[Ammanas]

I predict DHouse will return for a second season.

- Ammanas, positive Abyss is a perfect candidate for the Dollhouse

[Dagger]

Ammanas, on May 2 2009, 05:10 PM, said:

I predict DHouse will return for a second season.

- Ammanas, positive Abyss is a perfect candidate for the Dollhouse

Let's hope you're right!

[dawnkiller]

Yep, it's official: Sir Thursday wins at television.

(And I've decided that Alan Tudyk is my favorite Evil Firefly Recyclable ever.)

[Sir Thursday]

dawnkiller, on May 9 2009, 03:04 AM, said:

Yep, it's official: Sir Thursday wins at television.

(And I've decided that Alan Tudyk is my favorite Evil Firefly Recyclable ever.)

Well I can't really take the credit, it was pointed out to me by someone else.

As far as this episode goes, I really didn't like the "And now we have a black president!" line, it felt horrendously out of place. Alpha hating his original self is an interesting idea, and kind of fits with the personality. I did, however, feel that Echo turning out to be a save the day type of person from all those imprints was a little convenient for Caroline. And also that Dushku really isn't a good enough actress for the role - I was wincing at her at times. The episode also didn't really give Ballard the required stimulus to decide to work for the Dollhouse, in my opinion. For someone who loathes the concept as he purportedly does, it seemed a bit odd that he meekly decided to help them the way he did.

Apart from that, I really enjoyed the episode. The Topher/Whiskey scenes were great, and I liked the interaction between Boyd and Ballard. Alan Tudyk did an excellent job of Alpha, personality shifts and everything. I also thought the actress they got to play Caroline was pretty good. We've still got Alpha out there to cause mayhem next season, Ballard is going to have to learn to adapt to working for the Dollhouse, and I expect Whiskey/Dr. Saunders to be more prominent next season, which should be good. Overall, if they do decide to renew (and I really hope they do), I'm very hopeful that next season will entertain me greatly. Especially if they don't lapse back into Echo's adventure of the week storylines.

Oh, and I liked the Firefly mention they dropped in there, it was nicely done .


Sir Thursday

This post has been edited by Sir Thursday: 09 May 2009 - 05:00 PM

[dawnkiller]

Sir Thursday, on May 9 2009, 11:59 AM, said:

As far as this episode goes, I really didn't like the "And now we have a black president!" line, it felt horrendously out of place. Alpha hating his original self is an interesting idea, and kind of fits with the personality. I did, however, feel that Echo turning out to be a save the day type of person from all those imprints was a little convenient for Caroline. And also that Dushku really isn't a good enough actress for the role - I was wincing at her at times. The episode also didn't really give Ballard the required stimulus to decide to work for the Dollhouse, in my opinion. For someone who loathes the concept as he purportedly does, it seemed a bit odd that he meekly decided to help them the way he did.

Re: The "Echo turning out to be a save-the-day type of person" thing: I don't believe that the imprints had anything to do with who the Composite Echo turned out to be, and that was one of the points of the episode. Echo said of the imprints "I can slip into one...no, they slip into me...", implying that there is an underlying person there that doesn't change despite the identity-shifts. The same was implied to be true of Alpha: even wiped, he echoed things from his old life -- the power plant, the mutilation of faces, etc. Although getting 48 personalities crammed in there couldn't have helped, I don't think this is because of any of the personalities he ended up with, but because Alpha was morally if not mentally unbalanced before he ever stepped into the Dollhouse. Caroline was not, and therein lay the difference between them. So, um . . . probably the Dollhouse shouldn't grab from felons anymore.

I did sort of wonder at why Ballard hooked up with them (felt like maybe there was a scene missing), unless it's because he plans on running his own game in hopes that he can take them down from the inside. However, I did really enjoy his interaction with Boyd, and was gratified he bargained for November rather than Echo. Considering how coldly he'd been treating her in favor of a chick he didn't even know, even deigning not to save her in the last ep, it was a nice bit of character-save.

I wonder what Whiskey was like in the field -- I'd sort of like to see that, since a handler remarked that she was "a bad influence" on Alpha, and lord only knows how that dynamic works out. It was also cool to find out she used to be #1 most requested -- helped my urge to eyeroll at the remarks that Echo was the most popular earlier in the seasons. I also want to know why Topher programmed her with hate...even before this he did seem to avoid her when he could, and it seems a little more uncomfortable than just "I made this person." He was fully capable of enjoying an active's company on his birthday. I wonder if he had some kind of personal connection with her, or if it was something as simple as guilt that someone totally defenseless was hurt in the house for what he believed to be a programming error on his part.

[Sixty]

I enjoyed the season finale, to say the least. I liked the first half much better than the second half...tbh the ending didn't feel as if it really "made sense" if you understand--what would motivate Ballard to suddenly become buddies with DeWitt and the rest of the Dollhouse? =/

Eagerly awaiting a second season with fingers crossed.

[Lisheo]

INteresting season finale... Though I personally didn't like the whole "Echo-being-a-fundamentally-better-person-than-Alpha" thing... It just made Alpha seem like the cliched evil serial killer type; that along with his comment about killing all the Carolines he would make just made him completely irredeemable in my eyes. I loved the flashbacks of him and Echo, though. It mimicked Victor and Sierra, in a way, which I think could turn interesting...

[dawnkiller]

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

INteresting season finale... Though I personally didn't like the whole "Echo-being-a-fundamentally-better-person-than-Alpha" thing... It just made Alpha seem like the cliched evil serial killer type; that along with his comment about killing all the Carolines he would make just made him completely irredeemable in my eyes. I loved the flashbacks of him and Echo, though. It mimicked Victor and Sierra, in a way, which I think could turn interesting...

Yeah, I really dug the parallels with Victor and Sierra -- and the difference between how a stable person handles it and how someone who was a little off-center would handle it, even wiped. To my knowledge, Victor never tried to kiss Sierra, and was outright confused about his sexual reactions. Alpha, on the other hand, went right for the makeout. (Also, did anyone else notice his victim was also a brunette, like Echo? I wondered if one of the factors at work there was he subconsciously noted Echo fit victimology.)

As for Alpha's baseline being cracked, I don't know, even though the entire series seems to be "Echo is the Specialist One" I like to entertain thoughts that someone like Victor, who seemed pretty level-headed in the ep they all reverted to their original personalities, would also have handled it as well as Echo did. I'm sort of sad Alpha broke the record of his original personality, because it reduces the possibility of learning why he is like he is. The fact he destroyed it at all, though, may say something in itself...

(The repeated Caroline-killing was pretty harsh, though. Someone needs rejection counseling.)

[Lisheo]

dawnkiller, on May 10 2009, 08:10 PM, said:

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

INteresting season finale... Though I personally didn't like the whole "Echo-being-a-fundamentally-better-person-than-Alpha" thing... It just made Alpha seem like the cliched evil serial killer type; that along with his comment about killing all the Carolines he would make just made him completely irredeemable in my eyes. I loved the flashbacks of him and Echo, though. It mimicked Victor and Sierra, in a way, which I think could turn interesting...

Yeah, I really dug the parallels with Victor and Sierra -- and the difference between how a stable person handles it and how someone who was a little off-center would handle it, even wiped. To my knowledge, Victor never tried to kiss Sierra, and was outright confused about his sexual reactions. Alpha, on the other hand, went right for the makeout. (Also, did anyone else notice his victim was also a brunette, like Echo? I wondered if one of the factors at work there was he subconsciously noted Echo fit victimology.)

As for Alpha's baseline being cracked, I don't know, even though the entire series seems to be "Echo is the Specialist One" I like to entertain thoughts that someone like Victor, who seemed pretty level-headed in the ep they all reverted to their original personalities, would also have handled it as well as Echo did. I'm sort of sad Alpha broke the record of his original personality, because it reduces the possibility of learning why he is like he is. The fact he destroyed it at all, though, may say something in itself...

(The repeated Caroline-killing was pretty harsh, though. Someone needs rejection counseling.)

The whole destroying his personiality thing, to me, suggested that his old personality was going to be nothing like what he was now; but nope, apparently not.
I dunno... I just think the unstableness was a bit of a cop-out; he's been this mysterious person behind the scenes for an entire series, a genius with seemingly infinite abilities, but they settled on the "insane and evil". Kinda hoped he'd be someone like the Operative in Serenity, fighting for some percieved higher cause or something.

The same can be said about Whisky, actually... Hmmm.

Victor is just bad ass, though. When he regains his personality, he takes it upon himself to help out Sierra, which I thought was awesome. I guess Victor and Sierra are becoming what Alpha and Echo COULD have been. Had he been sane and such lol.

[dawnkiller]

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

The whole destroying his personiality thing, to me, suggested that his old personality was going to be nothing like what he was now; but nope, apparently not.
I dunno... I just think the unstableness was a bit of a cop-out; he's been this mysterious person behind the scenes for an entire series, a genius with seemingly infinite abilities, but they settled on the "insane and evil". Kinda hoped he'd be someone like the Operative in Serenity, fighting for some percieved higher cause or something.

The same can be said about Whisky, actually... Hmmm.

I think by destroying his original personality he was trying to do exactly as you said -- eliminate who he was before he was "ascended" (while, perhaps, subconsciously trying to destroy something in his past or self...dunno). However, since a prevailing theme in the series is that you can subtract as many memories as you want, there are some fundamental aspects that do not change, I felt that was fitting. And, because Alpha no longer has that original imprint to compare himself to, he'll never know how much of himself is "ascended" and how much is the remnants of his original personality. Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it and such.

Of course, there's nothing to say Alpha won't keep evolving. He may be unstable now, but considering he's got the wherewithal to create an evil lair and mimic the technology of the Dollhouse his MO might become more sophisticated over time. Whedon's certainly gone that route before. (And if Alpha had any precurser, I'd say it was Jubal Early.)

Whiskey is rather mysterious. How much is her, and how much is what was programmed in. She clearly surprised Topher by not opening her own file beyond confirming she was a doll, and she stated "I know who I am." The scene was followed by her distributing lollipops like the original Saunders had, so it's up in the air which "who" she was really referring to. So far I think the only scene we might be able to take as her original self's thoughts would be her "you're ugly" tirade at Victor. Echo wants to right wrongs, apparently. Maybe Whiskey's more the sort who's content to be of use and have purpose, even if it's only one that was given to her.

[Lisheo]

dawnkiller, on May 10 2009, 08:47 PM, said:

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

The whole destroying his personiality thing, to me, suggested that his old personality was going to be nothing like what he was now; but nope, apparently not.
I dunno... I just think the unstableness was a bit of a cop-out; he's been this mysterious person behind the scenes for an entire series, a genius with seemingly infinite abilities, but they settled on the "insane and evil". Kinda hoped he'd be someone like the Operative in Serenity, fighting for some percieved higher cause or something.

The same can be said about Whisky, actually... Hmmm.

I think by destroying his original personality he was trying to do exactly as you said -- eliminate who he was before he was "ascended" (while, perhaps, subconsciously trying to destroy something in his past or self...dunno). However, since a prevailing theme in the series is that you can subtract as many memories as you want, there are some fundamental aspects that do not change, I felt that was fitting. And, because Alpha no longer has that original imprint to compare himself to, he'll never know how much of himself is "ascended" and how much is the remnants of his original personality. Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it and such.

Of course, there's nothing to say Alpha won't keep evolving. He may be unstable now, but considering he's got the wherewithal to create an evil lair and mimic the technology of the Dollhouse his MO might become more sophisticated over time. Whedon's certainly gone that route before. (And if Alpha had any precurser, I'd say it was Jubal Early.)

Whiskey is rather mysterious. How much is her, and how much is what was programmed in. She clearly surprised Topher by not opening her own file beyond confirming she was a doll, and she stated "I know who I am." The scene was followed by her distributing lollipops like the original Saunders had, so it's up in the air which "who" she was really referring to. So far I think the only scene we might be able to take as her original self's thoughts would be her "you're ugly" tirade at Victor. Echo wants to right wrongs, apparently. Maybe Whiskey's more the sort who's content to be of use and have purpose, even if it's only one that was given to her.

Damn, but I loved Early; he was awesome. And thinking on it, the scene where he is shown laughing/crying/screaming in quick succession is similar to Alpha's personalities...
I was quite impressed by the Evil Lair, mind you. I wonder if he will make a new one. One thing I'm worried about is Alpha might now start fixating on killing Echo, which would annoy me just a little.

I would assume that she has Saunder's mind scanned into her, hence her taking the name, and Toper programmed her to hate him bacause her scars and such are, in a way, his fault?
Actually, Topher said something interesting when he did the scan thing on Alpha. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something that made me wonder was Alpha's accident really an accident, or Topher's doing.

[dawnkiller]

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

Damn, but I loved Early; he was awesome. And thinking on it, the scene where he is shown laughing/crying/screaming in quick succession is similar to Alpha's personalities...
I was quite impressed by the Evil Lair, mind you. I wonder if he will make a new one. One thing I'm worried about is Alpha might now start fixating on killing Echo, which would annoy me just a little.

I would assume that she has Saunder's mind scanned into her, hence her taking the name, and Toper programmed her to hate him bacause her scars and such are, in a way, his fault?
Actually, Topher said something interesting when he did the scan thing on Alpha. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something that made me wonder was Alpha's accident really an accident, or Topher's doing.

Topher said something along the lines of wanting to run back through every program he'd ever used on Alpha because there was a chance something got left over -- a few neurons not fired, or something. Actually, now that I think about it, when Ballard kept asking for Alpha's original file Topher seemed almost pathologically insistent that it couldn't be that, it had to be one of the created personalities. So yeah . . . I think Topher does blame himself. Especially so if he'd been at all friendly with Saunders 1.0. However, the nature of the attack on Whiskey -- echoing Alpha's attack on his former victim -- indicates the expression, if not the act itself, was definitely taken from his old life.

I also hope that Alpha branches out beyond Must Kill Echo. He needs to go meditate in Tibet and find a higher calling or something.

(Also, who the hell ordered a scenario that demanded knowledge of Nietsche?)

[Lisheo]

dawnkiller, on May 10 2009, 09:18 PM, said:

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

Damn, but I loved Early; he was awesome. And thinking on it, the scene where he is shown laughing/crying/screaming in quick succession is similar to Alpha's personalities...
I was quite impressed by the Evil Lair, mind you. I wonder if he will make a new one. One thing I'm worried about is Alpha might now start fixating on killing Echo, which would annoy me just a little.

I would assume that she has Saunder's mind scanned into her, hence her taking the name, and Toper programmed her to hate him bacause her scars and such are, in a way, his fault?
Actually, Topher said something interesting when he did the scan thing on Alpha. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something that made me wonder was Alpha's accident really an accident, or Topher's doing.

Topher said something along the lines of wanting to run back through every program he'd ever used on Alpha because there was a chance something got left over -- a few neurons not fired, or something. Actually, now that I think about it, when Ballard kept asking for Alpha's original file Topher seemed almost pathologically insistent that it couldn't be that, it had to be one of the created personalities. So yeah . . . I think Topher does blame himself. Especially so if he'd been at all friendly with Saunders 1.0. However, the nature of the attack on Whiskey -- echoing Alpha's attack on his former victim -- indicates the expression, if not the act itself, was definitely taken from his old life.

I also hope that Alpha branches out beyond Must Kill Echo. He needs to go meditate in Tibet and find a higher calling or something.

(Also, who the hell ordered a scenario that demanded knowledge of Nietsche?)

No, it's right before he runs the scan. Might check it up again; I'm a little suspicious of Topher now.
But at the moment I do think Topher blames himself. Despite being a little sociopathic, I get the feeling he views the Actives as his nephews and nieces or something.

[dawnkiller]

Lisheo, on May 10 2009, 03:22 PM, said:

No, it's right before he runs the scan. Might check it up again; I'm a little suspicious of Topher now.
But at the moment I do think Topher blames himself. Despite being a little sociopathic, I get the feeling he views the Actives as his nephews and nieces or something.

If you find it, do share. (I know you can get the eps online, but my computer has a tendency to choke on them. DVD with that last ep, I guess . . .)

And yeah, Topher is just a little bit of a sociopath, or at least a little on the far side of amoral. However, he strikes me as a perfectionist in his way, and prideful as well -- there's a lot of dialogue indicating he sees what he's doing as a type of art. To perceive one of them misfire that fatally must have been crushing.

[Sir Thursday]

Good News!

Although I think I'd have preferred it if they'd renewed Terminator instead...


Sir Thursday

[Slum]

Yay! More great show! And more Eliza Dushku. I don't care what you guys think, that girl is sexytime!

[Sir Thursday]

Slumgullion Spitteler, on May 16 2009, 02:14 AM, said:

Yay! More great show! And more Eliza Dushku. I don't care what you guys think, that girl is sexytime!

Oh, no arguments on the sexytime . She just doesn't have as good an acting range as Enver Gjokaj or Dichen Lachmann.


Sir Thursday

[drinksinbars]

think it was a choice of one or the other but not both and the dollhouse probably has a lower budget with no terminators or post apocolypse scenes.

[Abyss]

Terminator was really killing me towards the end. I'm happy they decided to give DH another chance (and perfectly contant to have been wrong about the cancellation). Hopefully Joss can get it out of its slump and into hit tv.

Finally saw the finale. It was... weak. Sure there were a few high points, but the whole 'do as i say or i'll shoot this computer thingy' was silly; having Sierra and November go all bounty hunter but then not show up even again was a waste, and while having Caroline argue with 'herself' should have been a neat touch, i found myself watching the screen thinking 'this is SUCH a stretch'. Ballard was phoning it in - after being a solid performer for any number of scenes of 'i. must. find. the. evil. EVIL. dollhouse.' angst, suddenly he's all "wow, you guys sure screwed up, hey, let me help you out!". The Whiskey reveal was nicely done, and Tudyk did a decent job as Alpha - "I don't have multiple personalities. I have 48 DISTINCT personalities. Okay, one of them has multiple personalities, but STILL...!".

- Abyss, ...will cross fingers and hope for a better second season.

[Sixty]

I just watched the unaired episode 13 last night and...damn. If this is where the series is going, season 2 is going to be the shit.

edit:

And from the unaired pilot, it was essentially the plot of the first 3-4 episodes put together into one. Much much better imo.

This post has been edited by Sixty: 20 July 2009 - 10:15 PM