[L'oric]

Does anyone have the quote from K'rul that states what he thought the Seguleh first would send. I seem to remember it has a few hundred "blank" level initiates or a few thousand black masks but not the first.

[Aptorian]

You're on the right track. It was something along the lines of a small army of low level initiates.

Try looking it up in the encyclopedia.

[Imperial Historian]

"Tell me, K'rul, did you think the Seguleh First would send someone as highly ranked as the Third to lead his punitive army?'
Admittedly, no. For this task, of splitting the Seer's forces into two fronts, I had expected perhaps three or four hundred Eleventh Level initiates. Sufficient to inconvenience the Seer enough to draw an army or two away from the approaching Malazans. Yet, with the Second missing, and with Mok's growing prowess, no doubt the First had his reasons."

There ya go.

[Jumpy]

blackzoid, on Mar 24 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

You seem to have forgotten that Therule and Senu fought KCCM Kell hunters by themesleves during MOI.
Elite Kell hunters if their armour is anything to go on. Paran and Quick Ben were astonished by their movements. This was when Mok was looking for Tool.
(Undead Kell hunters who had no problems taking out Treach. Treach who was able to beat Ryllandaras and knocked him into the chasm at Li Heng. So therefore one could argue Therule+ Senu > KCCM > Treach> Ryllandaras. Ryllandaras killed Rell. Course we don't know if that was Soletaken Ryllandaras or D'ivers Ryllandaras. And SE and ICE don't really have a strict hierarchy of fighters anyway.)

I don't know if Rell is worse then them but there is no conclusive evidence to say that he is better then them.
And how do you figue Rell could beat Tool? Tool was losing to Mok, but he is the freaking 3rd!
I don't think Tool gets enough credit as a swordsman/swordszombie.

Ryllandaras is a God. An Ascendant, worshipped by mortals. Is that not a definition of the word "God" on Wu? Yeah, Treach was beaten by three to four K'ell Hunters, but that was, obviously, before he became a God. Do you think Hunters would challenge him now? And come out on top? I highly, highly doubt that they could beat the God of War. Ryllandaras is the same way -- he is an Ascendant God. While anyone, anywhere in this series can kill anyone, I'm doubting Treach or Ryllanadars would lose to a couple of KCCM.

That Senu and Thurule can hold their own against KCCM is astonishing. Those dudes are badasses. However, Rell fought against something terrible. Himself. Badly wounded already (but so were Thurule and Senu). And he beat Ryllandaras' ass so bad that he was set up for his end in the old lady's ritual. That, to me, is way more hardcore. And besides, we're pretty sure Rell-o was at least in the Agatii, I myself thinking double digits somewhere, and we're also pretty sure Senu and Thurule are initiates, though less certain about Thurule than Senu.

I don't doubt Tool's abilities. We've all read GotM and MoI, friend. I love Tool. But, I think that with his powers so diminished, in turn hampering his ability to compete with master swordsmen, he could have been beaten by several pure swordsmen we've seen. I believe that, in this series anyone can and probably will die by the hand of someone of comparable strength. In the situation in MoI, Tool was at a very low point. Fully powered, he'd probably have done way better than he did against Mok.

On another train of thought, I don't think that Iron Bars was really wanting to fight. At all. I forget, however, if he knew what the Segulah are. He didn't know, right? The ship's captain was trying to explain to him how extremely bad ass the Segulah are. I was actually really impressed with Iron Bars in that fight. As mentioned before he had taken serious wounds prior to his engagement with the Segulah. He was definitly not up to strength. I've read in other posts how pissed people were at how different Bars' performances were in MT and RotCG. It seemed appropiate to me, though. And, he still managed to kill that Segulah, which is exactly why I am impressed. Everyone knows, though, that a fully up-and-running Iron Bars could have taken that Segulah far easier than he actually did. Maybe he could've challeneged the higer ranked one, even. Iron Bars eats Gods for breakfast, and then again for dinner.

This post has been edited by Jumpy: 26 March 2009 - 05:33 PM

[blackzoid]

Jumpy, on Mar 26 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

blackzoid, on Mar 24 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

You seem to have forgotten that Therule and Senu fought KCCM Kell hunters by themesleves during MOI.
Elite Kell hunters if their armour is anything to go on. Paran and Quick Ben were astonished by their movements. This was when Mok was looking for Tool.
(Undead Kell hunters who had no problems taking out Treach. Treach who was able to beat Ryllandaras and knocked him into the chasm at Li Heng. So therefore one could argue Therule+ Senu > KCCM > Treach> Ryllandaras. Ryllandaras killed Rell. Course we don't know if that was Soletaken Ryllandaras or D'ivers Ryllandaras. And SE and ICE don't really have a strict hierarchy of fighters anyway.)

I don't know if Rell is worse then them but there is no conclusive evidence to say that he is better then them.
And how do you figue Rell could beat Tool? Tool was losing to Mok, but he is the freaking 3rd!
I don't think Tool gets enough credit as a swordsman/swordszombie.

Ryllandaras is a God. An Ascendant, worshipped by mortals. Is that not a definition of the word "God" on Wu? Yeah, Treach was beaten by three to four K'ell Hunters, but that was, obviously, before he became a God. Do you think Hunters would challenge him now? And come out on top? I highly, highly doubt that they could beat the God of War. Ryllandaras is the same way -- he is an Ascendant God. While anyone, anywhere in this series can kill anyone, I'm doubting Treach or Ryllanadars would lose to a couple of KCCM.

That Senu and Thurule can hold their own against KCCM is astonishing. Those dudes are badasses. However, Rell fought against something terrible. Himself. Badly wounded already (but so were Thurule and Senu). And he beat Ryllandaras' ass so bad that he was set up for his end in the old lady's ritual. That, to me, is way more hardcore. And besides, we're pretty sure Rell-o was at least in the Agatii, I myself thinking double digits somewhere, and we're also pretty sure Senu and Thurule are initiates, though less certain about Thurule than Senu.

I don't doubt Tool's abilities. We've all read GotM and MoI, friend. I love Tool. But, I think that with his powers so diminished, in turn hampering his ability to compete with master swordsmen, he could have been beaten by several pure swordsmen we've seen. I believe that, in this series anyone can and probably will die by the hand of someone of comparable strength. In the situation in MoI, Tool was at a very low point. Fully powered, he'd probably have done way better than he did against Mok.

On another train of thought, I don't think that Iron Bars was really wanting to fight. At all. I forget, however, if he knew what the Segulah are. He didn't know, right? The ship's captain was trying to explain to him how extremely bad ass the Segulah are. I was actually really impressed with Iron Bars in that fight. As mentioned before he had taken serious wounds prior to his engagement with the Segulah. He was definitly not up to strength. I've read in other posts how pissed people were at how different Bars' performances were in MT and RotCG. It seemed appropiate to me, though. And, he still managed to kill that Segulah, which is exactly why I am impressed. Everyone knows, though, that a fully up-and-running Iron Bars could have taken that Segulah far easier than he actually did. Maybe he could've challeneged the higer ranked one, even. Iron Bars eats Gods for breakfast, and then again for dinner.

Hmm, while Ryllandaras is most certainly an Ascendent, or "First Hero" as the First Empire Soletaken were called, I don't know if he was an actual God as such. It may be splitting hairs, but I assumed he was no stronger then Treach was, before Treach's death at the claws of the KCCM. If Ryllandaras is much better, then fair play to Rell.

Do we actually know that Rell was in the Agatii? I thought he was an initiate like Senu. How old was Rell supposed to be?

Tool is the only non-bonecastor T'lan Imass we have met that is able to use Tellann. It may be a GotMism but Erikson does refer to Silverfox draining his warren in MoI. I don't know what advantage Tellann gives him, but I doubt (have no proof however) that the ability to use Tellann affects his swordsman ship ability.

[Abyss]

We really need an authoritative Seguleh hierarchy list. It's hard to keep the rankings straight, let along have any idea where they stand vis each other. The below is pure speculation and weak recall so chime in...

The Agatii - The Top 1000

First - Unseen but ref'd by Krul and Envy in MoI
Second - Knight of Hood (possibly undead), technically on vacation from the Agatii
Third - Mok
7th - Rake
12th - Commanded the ship Iron Bars and co met in RCG
13th - Female Seguleh Karsa beats at Leth in RG
18th - Thurule
20th - Female killed by Iron Bars in RCG

Initiates - Let's say 15 levels, from Black Mask being lowest to '15th level initiate' (the number being pure speculation on my part) being the highest you can rise before possibly entering the Agatii

14th Level Initiate - Senu, last seen in MoI.

Exiles (Unranked for various reasons):
Rell
Madrun
Door
Studlock (possibly)


Thoughts?

- Abyss, ...1/2th...

This post has been edited by Abyss: 26 March 2009 - 08:39 PM

[Fox]

I think this list is a great start. We absolutely need a definitive list. Shouldn't Iron Bars be on it? Didn't the Seguleh leader say he would add his name to their rankings?

[Abyss]

i'm reluctant to try to interpret things like whether IB, Tool or Karsa or anyone else should be on the Agatii. Rake is delcared to be 7th more than once in MoI so i figure that rates inclusion but it's hard enough to figure out where the others stand without trying to adjust for non-Seguleh characters they fought along the way.


- Abyss, ...was told there would be no math...

[Aptorian]

Abyss, on Mar 26 2009, 08:19 PM, said:

We really need an authoritative Seguleh hierarchy list. It's hard to keep the rankings straight, let along have any idea where they stand vis each other. The below is pure speculation and weak recall so chime in...

The Agatii - The Top 1000

First - Unseen but ref'd by Krul and Envy in MoI
Second - Knight of Hood (possibly undead), technically on vacation from the Agatii
Third - Mok
7th - Rake
12th - Commanded the ship Iron Bars and co met in RCG
13th - Female Seguleh Karsa beats at Leth in RG
18th - Thurule
20th - Female killed by Iron Bars in RCG

7th Dassem

The commander of the ship was not the twelth if I recall correctly. Someone's mentioned somewhere that he was the twentieth, but I don't know if the number was mentioned I recall him having a lot of slashes, like more than nineteen/twenty.

The female in RG was the 11th or 12th, she was beaten by Karsa, so he's the 11th or 12th

The person that Iron Bars fought was way down on the list I believe.

I really should go look up the ship scene in RCG, but I'm too tired.

EDIT: Otherwise a good idea, this list.

[Jumpy]

Quote

Hmm, while Ryllandaras is most certainly an Ascendent, or "First Hero" as the First Empire Soletaken were called, I don't know if he was an actual God as such. It may be splitting hairs, but I assumed he was no stronger then Treach was, before Treach's death at the claws of the KCCM. If Ryllandaras is much better, then fair play to Rell.

Do we actually know that Rell was in the Agatii? I thought he was an initiate like Senu. How old was Rell supposed to be?

Tool is the only non-bonecastor T'lan Imass we have met that is able to use Tellann. It may be a GotMism but Erikson does refer to Silverfox draining his warren in MoI. I don't know what advantage Tellann gives him, but I doubt (have no proof however) that the ability to use Tellann affects his swordsman ship ability.

I'm not sure. I'd like to think that he is, considering time and time again they've said an Ascendant with Worshippers is considered a god. Who knows, he could be a denier. Or maybe I'm just crazy.

I'm speculating about him being in the Agatii. But, others agree. Its something he said to the extent of him being one of the youngest people to be in the Agatii, but doesn't actually use the word "Agatii." Where he disputes a decision made by the Segulah ruling cousel. Right?

And, when I said that Tellan was being drained, well he was losing his metaphysical T'lan Imass badassery stamina. Like he was wearing down. As if his oil needed changing. Does that make sense? And, all I'mass use Tellan, I thought. Onrack mentions the loss of contact with Tellan; unable to communicate with other I'mass far or near. And other occurences.

Still, I could be crazy.

This post has been edited by Jumpy: 27 March 2009 - 01:35 AM

[Smashy]

I think anyone who beats a Seguleh should be on this list. I thought that if you beat one you take his place in the rankings.

[Tapper]

Iirc, of the punitive army, only Mok was Numbered, and the other two were Levelled, with Thurule higher than Senu.
It would make little sense to send the Third and the Eighteenth and then give them a Fourteenth Level initiate to cook and clean... one of their non-combatants (unmasked people?) would serve a lot better for that purpose.

This is based partly on my guess that in Seguleh society, the best ones have a responsibility over the weaker ones - it is said somewhere by Mok that the strong don't just rule because they are strong, but because they, through their strength and vision, can look out for the weaker ones without ever creating a political establishment.
With that in mind, I'd say that if the youngster died in combat against a threat that's deemed challenging, but not insurmountable, Mok would go free.

Pitching him into a 'you're SOOOOOOOOOO dead' situation against, let's say, a full company of seerdomen, would reflect badly on Mok and Thurule... waste of a valuable recruit. All in all, It might well be that the instruction from the 1st was:
'Mok, go there, kick their ass, and bring a couple of companions cause someone needs to do the cooking.'
'Sure thing, I'll take my younger brothers with me, they'll enjoy the road trip.'

For the same reason, I'd say that the 12th and the 20th weren't on the same ship. If you have several hundred 11th level initiates, you're talking a society of several thousand warriors at the least, plus 1000 elite on top of that.
Why would you possibly then put 2 of your best 20 fighters on the same ship (assuming you have more than 1, that is)?

I got the distinct impression that, like it happened in MoI with Tool, the lowest ranked Seguleh in the boarding party was sent to duel IB. If that was the 20th, I guess they were planning to take on the entire Edur Fleet all by themselves

[beru]

i think it was the translator from the segule ship that said that the chalenger that IB turned down was about 20th rank...

somting like:
good you turned him down. if i rad corectly (he means the mask) he is ranked around the 20th best.

parprhased

[Sheve]

"I tried to get a good look at Oru´s mask. If im right, he´s ranked among the top 20."
page; 267 RotCG

so with 15 Seguleh in the boot and the one iron bars killed there is no way that one was 20th.

First - Unseen but ref'd by Krul and Envy in MoI
Second - Knight of Hood (possibly undead), technically on vacation from the Agatii smile.gif
Third - Mok
7th - Rake//Dassem
13th - Female Seguleh Karsa beats at Leth in RG
18th - Thurule???
20 and below - commander of the boat.
35 ->1000 Iron Bars somewhere.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the female segulah in letheras was the eleventh i thought

[tiam]

There is inconsistencies though. For example nt sure if this has been mentioned but when Mok fights tool he beats him (obviosly). When IB i fightingt tht woman he comments that they are quick but not strong shown also by karsa. Now Tool earlier on broke the antlers off a stag with little effort, shit example i know. But the point im getting at is that Tlan Imaass have essentially super strength so why didht tool break Moks wrists like Karsa? I know a shit way of doing it and we can throw the excuse about tht Moks too good but really i dont agree.

ALso i thought Senu an the Letheras Seguleh were 11th thurule was 7th and Mok 3rd. I thought there was more than one of a rank in a similar way to *sigh* terry pratchets ranking system in sourcery , on ly pratchett ive read btw. Just loads of them then when you get to around 5th they get fairly unique.

Also possibility of Samar Devs comment about the Edur fighting overlapping with the seguleh. A ritualistic form of fighting. Granted they adapt better but still cant get round Karsa

[beru]

tool dident break moks wrist beacuse
1: he dident think of it
2:he is even CLOSE to karsas fysical strength

and there is only one of each rank among the 1000 best...
bot the others were proably initats of some rank (senu bieeng 14 rank initaite)

This post has been edited by beru: 29 March 2009 - 02:11 AM

[Aptorian]

T'lan Imass are magically strong, of course they can be as strong as Karsa.

[HoosierDaddy]

Imperial Historian, on Mar 25 2009, 04:35 PM, said:

"Tell me, K'rul, did you think the Seguleh First would send someone as highly ranked as the Third to lead his punitive army?'
Admittedly, no. For this task, of splitting the Seer's forces into two fronts, I had expected perhaps three or four hundred Eleventh Level initiates. Sufficient to inconvenience the Seer enough to draw an army or two away from the approaching Malazans. Yet, with the Second missing, and with Mok's growing prowess, no doubt the First had his reasons."

There ya go.

I'm sorry, but does anyone else read this: "Yet, with the Second missing..." and think that either Hood's Soldier/Knight took the mask and never reported in (thus making the 2nd missing because of lack of news) or read it as "the 2nd's gone missing" because the Seguleh are basically immortal (outside of unnatural causes) and is off doing crazy shit for Hood?

The 2nd confuses the bejesus out of me.

[Aptorian]

The Second is dead. Not just immortal. But yeah, there seems to me more to the Second than just a mortal being with great fighting skills. Perhaps he was once the First and was killed by the present First