[Sixty]

I love how quotable this show is. From the last ep (paraphrasing here):

"Hey, this would be pretty cool for some guys. You know, just two guys, checking each other out, and then afterward one of them forgets. That'd be pretty cool, right?"

And then the girl just looks at him.

[Abyss]

Those street interview were priceless, esp that one.

- Abyss, ...*sings* if i had a million dollars....

[Sir Thursday]

Another great episode, even if the premise is a little overused on SF TV shows. But I really liked the information we got about Rossom. The show seems to be developing into more of an ensemble cast as opposed to Dushku + Random other people, which makes for a much more entertaining show. But I had lots of laughs, there was a nice twist, and it ended with some nice information about how one becomes an active. And if a TV show contains the line:

"Oh My God! I find lentils completely incomprehensible!" I can't help but love it.


Sir Thursday

[Sixty]

Yeah I have to agree, the last episode was pretty good. A couple jokes were forced, but I actually found myself laughing aloud once or twice...that's pretty good (for a drama/action or whatever the hell they call it).

What did bother me was that I confused Dominic (the douchebag handler or whatever) with the

Spoiler

rapist dude

. Didn't they work with the same doll?

This post has been edited by Sixty: 28 March 2009 - 04:30 PM

[Sir Thursday]

Sixty, on Mar 28 2009, 04:29 PM, said:

Yeah I have to agree, the last episode was pretty good. A couple jokes were forced, but I actually found myself laughing aloud once or twice...that's pretty good (for a drama/action or whatever the hell they call it).

What did bother me was that I confused Dominic (the douchebag handler or whatever) with the

Spoiler

rapist dude

. Didn't they work with the same doll?

I don't think Dominic is ever a handler - seems like he is entrusted with Dollhouse security and is some kind of lieutenant for DeWitt. Just happened to be working with the dolls on this one.


Sir Thursday

[Sixty]

Ah I see. I guess that makes sense.

[Abyss]

Altho not as strong as the previous week's ep, i enjoyed this one too.

Dominic is the head of security. He was involved in the lock-down because Rossom itself wanted the entire Dollhouse in on it. Sierra's handler was Hearn, who got killed by Ballard's Doll gf/neighbor.

Active Viktor pwning Dominic's authority was fun.

Unfortunately the ratings are in a downslide ( see http://tvbythenumbers.com ) and while we're likely to see the entire 13 eps produced this season, renewal isn't looking good. Pity really. This show in a lineup with FRINGE would have been tv most strong.

- Abyss, also has a stash of entirely inappropriate carbs...

[Sixty]

Just finished watching the last episode...was damn good.
Hoping we have a shot at a second season, but I don't think it's very likely.

[Sir Thursday]

I didn't enjoy this one, which is a shame, because I really wanted to. But it just felt like the rapport between the cast that had been developing over the past couple of episodes was gone. We were back to the awkward, slightly off delivery of the first few episodes. The concept was an interesting one, but leads to another gripe: why, given that the dolls are going to change from personality to personality from week to week and thus never get the time to develop their own characters, is introducing their backstory more important than those of the Dollhouse staff? I'd be far more interested in what drove Dr. Saunders and Boyd to work in a place like this, or what that higher goal is that allows DeWitt to justify what she's doing than finding out that the person who became November had a child who died, or that the person who is now Sierra was pressganged into service by an annoyed rich ex.


Sir Thursday

[Sixty]

I imagine it's mostly to open up the possibility of allowing a normal personality / inserted personality sort of conflict. If there are really only going to be 13 episodes, I imagine the plot has to get moving, fast.

[dawnkiller]

Oh man, someplace to talk about Dollhouse! Man, I was pining -- even though I was pretty lukewarm about the first 3 or 4 episodes. It's been a little patchy in places, but generally it's getting interesting. Which is too bad, because I don't have huge hopes for it being sustained. Joss, why do you keep going back to FOX? I don't care how much it says it loves you, it treats you so bad.

Sir Thursday, on Apr 5 2009, 04:21 PM, said:

I didn't enjoy this one, which is a shame, because I really wanted to. But it just felt like the rapport between the cast that had been developing over the past couple of episodes was gone. We were back to the awkward, slightly off delivery of the first few episodes. The concept was an interesting one, but leads to another gripe: why, given that the dolls are going to change from personality to personality from week to week and thus never get the time to develop their own characters, is introducing their backstory more important than those of the Dollhouse staff? I'd be far more interested in what drove Dr. Saunders and Boyd to work in a place like this, or what that higher goal is that allows DeWitt to justify what she's doing than finding out that the person who became November had a child who died, or that the person who is now Sierra was pressganged into service by an annoyed rich ex.

I'd disagree that their former personalities mean nothing, especially since we have repeatedly seen evidence there are certain constants regardless (Echo, even wiped, contradicting her handler's instructions -- at least twice now; Victor being attracted to and protective of Sierra even when they're both blanked, etc). Practically, I think it was also an attempt at Whedon to spare the audience some of the pain that happened when Firefly was cancelled -- we never did find out the deal with several characters, so this episode, at least, will ensure we've got a little of it even if the thing gets canned (which I suspect Whedon is anticipating).

I was kind of pissed at Sierra's position, though -- her character appears to have been a victim of sexual abuse before and after joining the Dollhouse, which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Her being "forced" into it by that guy also seems to be rather contrary to what DeWitt, at least, believes to be the point: to spare people from things they can't live with, and helping others in the course of this. What, did she reason that if Sierra's going to be raped it's better it be during an engagement she won't remember? I'm cool with the moral grey here (we've seen engagements of all sorts, skeevy and otherwise), but I'm not really into the character type of Perpetual Victim. (Also, Norman or whoever was so generically Eville my eyes almost rolled right out of my head.)

I would like to see how the hell Boyd ended up working at this place, however. He doesn't seem happy about it.

Dominic isn't gunning for DeWitt's job. He's just totally into her.

And lentils ARE incomprehensible.

[Abyss]

dawnkiller, on Apr 5 2009, 09:02 PM, said:

...Dominic isn't gunning for DeWitt's job. He's just totally into her.

And lentils ARE incomprehensible.

I dunno - the end of the'crazy' ep suggested there was a scene that wasn't shot or was editted out where those two had a moment but for whatever reason Dom was over at the uni with the dolls so their little denoument didn't really make much sense, and he's been undermining her by trying to kill Echo, and questioning her judgment repeatedly.

And don'tt rust the lentils. Alpha is behind them.


I didn't like this recent ep very much. It felt like three eps worth of development were shoehorned into one moreorless standalone ep. There were some neat bits like when they woke up and tried to fake still being wiped, or Victor going all in charge, but honestly, we are getting beat over the head with Sierra-is-a-helpless-victim, and Echo going back and everything that followed in made little sense, regardless of the ending.

This show can't afford to have weak eps right now. The ratings for the next four eps basically determine its future.

Joss keeps going back to Fox because Fox keeps throwing money at Joss to make tv, and the unfortunate reality is that no one else in networkland is willing to do that. The flipside of that is that Fox has a plethora of 'reality tv' junk shows that are cheap to produce, pull in more viewers (even in rerun) than most drama shows, and give the advertisers their daily ratingsgasm.

BUFFY pulled in a good audience but it predated the economic squeeze and narrowly the realiTV tsunami. ANGEL coasted off Buffy and barely survived one season once that show wrapped. FIREFLY was a ratings failure that pulled in few new viewers and didn't hold onto the Buffy crowd that was jonesing for another teen-angst-sf/fantasy-actioner fix. Joss is still trying to create 'mythology' dense shows in their first season. This is a mistake, imnsho - watch a first season BUFFY ep and with the exception of a couple of two-parters, everything you need to know is in the first ten minutes tops - 'teenage girl is Slayer, kills monsters with friends, go!'. Come up with a one-liner for Firfly that works - i defy you. 'Western wagons in space', what Joss relied on more or less, left too many wtfs...'what do you mean, wagons in space? why is it the old west in space? why are they in space? didn't the old west have horses and indians and stuff? are there indians in space?... look, i watched Firefly and i understood Joss' concept... there were other things that made me bail. But i'm not the audience he needed and didn't get.

The trick with mainstream genre tv is to give people enuf self-contained eps in your first season that anyone can jump in any time and want to come back. ALIAS ('double-agent spy girl dresses up hawt, kicks dudes') managed this in its first season. FRINGE ('american agents vs mad scientists') is pulling it off. Sure, now and then you get a BSG or LOST that can be plot-dense but still draw viewers, but those are the exceptions. BSG had a huge name recognition factor that drew in the sf hordes. LOST got away with a sheer level of 'wtf can they do next???' in its first season, immense internutz exposure and hawt people on a beach every ep.

Which brings us back to DOLLHOUSE... we have the hawties, but the one-liner isn't being nailed... 'brainwashed all purpose hawties'? 'evil corporation mindwipes young people, sends them out to have sex with billionaires'... you can't walk into any given ep and figure it out. I like it, i'll keep watching it, but i don't think enuf other people are.


- Abyss, industry watcher.

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on Apr 6 2009, 10:07 AM, said:

I dunno - the end of the'crazy' ep suggested there was a scene that wasn't shot or was editted out where those two had a moment but for whatever reason Dom was over at the uni with the dolls so their little denoument didn't really make much sense, and he's been undermining her by trying to kill Echo, and questioning her judgment repeatedly.

Re: Echo: I think he's just jealous. And practically speaking, DeWitt appears to have a personal attachment to Karoline which is surely a bad thing for the boss to have. (Agreed about the probability of a missing scene though.)

Quote

I didn't like this recent ep very much. It felt like three eps worth of development were shoehorned into one moreorless standalone ep. There were some neat bits like when they woke up and tried to fake still being wiped, or Victor going all in charge, but honestly, we are getting beat over the head with Sierra-is-a-helpless-victim, and Echo going back and everything that followed in made little sense, regardless of the ending.

Like I said, not a fan of Sierra being victimized. I know you're not supposed to be, but it feels so . . . generic. I'm not engaged. I'm also not that fond of Karoline as a person (when we've seen her as herself), but eh. The three-eps-worth thing is also valid. Again, I think he's struggling with pacing issues -- trying to find a balance. It's just not working yet, and I think that's the main danger for Dollhouse right now. He's trying to serve two masters and pleasing neither.

Regarding target audiences, I really disliked the first season of Buffy because of its episodic nature -- I couldn't get into it until the arcs were happening. Of course, I also generally dislike shows about teens, so I'm not exactly the target audience. (I also was originally so underwhelmed with the Western premise of Firefly that I didn't even watch, but someone sent me a tape of all eps in order and the cast dynamic won me over.) However, your observation on charging right into the mythology is a point. I almost think Dollhouse would have been better as a miniseries -- he wouldn't have to waste time with establishing tone or whatever, just dive right on in and work with the story meatz. The BBC's excellent miniseries "Jeykll" is a good example.

[Sixty]

Well looks like you guys got some nice plot development with the latest ep. I'm not really interested in overanalyzing--I guess when it comes to TV, I'm the same brainless idiot they target. When it comes to pretty much anything other than books, I don't pay much attention to the plot and just want to be entertained.

[dawnkiller]

I majored in English. As such, academia has prepared me for an existence in which I can't not analyze things.

(Still, DeWitt's subplot cracked me up. Did anyone else find that profoundly creepy/sad/creepy again? Holy conflict of interest, Batman!)

[Sir Thursday]

Well I thought that was a great episode. This was what I wanted to see - I wanted development of the people who work at the Dollhouse, and I wanted a few answers, which is exactly what they delivered. The Victor - DeWitt thing was great, as was the Ballard - November. I totally didn't see the Dominic thing coming - loved the twist that the mole they found was actually trying to keep the Dollhouse in business. That episode really was jam-packed, and I can see why they moved it forward to try and get people to watch. Just hope the reordering doesn't spoil anything...I'm guessing we'll see Dominic in the next ep right as rain.

Seems very obvious that Ivy is the one imprinting the dolls with the messages - she was the one doing the greeting for Echo, and it was quite obvious from the start that she wasn't quite right. Having said that, I'd have expected her to be better at lying if she was the mole - that line about being able to reconfigure everything by herself is not something someone who was trying to maintain their cover would say.

Oh, and the concept of the attic is pretty damn creepy. I thought the way they played that attic-imprinting scene was pretty good, although the contrast between Dominic sitting calmly in the van talking to Echo and Dominic in the chair struggling with all his might was a bit jarring.

I'm most pleased with the development of DeWitt's character - how she does feel the pressure and the strain of managing the Dollhouse, how it eats at her inside. That I found very interesting. And the guy playing Victor wins the Most Convincing Doll Award - he always gets me to believe in whatever role he currently has, which is more than I can say for Sierra, Echo and November (although Sierra isn't too bad).


Sir Thursday

[Abyss]

I enjoyed this ep. I don't know that it got the show any new viewers but i enjoyed it.

The Dominic twist wasn't a huge revelation - it was pretty clear he was going to betray dewitt SOMEhow, but nice twist that he's trying to 'save' the D'House. And we're totally going to see him again. I liked that Boyd was promoted and yet unhappy about Echo getting a new handler.

I like how there's a re-occuring rivalry between Sierra and Echo - they keep being pulled into the same missions and 'competing'.

The November/Nellie reveal to Ballard was awesome, and i liked Dominic's comment that one day, Echo is going to wipe them all.

Am i the only one who thought there was a suggestion that Dewitt is a doll - Vic's comment that if he were to 'build' the perfect woman, it would be her, and later 'you're a real piece of work' 'yes, apprently'.... i could be overreading but i thought the suggestion was there.


- Abyss, ....or AM i...?

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on Apr 14 2009, 09:34 AM, said:

Am i the only one who thought there was a suggestion that Dewitt is a doll - Vic's comment that if he were to 'build' the perfect woman, it would be her, and later 'you're a real piece of work' 'yes, apprently'.... i could be overreading but i thought the suggestion was there.

I actually thought that was to show why DeWitt seems weirdly attached to the dolls (especially Echo) -- in a way, she herself feels like she's no different than they are, needing to play whatever part is required of her by the company. The difference is she's got to live through the experience; no convenient mindwipes or personality reformatting to make her not mind it.

Plus, it was gloriously creepy/sad that DeWitt was using Victor, whom she saw every day, as her personal escort. I get that he's tabula rasa, but you'd think all those conversations about how much he loves banana pancakes would be a libido-killer. Truly desperation knows no bounds.

As for Dominic, I did enjoy that -- though while they snagged the NSA spy, I don't think that's going to get rid of the mole they've got overriding imprints. Dominic doesn't seem to have the technical know-how, and why he would have been sending messages to Ballard that kept stringing him along is beyond me.

Meanwhile, poor Ballard now has the world's most uncomfortable relationship to look forward to. "Why aren't you kissing me?"

[Sixty]

Just finished the latest ep, and it doesn't seem they moved the overall plot forward much. But the premise of the episode itself was pretty intriguing in and of itself.
That, and the Tofer/Sierra scenes were rather entertaining.

[Nicodimas]

My only gripe about this show is I always seem detached from all the characters. It may be a season one thing that the characters haven't adopted there characters quite yet, but it bugs me. Anyone else getting this vibe?

I love the show and am looking forward to Alpha next week