[Tiste Simeon]

I hadn't heard about this, but Doctor Horrible was about the best thing I have seen in, like, forever, so I am definitely willing to give this guy another try!

It's not here yet (AFAIK) to, to teh internutz I go!

[Sir Thursday]

What stood out for me in the latest ep were the last couple of Ballard/November scenes. It was like they flipped a switch in Ballard's head, and he suddenly decided if the Dollhouse was going to give him a doll, he was going to use it however he damn well pleased. I thought it was great acting on Ballard's part, and I liked the shower scene afterwards - implying he needs to wash away the filth of using a Doll. Worked really well, IMO.

Dushku really seems like the weak link acting-wise, which is unfortunate given how much screen time she gets. Victor once again impressed me by making me see his persona instead of himself - that guy is really talented (though the less that is said about his accents, the better ). The solving your own murder thing was OK, I guess, and a nice exploration of concept, but I just couldn't get engaged by it. The Topher/Sierra scenes were fun - I really like exploring the characters of the staff at the Dollhouse and this was a nice way of doing that. I like that DeWitt acknowledges the strains and stresses that working there can have on the staff - she experiences it herself, after all. Combatting that in her employees, particularly one as vital as Topher, is a smart idea.


Sir Thursday

[dawnkiller]

Nicodimas, on Apr 25 2009, 01:53 AM, said:

My only gripe about this show is I always seem detached from all the characters. It may be a season one thing that the characters haven't adopted there characters quite yet, but it bugs me. Anyone else getting this vibe?

I think one problem is that half the regulars spend most of their time having any personality BUT their own. That's what's sort of hurting it for me -- I watch ensemble shows in part for chemistry as well as concept, and among the doll-characters there's not many opportunities for that to develop (excepting things like the "everyone gets closure" episode). This makes getting a sense of continuity regarding their development as characters kind of impossible. There are shows out there that focus more on regulars reacting to rotating incidents and the guest-star of the week (the various Law and Orders), but the difference is that in those we see everything through the eyes of the regulars. In Dollhouse, with the exception of Ballard's bits, the focus is usually through the dolls' eyes -- so, basically, a different person every week. DeWitt and Boyd are probably the best ancor-points within the Dollhouse itself, but the show's focus is skewed so the episodes where they can give us real grounding are limited (like the ep where Sierra is being abused, or rooting out the NSA traitor). I actually vastly prefer the eps that focus on the interior of the Dollhouse to those that follow their assignments.

Anyway, in general terms for the last one: Wow, Ballard/Mellie is getting incredibly uncomfortable (in a good way). My Creepy Meter maxed out around the time Mellie said he could "take whatever he needed" from her, and how Ballard reacted to it. It's kind of a callback to the dream he had about finally finding Echo. They both reveal a deep-seated ambivalence about the principle behind the Dollhouse, and what he himself "really" wants. The implications are not entirely flattering for him, and I'm cool with that. Considering what kind of organization the place is, and what its purpose says about human nature, I find it very realistic.

I especially liked Topher's "diagnostic test" subplot. It was both funny and a bit sad. I found it interesting that the personality Topher had programed appeared to be unisex (vocabulary and behavior seemed to indicate it, plus he got an active at random); it indicated that the thing he wanted most was not a lover, like DeWitt, but a friend. It also highlighted one of the non-evil aspects of the Dollhouse, which goes beyond simply high-class sextrade and practical skills-for hire and into deeper emotional needs for people who are suffering or profoundly lonely.

I was more engaged with Echo's A-plot than some of the past ones, and I think it was even pretty well-written, I just didn't have quite as much interest because, you know, I'd rather be watching the regulars. I also think it might have been better to focus more on the continuing plot than another episodic one, but ah well . . .

[Abyss]

I was unimpressed with this ep. The main Echo plotline had a neat idea with the whole 'eternal life' angle but went nowhere with it and was otherwise tedious, predictable and dull. It would have been entirely cooler if Adele's friend's personality had actually made a run for it early and skipped the murder non-mystery.

Topher's playmate thing was cute but could have been one cut segment at the start and the end. Everybody involved has their own reasons to take advantage of the dolls. ok, we get it.

Ballard/November was excellent creepy but not enough to save the otherwise weak ep. I also liked how the FBi computer flashed all these alternate identities for November before wiping the file.

Am not hopeful for this show, but will stick around until the end. Watch them have 2 or 3 AMAZING eps just as the show ceases to exist.

Apparently there's a 'thirteenth ep' that won't be shown because Fox wants to hold it back for the DVD collection.

- Abyss, ...sigh

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on Apr 27 2009, 12:06 PM, said:

Am not hopeful for this show

It's a Joss Whedon show on Fox and you EVER had hope for it? : )

[Abyss]

Buffy and Angel outlasted everyone's expectations.


- Abyss, ...clings to the past like a drowning sailor to an inflated blow-up doll...

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on Apr 27 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

Buffy and Angel outlasted everyone's expectations.

I think Buffy and Angel started a little stronger, is the thing. Dollhouse is slower and more cerebral/conceptual, with ongoing plots (Ballard's investigation, Alpha's rebellion) present from the very beginning -- but on the way we get these weird little episodic digressions, and it feels a bit uneven. Understandable, as the show is still finding its feet, but problematic. Angel and Buffy both started primarily episodic and stayed that way for most of the first season, then started growing mythology (a detail I believe you made a while ago). While I personally like open-to-plot type series, I think Dollhouse is trying to hybridize it with episodic and it's making both aspects a little shaky. It's also a damned hard concept to sell ALREADY because of the inherent storytelling challenges of the ever-changing personalities of half the cast. If Whedon felt he could take his time, I think it would be okay -- but since I'm pretty sure he suspected he'd really only get the 13 episodes he seems to have been trying to cram in the range the series would have had over the length of one or two seasons, so it's coming off a bit weird.

(Personally, if it'd been my call I'd've started it off by changing the POV char from Echo to Boyd, running her through the first engagements from his outsider's POV and slowly revealing evidence she wasn't a cucumber until we fell into a flashback of how she got to that position. Don't tell us she is special, let us start to notice little things alongside the more relatable Boyd. It would have made later eps which featured the dolls suddenly showing signs of their former lives that much more bitchin' if the reveal was gradual. But that's me. : )

[Dagger]

Echo's A-plot was just OK but it had it's moments. The Topher thing was great, especially once we find out that it's a.) not about boinking, and b.) that he does this once a year and Adelle lets it happen. Ballard's plot line was some seriously twisted shit. None of these people, other than the dolls are innocent - which is pretty twisted for network TV and probably one reason why the show isn't getting the ratings.

In terms of acting, Dusku is only so-so. She has a pretty limited range, especially considering what we have seen from Dichen Lachman
and Enver Gjokaj who have added nuance to some very different characters with each time their doll goes active.

[Abyss]

Angel was just a spin-off of Buffy so it had an audience built in from Buffy's first four seasons. Buffy was almost entirely episodic for the first season until the last four eps or so - and sure, once you've locked in your audience, THEN give them more. Even Buffy's second season wrapped the S1 cliffhange then went back to episodic for most of the first half before Angel went all homicidal and started picking off cast members, which was when the show went from good to AWESOME. But that's the trick... pull us in, set the hook, THEN blow our minds with your mad tv producer genius. Trying to hook the audience with in depth backstory fails more often than not - see INVASION, THRESHOLD, etc.

LOST was a fluke wrapped in JJ Abrams' pajamas (and really, the first season is episodic precisely because the producers didn't know wtf they were doing), and 24, which makes self-contained-yet-always-continued an art form the lowest common denominator loves, i can't think of a single show that survived more than 2 seasons when it went heavy on the overplot from day one. Even the X-Files stuck to freak-of-the-week for its first season for the most part. ALIAS kept it simple, complicated things gloriously in the second season and then it all fell apart. Even DEXTER, which is plot heavy, keeps most of the eps for the beginning of each season relatively self-contained. Also, it's a cable show with a more sophisticated audience. B5 and BSG got by on the sf crowd and cgi becoming cheaper. You can't broadcast on Fox and expect genius audiences.

Back to DOLLHOUSE, Joss really should have reined back the backstory a LOT and given us more capers, more over-the-top-holy-CRAP-did-a-Doll-just-DO-that and less 'very special episodes'. Ballard's plotlines have been great but when your tertiary background plot is your best one, something isn't working.

sadly.


- Abyss, alas.

[dawnkiller]

Ab-las -

Yeah, it's too bad. They're trying to serve two masters, with varying results. Plus I do agree with Dagger and his point that Dushku is the weak-acting-link, which is quite unfortunate when that particular actor is your headliner. It's driving me a bit crazy, though. I like the concept a lot, the execution is just muddled.

I say they tie the series into the Buffyverse. If there's a problem out there that can't be solved by throwing vampires at it, I certainly haven't seen it.

[Sir Thursday]

Abyss, on Apr 28 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

Angel was just a spin-off of Buffy so it had an audience built in from Buffy's first four seasons. Buffy was almost entirely episodic for the first season until the last four eps or so - and sure, once you've locked in your audience, THEN give them more. Even Buffy's second season wrapped the S1 cliffhange then went back to episodic for most of the first half before Angel went all homicidal and started picking off cast members, which was when the show went from good to AWESOME. But that's the trick... pull us in, set the hook, THEN blow our minds with your mad tv producer genius. Trying to hook the audience with in depth backstory fails more often than not - see INVASION, THRESHOLD, etc.

LOST was a fluke wrapped in JJ Abrams' pajamas (and really, the first season is episodic precisely because the producers didn't know wtf they were doing), and 24, which makes self-contained-yet-always-continued an art form the lowest common denominator loves, i can't think of a single show that survived more than 2 seasons when it went heavy on the overplot from day one. Even the X-Files stuck to freak-of-the-week for its first season for the most part. ALIAS kept it simple, complicated things gloriously in the second season and then it all fell apart. Even DEXTER, which is plot heavy, keeps most of the eps for the beginning of each season relatively self-contained. Also, it's a cable show with a more sophisticated audience. B5 and BSG got by on the sf crowd and cgi becoming cheaper. You can't broadcast on Fox and expect genius audiences.

Back to DOLLHOUSE, Joss really should have reined back the backstory a LOT and given us more capers, more over-the-top-holy-CRAP-did-a-Doll-just-DO-that and less 'very special episodes'. Ballard's plotlines have been great but when your tertiary background plot is your best one, something isn't working.

sadly.


- Abyss, alas.

They tried this with the first 5 episodes though. And lets be honest, Episode 6 was much, much better than the previous 5. If they hadn't introduced the backstory/plot arc heavy elements when they did, I'd probably have walked away, as, I suspect, would a lot of others. The problem is that the principal viewer base for Dollhouse is one that enjoys having an overarching storyline, and I don't think the show would have stood a chance in hell of surviving without it.


Sir Thursday

[Abyss]

dawnkiller, on Apr 28 2009, 10:52 AM, said:

...
I say they tie the series into the Buffyverse. If there's a problem out there that can't be solved by throwing vampires at it, I certainly haven't seen it.

The second Topher programs Echo, Sierra and November with Vampire Slayer profiles, Boyd stops concealing a british accent and the Watchers are revealed to be behind the Dollhouses, i'm a fan for life.

Sir Thursday, on Apr 28 2009, 11:07 AM, said:

...
They tried this with the first 5 episodes though. And lets be honest, Episode 6 was much, much better than the previous 5. If they hadn't introduced the backstory/plot arc heavy elements when they did, I'd probably have walked away, as, I suspect, would a lot of others. The problem is that the principal viewer base for Dollhouse is one that enjoys having an overarching storyline, and I don't think the show would have stood a chance in hell of surviving without it.

Sir Thursday

See, I take a slightly different tack. Sure ep 6 was strong, but when they drag the audience through five mediocre eps with the promise that things will get better (see also 'Firefly"), the show is already dead in the water. HOUSE didn't become a smash ratings hit by spending six eps building to Dr House becoming an asshole. No, they BEAT US SENSELESS with him being a jerk in the first ep. And the second. and so on and the audience loved it. With ALIAS, it was "Jennifer Garner dresses up like a prostitute and kicks dudes, things 'splode, oh, and there's a consipracy in here somewh..hey LOOK! BIKINI!!!!!".

Overreaching plot is fine, as background. As flavour. As hints. But it won't save a weak show. Those first six eps should have been non-stop Echo kicking ass. Not saving cuddly children. Not being a thinly veiled robot hooker. The Dolls should have been positioned as supermodel-looking mercenaries and spies and corporate saboteurs. Instead we got a mediocre hostage drama, a cool wilderness chase, a so-so cult thing, heist thing (started cool, ended weak), lame college thing... sure, there were some neat bits, but the hooks weren't enuf... 'oooh, look, for this episode Echo is 'blind' ', well, she was blind for maybe half the ep and since she wasn't a blind kung fu champion turning off the lights and fighting cultist assassins with night-vision goggles, it just wasn't all that interesting...

The concept was solid but the execution has been more fail than win. Sorry Joss, better luck next time.


- Abyss, alas again.

[Aimless]

Abyss, you're ridiculously pessimistic.

I was very sceptical at first, but I'm finding myself warming to this show, despite annoyances like the ridiculously bad science

I like character-driven shows as much as the next guy, but sometimes it's all about the story, and I think the story Dollhouse is beginning to tell is a cool one. I esp. liked the Otherland turn it took in the latest episode

That said, I'm enjoying the characterisation as well! Both of the personas and of the rudimentary personalities of the Dolls, as well as the non-Doll characters (Topher and Adele in particular--it's great how they've managed to make a sociopath and a ruthless criminal so appealing--but Ballard has steadily become more and more interesting).

I heard somewhere that the last two eps are the first in which the studio execs have backed off and let Whedon do his own thing, and I can believe that. Hope he does good things with this show for a while at least

[Abyss]

I'm happy to be proven wrong and have the show for another year, but i see the signs.

Given a chance, Joss could do great things with this show. But the numbers are saying bad things.

- Abyss, rediculously realistic

[Slum]

Wow, that was a great ep last night! Really set up the season finale to have some great scenes/twists/good stuff.

And, we

Spoiler

finally get to see Alpha in action. It is Alan Tudyk, but they way they set up his appearance was quite funny. From bumbling neurotic pothead to stone-cold killer

[Sixty]

Damn! That was a great episode indeed!

It's a shame we actually only get 12 episodes since FOX counted the pilot as an episode. That means 1 unaired episode that won't be available until the DVD.

[Dagger]

Helluva episode, especially Tudyk. When the revolution comes, Fox execs will be among the first to be lined up against the wall. This show needs a five season commitment.

[dawnkiller]

Yeah, I enjoyed this one. I almost didn't see that reveal coming (process of elimination if nothing else), and especially dug Dominic's quasi-cameo, which was enjoyable in the "wow, this is so sick it's actually making me uncomfortable" way. Boyd vs. Ballard wins for irony, considering they're the two people with Echo's interests most at heart. Echo helping Boyd as opposed to the random guy she had no personal relationship with whatsoever was a nice touch, especially as Boyd's actually been proven to help her even outside of her conditioned responses towards him. Must have been understandably creepy from Ballard's POV. I found November's return to the Dollhouse remarkably poignant in both how she and her handler played it. Harsh enough for a "real" person, but when your entire personality is created around loving the guy we're talking soul-destroying territory.

I did like that we weren't stuck with Echo's assignment as the A-plot this week; as we have an overarching story going on in the House itself, I think I prefer it when the assignments are treated as business as usual. I saw what they were trying to do with the Briar Rose frame story, though it was a little heavy-handed. One of the reasons I was relieved when it was inverted to apply to someone other than Echo (which I don't count as a spoiler, considering Fox thoughtfully splashed that one across the preview for next week -- oh Fox, how you managed to restrain yourself for this week's is anyone's guess).

This post has been edited by dawnkiller: 02 May 2009 - 07:02 PM

[Sir Thursday]

Thought that was a very good episode - would have been great if I didn't already know who Alpha was, though they almost managed to make me believe it was false info for a while.

Did anyone catch the implication that the doctor is a doll straight off? I noticed Victor/Dominic (That was one incredible piece of acting there from Enver Gjokaj - he completely sold me on the mannerisms to the point at which I was checking to see if they'd done a voiceover or something. He is one fantastic actor) asking for Whisky, which seemed given the naming conventions is probably a doll's name, but I didn't put the pieces together myself until I read some of the speculation on Westeros - if he was actually asking for alcohol, like DeWitt tried to make it seem, then he wouldn't have addressed the doctor. I figure that because of the scars she couldn't be an active any more, so they made her in-house staff instead.

Alpha's early prediction about hands reaching out from under the stairs was very interesting too, I thought. I figure this entire thing was setup by Alpha - after all, he was the one who sent the info on Caroline to Ballard in the first place. But I have to say it shows remarkable prescience to realise that by setting Ballard on the trail, he was going to be able to get inside. Does Alpha have some kind of ability to see the future? While we haven't seen any indication of such paranormal stuff going on thus far, it would explain how he was able to manipulate everything so well...


Sir Thursday

[dawnkiller]

Sir Thursday, on May 2 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Did anyone catch the implication that the doctor is a doll straight off? I noticed Victor/Dominic (That was one incredible piece of acting there from Enver Gjokaj - he completely sold me on the mannerisms to the point at which I was checking to see if they'd done a voiceover or something. He is one fantastic actor) asking for Whisky, which seemed given the naming conventions is probably a doll's name, but I didn't put the pieces together myself until I read some of the speculation on Westeros - if he was actually asking for alcohol, like DeWitt tried to make it seem, then he wouldn't have addressed the doctor. I figure that because of the scars she couldn't be an active any more, so they made her in-house staff instead.

Oo, interesting idea. I'd have to rewatch that scene, because I hadn't thought about it -- but I did always wonder why Alpha had scarred her rather than killed her, as he seemed to have done to most of the others he encountered. If they swapped her out it would have had to be FAST, because I recall the episode where Boyd remembered his introduction to the Dollhouse and the examination of NotFred's dead coworker, a victim of Alpha, and the scene ending with "Can you take him out of my office now?". If you're right, it's possible they preformed the reformatting immediately to compensate for the loss of the original doc, which would have made her not his coworker, but the recipient of his baseline skillset and memories (as per her remembering giving Alpha his initial exam).

It was also mentioned in the ep where Dominic was outed that the doc hadn't left the facility since she'd been attacked. If she is a doll, her lack of socialization would make sense.

(Agreed on Gjokaj -- I saw that scene and thought "Oh, that makes sense. I bet the producers thought 'Hey, we're bringing back Dominic! We'd better use the guy with range!'".)

Quote

Alpha's early prediction about hands reaching out from under the stairs was very interesting too, I thought. I figure this entire thing was setup by Alpha - after all, he was the one who sent the info on Caroline to Ballard in the first place. But I have to say it shows remarkable prescience to realise that by setting Ballard on the trail, he was going to be able to get inside. Does Alpha have some kind of ability to see the future? While we haven't seen any indication of such paranormal stuff going on thus far, it would explain how he was able to manipulate everything so well...

It's been stated that Alpha is a genius -- Topher named him as a guy with the ability to hack into a doll's programming remotely and reset it, ala the art-theft episode. I find it very likely he discovered Ballard was investigating (probably by monitoring his searches, if nothing else) and started skewing events to make use of him. It seems pretty clear he didn't need Ballard to get in on his own, but Ballard did distract Boyd and DeWitt long enough to let him make off with Echo.

I'm still not sure whether he's the one hacking into November and Echo to talk to Ballard, though. It definitely drove Ballard on, but I couldn't figure out why Echo would have said this was their first communication when Ballard asked if the programmer had given him the pic of Caroline. I mean, why lie? Still makes me think there's another factor at work. Feels more like setup for a theoretical future arc.