[Jord]

A plausible solution could be that there are actually multiple systems of mask-symbols, e.g. the elite-elite have red stripes (so to speak), the Agati blue stripes, the Initiates yellow stripes, and so on. That none of the characters can really identify the differences or offer further clarification is no surprise, they know as little of the Seguleh as we do.

Or has this option already been falsified?

[D'rek]

Jord, on Aug 21 2009, 05:20 AM, said:

A plausible solution could be that there are actually multiple systems of mask-symbols, e.g. the elite-elite have red stripes (so to speak), the Agati blue stripes, the Initiates yellow stripes, and so on. That none of the characters can really identify the differences or offer further clarification is no surprise, they know as little of the Seguleh as we do.

Or has this option already been falsified?

There are different systems, ie the initiates have complex patterns instead of just slashes, but so far there is no evidence of two different systems using indivudal rankings, so anyone referred to individually as "The #th" we have to assume are in the same niche as the others with similar titling. The Agati at least includes the top guys like the 14th, the 20th, etc., and certainly many more beyond that (I doubt there is someone with 999 slashes on his mask...). If the Agati are the only ones supposed to leave the Seguleh island, than Initiate-level would be (or able to be) part of the Agati as well (Senu and Thurule).

[Vaddon Ra]

Anomander, on 23 March 2009 - 01:00 AM, said:

I really can't figure how powerful the seguleh are as there seem to be a whole bunch of inconsistencies. So, Karsa owns the 17th(not sure exactly but around that rank) without putting in any effort whatsoever. Iron Bars needs everything to just get by against a low ranking seguleh, being an avowed, we can assume his days at sea shouldn't have effected his abilities to much. Iron Bars is said to be able to compete with Skinner. Skinner holds his own against Dassem. Soooooooo... Karsa owns Dassem? I have no problem with this because I believe Karsa could destroy anyone but I don't think that's how it would work out.

no thats not exactly right...she wasn't low...she was the lowest of the group with Oru being in the top 20...which means out of an entire country of people he was at least 20th which means he was Hard as Bull Bollocks...Iron bars didn't expect Leal to be so fast and so when he got over his shock he beat her quite well...plus being an avowed means your hard to actually kill...not that you are incredible with a sword but Iron bars is the shit...but then...I think ICE and SE have a special Seguleh shaped heart (WTF?) so hey




anyway Karsa and the 12th were equal with swords...he only beat her easy because he was so friggin huge...in terms of just speed they were pretty even it was his stamp that got him through...and SE has said before that he views Karsa , or at least writes to try and put this across, as a force of nature...elemental and bestial as well as other things so it wasn't that she was easy...she most certainly was not...its just that in Malaz world...Karsa is one of SE's chief little favourites and so is written to be like...the SHIIIIIIT!

TTH spoilers below:

Spoiler

oh and no no no Dassem would beat Karsa as noted at the end of TTH when Karsa says....

Samar: 'Woah! Karsa you should get in and stop this fo shizzle...that black dude with silver hair is going to ROFLPWN Traveller'
Karsa: 'Shut up wenchling, Traveller is WTFPWN with a sword and would spank me sideways...I'd have him in an arm wrestle you bet...like...through that building and into the stupid ox point of view...but swords...Holy mcfudgesickle...he's like...Shabang'


I abbreviated a bit

anyway


dassem...is like the 4th best swordsman in malaza

Anomander
Seguleh 1st
seguleh 3rd
Dassem

anyway (personal oppinion hehe)

He would kill Karsa, and he destroyed skinner...skinner held his ground...BUT! in ROTCG when Skinner is more powerful...he gets beat by Dassem...the only reason he doesn't die early is because of his Goddess divined super armour...which sadly, is not explained yet....

I dont think its that inconsistent....Skinner has uber powers (cheat) Iron bars is hard...(but was shocked by the seguleh)
Dassem would rape them all...Karsa would too...But dassem is just that bit faster

woot

Mod edited for spoilers. Don't post information from a book later than that of the forum you're in.

To use spoiler tags:

 [spoiler] Spoiler information here [/spoiler] 

-Grief.

[koryk]

I must presume, from all the various occurrences of Seguleh in the books, that the ordering mechanism within their society is not simply a case of how good you are, but also, as with all other codes, dependent on who you know in the leadership, internal political manouvring, etc. It is also a martial art rather than true fighting. Their reputation really has taken a bettering recently. We see too many high (meaning low) numbered Seguleh getting their arses felt. No wonder they live on a little island and have never really established themselves militarily, as have others such as the Malazans themselves, the Letherii, any Tiste you care to mention, Seven Cities tribes, etc. In fact, the Seguleh are a niche market, only famous because of their rarity. I reckon any half-decent pre-Ascendant swordsperson could take on First Seguleh easy peasy.

[tiam]

Vaddon Ra loves these necroes

Seguleh inconsistency that has bothered me is levels of strength. Say what you will about Seguleh swordsmanship and parrying but this has bothered me since ROTCG. In MOI Gruntle, who is always described a brick shithouse gets both hos wrists broken by a swipe from a Kellhunter that hes trying to parry. Harllos two handed broadsword is broken from the force. Tool exchanges blows with these but Tool can also rip the antlers of deer with no effort.

In ROTCG Iron Bars notice the Seguleh are surgeons, lean muscle for speed but no real power behind there thrusts leading to his close victory over a lower than 20th Seguleh. How the hell do Senu and Thurule exchange blows with KCCM? Three against one when their speed is used effectively but theyre actually exchanging blows by the keep. Also how can Mok exchange blows with Tool who is also 10 times as strong as IB. I can see him exchanging blows with Senu and Thurule as he was holding back. As Mock is the Third this isnt as bad as the other two exchanging blows with the Kell Hunters but is still odd given the in depth description of Seguleh fightin styles.

Hardly a big deal though

EDIT- Koryk- Im unsur about that. The Seguleh First is in the same breath as Rake and Co. Imunsure how much political maneuvring can take place in a martial society. Also mild SW spoiler below

Spoiler

Len a veteran marine notes that if the Malazans invaded Seguleh Island they could take it as the Seguleh are warriors not an army

Theyve never established themsleves militarily because of things mentioned in later books.

This post has been edited by tiam: 23 November 2011 - 09:19 PM

[D'rek]

tiam, on 23 November 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

Seguleh inconsistency that has bothered me is levels of strength. Say what you will about Seguleh swordsmanship and parrying but this has bothered me since ROTCG. In MOI Gruntle, who is always described a brick shithouse gets both hos wrists broken by a swipe from a Kellhunter that hes trying to parry. Harllos two handed broadsword is broken from the force. Tool exchanges blows with these but Tool can also rip the antlers of deer with no effort.

In ROTCG Iron Bars notice the Seguleh are surgeons, lean muscle for speed but no real power behind there thrusts leading to his close victory over a lower than 20th Seguleh. How the hell do Senu and Thurule exchange blows with KCCM? Three against one when their speed is used effectively but theyre actually exchanging blows by the keep. Also how can Mok exchange blows with Tool who is also 10 times as strong as IB. I can see him exchanging blows with Senu and Thurule as he was holding back. As Mock is the Third this isnt as bad as the other two exchanging blows with the Kell Hunters but is still odd given the in depth description of Seguleh fightin styles.

Assuming that all Seguleh are "lean muscle for speed but no real power behind there thrusts" because the one Iron Bars fought was like that is like assuming all moranth munitions are as harmless because the harbour guard in RotCG said a smoker was harmless. And then a cusser lands on you.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 23 November 2011 - 09:56 PM

[tiam]

D, on 23 November 2011 - 09:55 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 November 2011 - 09:13 PM, said:

Seguleh inconsistency that has bothered me is levels of strength. Say what you will about Seguleh swordsmanship and parrying but this has bothered me since ROTCG. In MOI Gruntle, who is always described a brick shithouse gets both hos wrists broken by a swipe from a Kellhunter that hes trying to parry. Harllos two handed broadsword is broken from the force. Tool exchanges blows with these but Tool can also rip the antlers of deer with no effort.

In ROTCG Iron Bars notice the Seguleh are surgeons, lean muscle for speed but no real power behind there thrusts leading to his close victory over a lower than 20th Seguleh. How the hell do Senu and Thurule exchange blows with KCCM? Three against one when their speed is used effectively but theyre actually exchanging blows by the keep. Also how can Mok exchange blows with Tool who is also 10 times as strong as IB. I can see him exchanging blows with Senu and Thurule as he was holding back. As Mock is the Third this isnt as bad as the other two exchanging blows with the Kell Hunters but is still odd given the in depth description of Seguleh fightin styles.

Assuming that all Seguleh are "lean muscle for speed but no real power behind there thrusts" because the one Iron Bars fought was like that is like assuming all moranth munitions are as harmless because the harbour guard in RotCG said a smoker was harmless. And then a cusser lands on you.

All the Seguleh weve seen (proper Seguleh not outcast Seguleh like Rell) are described a whip lean rather than huge guys. And even if they were huge guys, like Gruntle, im saying it wouldnt matter because even Gruntle cant block their inhuman strength

[Vaddon Ra]

Just a thought...and in no way wishing to imply sexism...but perhaps leal being a woman wasn't going to be as strong as the male seguleh (particularly the higher orders)
Although I know both SE and ICE write women as utterly equal to men...something which is still stupidly rare even in fantasy...so I may be wrong...but that is an interesting point...Perhaps it is simply because They dont collaborate on utterly EVERYTHING? or maybe its simply because the two books were written at very different times. In MOI Mok and Tool are pretty much on the same level with Mok being that bit faster which makes him superior...Perhaps Gruntle only begins to gain his imba strength as time goes on? When he first meets the Kell Hunters he's reluctant and grouchy (bit like most of the books actually) and hasn't recieved his torcs yet...as time goes on he gets the torcs from .. picker? or blend? whichever, and his skin turns and his thoughts get more brutal and his desires get harsher and more bloody...so perhaps at the start he is hard by human standards but not THAT hard...although your point about the lower ranked seguleh is noted...maybe the seg do have some super natural bone prowess or something...who knows..

ah...But Karsa broke the 12th's arms didn't he?

Ah well

Inconsistencies...dont ruin the books though eh

[tiam]

Vaddon Ra, on 25 November 2011 - 10:46 AM, said:

Just a thought...and in no way wishing to imply sexism...but perhaps leal being a woman wasn't going to be as strong as the male seguleh (particularly the higher orders)
Although I know both SE and ICE write women as utterly equal to men...something which is still stupidly rare even in fantasy...so I may be wrong...but that is an interesting point...Perhaps it is simply because They dont collaborate on utterly EVERYTHING? or maybe its simply because the two books were written at very different times. In MOI Mok and Tool are pretty much on the same level with Mok being that bit faster which makes him superior...Perhaps Gruntle only begins to gain his imba strength as time goes on? When he first meets the Kell Hunters he's reluctant and grouchy (bit like most of the books actually) and hasn't recieved his torcs yet...as time goes on he gets the torcs from .. picker? or blend? whichever, and his skin turns and his thoughts get more brutal and his desires get harsher and more bloody...so perhaps at the start he is hard by human standards but not THAT hard...although your point about the lower ranked seguleh is noted...maybe the seg do have some super natural bone prowess or something...who knows..

ah...But Karsa broke the 12th's arms didn't he?

Ah well

Inconsistencies...dont ruin the books though eh

He broke the female 12th wrists yes when she parried his swords. Gruntle gets the torcs off Picker

Im not saying Gruntle didnt become stronger/faster when he became more Mortal Sword like as MOI went on. Im saying that he was always described as huge and strong. Harllo was also described as strong. Yet Gruntle tries to parry a Kell Hunters blade and breaks his wrist under the impact. Harllo's sword is actually shattered under the blow just before he dies. With Mok and Tool its still odd that Tool (who we know has 'super' strength) cant simply overbear Mok who is a more skilled swordsman. For example its noted that Blues is the Weaponmaster of the CGRD, the best in terms of sheer technique with a variety of weapons, yet he could be overborne, I think is the phrase used, by lazar, Skinner etc. I just found it odd that an 11th level initiate with thin longswords (how most seguleh weapons are described) could parry blws against a Kell Hunter.

[Abyss]

Gruntle and Harlo held up their swords to block and were broken sheer superior undead K'ell strength.

Senu and Thurule would have had better position, balance, knowledge of their weapons, etc etc all the things that make a difference between 'veteran' caravan guards who have been fighting bandits all their lives and fanatically trained monk-warriors who knew exactly what they were going up against.

And for what it's worth, Senu and Thurule were exceptional Seguleh chosen to accompany the Third into battle.... Krul and Envy are surprised that the First didn't send an army and express that the three who were sent are the equivalent. The group on the ship that IB and co encounter are not as extraordinary, as Seguleh go.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 28 November 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

And for what it's worth, Senu and Thurule were exceptional Seguleh chosen to accompany the Third into battle.... Krul and Envy are surprised that the First didn't send an army and express that the three who were sent are the equivalent. The group on the ship that IB and co encounter are not as extraordinary, as Seguleh go.

Well thats not true based on what we've heard. If Senu and Thurule were 11th and 14th level initiates like they said than they were still learning. And from what we know about the Seguleh society, they don't seem like the type that would hold someone back because they are too young.

And the one that Bars took out on the boat was in the Agatii, among the thousand best Seguleh. Since she was the lowest ranked on the boat that means they sent out an expedition of at least 8 members of the top 1000 of themselves. I'd say its an extraordinary ship.

[Abyss]

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 29 November 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

...If Senu and Thurule were 11th and 14th level initiates like they said than they were still learning. ...

Iirc, we do learn that Senu is an 11th level initiate, altho we do not actually know what that means, and Thurule is actually an Agatii ranking altho i don't think we ever learned exactly what #.

Seeing as how Senu keeps up with Thurule and Mok right through the entire mess, we might conclude that he's actually very good and simply hadn't made a move up the rankings yet, possibly due to his age or not having had the opportunity yet.

Quote

And the one that Bars took out on the boat was in the Agatii, among the thousand best Seguleh. Since she was the lowest ranked on the boat that means they sent out an expedition of at least 8 members of the top 1000 of themselves. I'd say its an extraordinary ship.

Sure but they could have been numbers 1000 through 992 for all we know, and that doesn't automatically make any of them better than an Avowed and specifically one of the best of the Avowed.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 29 November 2011 - 03:13 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 29 November 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

...If Senu and Thurule were 11th and 14th level initiates like they said than they were still learning. ...

Iirc, we do learn that Senu is an 11th level initiate, altho we do not actually know what that means, and Thurule is actually an Agatii ranking altho i don't think we ever learned exactly what #.

Seeing as how Senu keeps up with Thurule and Mok right through the entire mess, we might conclude that he's actually very good and simply hadn't made a move up the rankings yet, possibly due to his age or not having had the opportunity yet.

Quote

And the one that Bars took out on the boat was in the Agatii, among the thousand best Seguleh. Since she was the lowest ranked on the boat that means they sent out an expedition of at least 8 members of the top 1000 of themselves. I'd say its an extraordinary ship.

Sure but they could have been numbers 1000 through 992 for all we know, and that doesn't automatically make any of them better than an Avowed and specifically one of the best of the Avowed.

I have to agree with WJD on this one.

They were not chosen because they were exceptional they were chosen because they were Moks brothers. Its possible the Seguleh First sent Mok away because of his growing prowes yet didnt want to leave his vengeful brothers on Seguleh Island. He sent Mok away because he wanted him away from his position not because it was a force of equal worth. Senu is an 11th level initiate. Krul and Envy are suprised that the First sent the Third because he expected the First to send 400 hundred 11th level initiates, so the rank is hardly exceptional and must rank a bit lower than the Agatii for their to be 400 of them. Also Senu is 14 at the time with Rell being a young man yet one of the youngest to be in the Agatii. This coupled with the amount of initiates, likely not all of the 11th level initiates on the Island, hardly makes Senu exceptional for a Seguleh and probably wasnt why he was chosen.

Im sure we still dont know what rank Thurule is and it doesnt tell us in MOI but his mask is described as slightly less marked than Senus so its possible hes low in the Agatii or another level of initiate. Theyre both probably a fair bit higher than the Blackmasks that are mentoned as killing the Pannion priests but may be a fair way away from the Agatii.

Id have to say that I also agree that the ship filled with Agatii are more exceptional than Senu and Thurule. While we know little of the Seguleh heirarchy a few of their top 1000 warriors on one ship commanded by one in the top 20 is exceptional and likely reflects the importance of the quest they seem to be on. . As I said before there seems to be alot of the 11th level initiates, and while we dont know what that means precisely they are likely substantially less skilled than the Agatii. Also if you could quote fu the part where it says Thurule is an Agatii that would be helpful because IIRC we're only told his mask is slightly less marked than Senus.

Also to say that Senu might not have had an opportunity yet or because of his age might not be accurate either. Rell is an exception but we are told that deserving young Seguleh have been admitted into the Agatii before. While I dont believe that nepotism is prevalent in Seguleh society, if it has any influence at all then he would have been given his chance with his brother being the Third.

While the Seguleh on the boat may have been 1000th uptill 988 or something is possible it seems unlikely given the highest ranked member of the ship was 20th. Its more probable that Bars beat a middling to upper level rank Agatii but even this means little in relation Bars. Id say though that it does make the ship more exceptional than Senu and Thurule.

This post has been edited by tiam: 29 November 2011 - 07:35 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Abyss, on 29 November 2011 - 03:13 PM, said:

WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 29 November 2011 - 12:27 AM, said:

...If Senu and Thurule were 11th and 14th level initiates like they said than they were still learning. ...

Iirc, we do learn that Senu is an 11th level initiate, altho we do not actually know what that means, and Thurule is actually an Agatii ranking altho i don't think we ever learned exactly what #.

Seeing as how Senu keeps up with Thurule and Mok right through the entire mess, we might conclude that he's actually very good and simply hadn't made a move up the rankings yet, possibly due to his age or not having had the opportunity yet.

Quote

And the one that Bars took out on the boat was in the Agatii, among the thousand best Seguleh. Since she was the lowest ranked on the boat that means they sent out an expedition of at least 8 members of the top 1000 of themselves. I'd say its an extraordinary ship.

Sure but they could have been numbers 1000 through 992 for all we know, and that doesn't automatically make any of them better than an Avowed and specifically one of the best of the Avowed.

When do I mention anything about the Seguleh being better than the Avowed? I was just saying that there were Seguleh on the boat ranked higher the Senu and Thurule, which makes them more exception than Senu and Thurule.

[Abyss]

My point is that ranking in the Agatii reflects a Seguleh having challenged those ahead of them on the ladder. If the challenge hasn't taken place for whatever reason (by example the Second being unavailable, Rell being considered impetuous, etc ) then a superior fighter could remain lower on the ladder, including not even entering the Agatii.

For all we know, Senu could be better than number '1000' but Seguleh law states he's not allowed the challenge until he's 18, or every five years, or someone else kills #1000 etc etc.

We learned from Rell in RCG that contrary to what we may have assumed from MoI, the Seguleh culture isn't one big carnagefeste of warriors challenging and slaughtering each other every other hour or so. Far from it.

The ranking is an internal system based on a culture we've seen little of. What is very clear is that Senu and Thurule were extremely good at what they did.

Btw, at the end of MoI while Mok and Tool are waving their swords at each other, Senu and Thurule take a shot at the Pannion Seer and get beaten back by two undead Kell - the events are somewhat lost in Paran and QB jumping in and Rake steering Moon's Spawn into the palace, but it's pretty clear the two Seguleh are losing when other things start happening.

[tiam]

Abyss, on 30 November 2011 - 02:48 PM, said:

My point is that ranking in the Agatii reflects a Seguleh having challenged those ahead of them on the ladder. If the challenge hasn't taken place for whatever reason (by example the Second being unavailable, Rell being considered impetuous, etc ) then a superior fighter could remain lower on the ladder, including not even entering the Agatii.

For all we know, Senu could be better than number '1000' but Seguleh law states he's not allowed the challenge until he's 18, or every five years, or someone else kills #1000 etc etc.

We learned from Rell in RCG that contrary to what we may have assumed from MoI, the Seguleh culture isn't one big carnagefeste of warriors challenging and slaughtering each other every other hour or so. Far from it.

The ranking is an internal system based on a culture we've seen little of. What is very clear is that Senu and Thurule were extremely good at what they did.

Btw, at the end of MoI while Mok and Tool are waving their swords at each other, Senu and Thurule take a shot at the Pannion Seer and get beaten back by two undead Kell - the events are somewhat lost in Paran and QB jumping in and Rake steering Moon's Spawn into the palace, but it's pretty clear the two Seguleh are losing when other things start happening.

While they could remain lower on the ladder the very fact that Rell thought he was ready, was given a shot and pulled through does make me think if Senu was good enough he would have had his chance. Im sure it doesnt say Thurule is in the Agatii aswell so he may simply be a higher level initiate than Senu. I take your point that there may have been rituals involved that stopped Senu but it seems unlikely tbh. If Senu (and Thurule) felt they could have advanced their position im sure they would have.

While it isnt an example as such, IB was challenged straight away by the 20th to assume his domination over a lower ranked Agatii. Thus if an Agatii felt challenged by a particularly well connected 11th level initiate/whatever rank Thurule is im sure they would have challenged them. though the IB example may not be applicable as he was a foreigner.

The part where Senu and Thurule are struggling with the Kell is the part im on about as they are tired and already wounded by this point after the march. Yet im fairly certain theyre described as exchanging blows which shouldnt be possible, which was my point long ago

[Abyss]

tiam, on 30 November 2011 - 07:32 PM, said:

... me think if Senu was good enough he would have had his chance.

Via Rell we're clearly told there is way more to Seguleh ranking than jamming the pointy end in the other guy.

Quote

IB was challenged straight away by the 20th to assume his domination over a lower ranked Agatii.

IB was the challenger on the sailor's suggestion.

Quote

Thus if an Agatii felt challenged by a particularly well connected 11th level initiate/whatever rank Thurule is im sure they would have challenged them. though the IB example may not be applicable as he was a foreigner.

Not quite. We've seen Seguleh challenge foreigners where the status is uncertain, ie: Tool in MoI, the 14th in TtH.

The point is Seguleh know exactly where they stand with each other because of their whole cultural system, and challenge each other on that basis, whatever it is. A warrior monk culture isn'tlikely to foster a system where all their best warriors are perpetually killing each other.

We've seen reference to the First copnspiring to keep Mok clear, and Rell's narrative (and some reference in later books i won't spoil here) to other elements dictating exactly when Seguleh fight Seguleh and they seem to be pretty specific.

Quote

The part where Senu and Thurule are struggling with the Kell is the part im on about as they are tired and already wounded by this point after the march. Yet im fairly certain theyre described as exchanging blows which shouldnt be possible, which was my point long ago

Your point seems to be that if Senu (or whoever) was that frikkin good he would obviously be ranked higher.
My response is that we see Senu IS that frikkin good and yet he is NOT ranked higher, and i think there are cultural reasons for that.

[tiam]

I still cant do that quote small sections of text thing so ill go over what I mean.

Via Rell- Yes Rell tells us there is a commitee/council of judges that oversaw one of Rells fights, probably a ranking fight, when he was part of the Agatii and he was penalised because of what they judged was a lapse in technique. That doesnt really effect Senu at all. What Im saying is that if Senu was THAT good he would have had his chance, in the same way that Rell did. Just because there may be other ways of progressing without killing does not mean that Senu can be considered an Agatii who hasnt had his chance.

IB and the 20th- Yes thats my point. IB challenged tee lowest ranking member on the orders of that sailor. But after the defeat of the unknown rank Seguleh the 20th (Oru I think) challenged Bars not in the exact order. As weve both noted though this may be to do with foreigners and there being different customs.

Not Quite- I think you mean the 14th in RG there? Anyway as you say they all know where they stand in relation to each other. Yet as with the example of Rell we see that age isnt a barrier, or atleast a substantial barrier. Rell may have killed his opponent to enter the Agatii or simply outdone him based on the judges decision. Thats not really relevant to Senus advancement, as what Im getting at is its easy to say that Senu can be considered an Agatii but hasnt got his chance etc but I dont think thats the case. Hes just an 11th level initiate, one of 400 Krul expected the First to send, with Mok. The First sent Mok away because of his growing prowesss and with only a small contingent so that he wouldnt come back.

Please post relevant future section in spoiler tags please so I know what you mean aswell as where it says where Thurule is an Agatii.

Your point seems to be- My point is that if he was as good as you seem to think he is he would be ranked higher. Cultural barriers are what neither of us can really comment on given the lack of info. The only point youve made is age and we have Rell as an example of how thats not wholly relevant. I personally believe that if Senu was that good he would be ranked at least in the Agatii.

The real point I was making about the exchange of blows at the end of MOI when theyre fighting the Kell Hunters is the lack of strength that Seguleh possess. Were given a swordsmans (IB) perspective of an Agatii level Seguleh fighting style and he claims its blinding speed,excellent technique but not back by blows of power and this is what allows him to defeat that unranked Agatii. This fits in with what weve seen from Senu and Thurule and their thin longswords in MOI. Were also told that Blues is the premier Weaponsmaster of the CGRD yet could be overborne by Lazar Skinner etc. So my point is: How do KCCM Senu and Thurule exchange blows when Gruntle cant even take a blow from the KCCM? They should have been overborne, like Gruntle was. As soon as we saw that account by IB on the boat I wondered how the Kell Hunter didnt simply sweep them aside. Hardly a huge point but this is the thread for Seguleh inconsistencies

This post has been edited by tiam: 30 November 2011 - 11:31 PM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I'm drunk and don't feel like posting a long message. But a quote from Mok in MoI "The demands of the self have primacy. Else there would be no champions." (from memory) that makes it obvious to me that there is no only challenging every 5 years, or you have to be a certain age to challenge someone.

It seems like since we don't know a lot about Seguleh culture you are deciding there must be blanks to fill in and assuming what they are, instead of just going on what we've seen and heard.

[Abyss]

Actually i'm pointing out that the blanks leave open possibilities other than Seguleh Island being one massive Fight Club, albeit without Meatloaf sporting man boobs, but that's fine... we can agree to disagree.