
This does not exclude any action on Laseens part. She could have appealed to the Imass armies to slaughter the rebelling citizens of Aren. Would Logros want to intervene in empire affairs on account of a rival of the usurper of the first throne?

I assumed the command for Onos T'oolan to accompany adjunct Lorn was given by Logros. They are trying to free a Jaghut tyrant and Tool is the First Sword. They aim for the tyrant to take on the Son of Darkness. That would mean the annihilation of one of their eternal enemies (the Tyrant). Tool was there to direct surcomstances in this direction. Tool talks about his being clanless playing a major part in the decision. I could look up the quote(s) in GoTM if necessary...

Quote

Onrack cut in. 'this you must understand, Cotillion of Shadow. Once, long ago by mortal standards, now, your companion found the First Throne. He occupied it and so gained command over the T'lan Imass. Even then, it was a tenuous grasp, for the power of the First Throne is ancient. Indeed, its power wanes. Shadowthrone was able to awaken Logros T'lan Imass - a lone army, finding itself still bound to the First Throne's remnant power due to little more than mere proximity. He could not command Kron T'lan Imass, nor Bentract, nor Ifayle, nor the others that remained, for they were too distant. When Shadowthrone last sat upon the First Throne, he was mortal, he was bound to no other aspect. He had not ascended. But now, he is impure, and this impurity ever weakens his command. Cotillion, as your companion loses ever more substance, so too does he lose..... veracity.'

Ect,

I'm well aware ST was the last person that claimed the first throne. Nothing in my statement indicates otherwise. The command to Tool was given by Logross, but why was Laseen able to convince them? Only because, IMHO, the knowledge that the Emperor was ST was not common yet. The assumption of mortals was he was dead. But death would've severed that link. The T'lan Imass could tell the link was still there, but not why. With the lack of clear knowledge, they continued to act on what they had. Especially since Laseen was not (generally) making use of the Imass anymore than Kel had, so it was almost always a non-issue.

Once it became common knowledge amongst those of power who ST was, the link was broken, as Kel's obvious link to shadow removes the corporeal link necessary for command. But knowledge of the truth was necessary before it became truth.

This post has been edited by RangerSG: 10 April 2009 - 05:42 AM

[tiam]

i think the Tlan imass would have known tbh. They know the changing shifts in the pantheon and front up gods. It seems unlikely they were confused especially when they had personal contact with the emperor

[Ectemnius]

The purpose of my last post was meant to point out that Laseen couldn't possibly have commanded any T'lann Imass. Rereading it now, all I did was equivocate...

Here my retry at explaining my theory:

Laseen couldn't possibly have commanded any T'lann Imass because Shadowthrone was the last one to sit upon the throne, thus making it his. In the quote below Onrack says that his command ever weakens. The command weakens because of Shadowthrones aspect and the waning power of the throne itself. Yet! Shadowthrone still has command and ever did, so Laseen never could have given any command.

Quote

Onrack cut in. 'this you must understand, Cotillion of Shadow. Once, long ago by mortal standards, now, your companion found the First Throne. He occupied it and so gained command over the T'lan Imass. Even then, it was a tenuous grasp, for the power of the First Throne is ancient. Indeed, its power wanes. Shadowthrone was able to awaken Logros T'lan Imass - a lone army, finding itself still bound to the First Throne's remnant power due to little more than mere proximity. He could not command Kron T'lan Imass, nor Bentract, nor Ifayle, nor the others that remained, for they were too distant. When Shadowthrone last sat upon the First Throne, he was mortal, he was bound to no other aspect. He had not ascended. But now, he is impure, and this impurity ever weakens his command. Cotillion, as your companion loses ever more substance, so too does he lose..... veracity.'

[tiam]

Shes quite resourceful. I mean shud we go off Dujek who wasnt there or Apsalar who remember being there and arguing? I really think Apsalars in the right as her memories are quite accurate. Laseen simply cud have sed it was orders from Kellenved. I know it seems to simple. TBH this is similar to the coflicting sources about Nok on the first family and other sources

[D'rek]

RangerSG, on Apr 10 2009, 12:41 AM, said:

Ect,

I'm well aware ST was the last person that claimed the first throne. Nothing in my statement indicates otherwise. The command to Tool was given by Logross, but why was Laseen able to convince them? Only because, IMHO, the knowledge that the Emperor was ST was not common yet. The assumption of mortals was he was dead. But death would've severed that link. The T'lan Imass could tell the link was still there, but not why. With the lack of clear knowledge, they continued to act on what they had. Especially since Laseen was not (generally) making use of the Imass anymore than Kel had, so it was almost always a non-issue.

Once it became common knowledge amongst those of power who ST was, the link was broken, as Kel's obvious link to shadow removes the corporeal link necessary for command. But knowledge of the truth was necessary before it became truth.

First of all, it's not a matter of whether the Logros knew Kel was ST or not. As soon as he did they probably knew, but his power over them diminished gradually so whether they knew or not, he could probably still command them for a short time after his ascension.

But perhaps it is the inverse of the case you're presenting. When Kel left the empire with Dancer, he officially left Surly in charge, officially titling her Imperial Regent and all that. That may also have included a standing order to the T'lan Imass to follow her orders. So they keep following her order, knowing that she is doing so with the authority of the person upon the 1st Throne. So then the NoK happens, but it's not like the T'lan Imass were in Malaz City. They could tell that Kel had ascended and taken the Shadow throne, but they don't know of Surly's attempted assassination (and neither do most people for that matter, yet). If the Aren massacre was only a few days after, ST might not have bothered to countermand the Logros' order yet, so they followed the order from Surly thinking she still had the confidence of Kel.

Then Cotillion goes and argued with Surly about being a bum, and the Logros find out about the recent goings-ons and they enter into what Tool calls "confusing times". The detection of nomadic Jhag enclaves, and Aramala, in the Jhag Odhan is a useful distraction and they head off into there, leaving neither ST nor Laseen able to command them.

By the time they return, the ST's 1st-throne-controlling power has waned and they know Laseen isn't on ST's side anymore so they follow neither Logros does whatever he wants, which for some arcane reason included sending Onos T'oolan with Lorn to free Raest. Laseen of course didn't tell anyone she didn't command the T'lan Imass anymore, such a revelation would spark uprising all over from conquered regions no longer fearing the imminent arrival of the T'lan Imass to quash their pathetic rebellions. Alternatively, it becomes widely accepted that the T'lan Imass were Kel's tool and Laseen doesn't have them.

So, any pokable holes in this theory?

[Ectemnius]

I have a desireable answer now, to this question.

Kellanved ascended and left Laseen in command. Although he did not give up the First Throne, Kellanved was not able to command the Imass to do anything. Laseen was able, due to somethimng, to command the Imass once. She ordered them to slay some rebelling citizens in Then Logross had enough of those mortals and their squabbeling and so decided to whack some Jaghut in the Odhan dessert instead.

That leaves just the question what The First Throne is capable of, now that a bonecaster has fused with it. Kellanved still 'has' the first throne. He defended it with 'his' Children, Aptorian Demons, some Imass and Quick Ben. Although Silverfox seems to be in Command of the undead armies in Memories of Ice.