[Werthead]

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 27 2009, 02:53 AM, said:

To me, they are endings that are purposefully mysterious for the sole reason as to create suspense as to what has happened. I don't see any of that in MBotF.

It sounds suspiciously like double-standards to me, like when Jordan gets wailed on for extending his series from 6 to 14 books but Erikson and Esslemont get a pass for going from 10 to 22. If GRRM does it, it's a dirty cliffhanger, but if SE does it it's a clear shelving of closed narrative lines which may or may not be picked up again later. Hmm.

Have you considered going into politics?

Quote

I have yet to see an actual classic cliff-hanger in this series.

Well, the end of RotCG is a clear classic cliffhanger:

Spoiler

Iron Bars is being taken off to the Stormwall by moustachio-twirling villains. Oh nos! Okay, it's not much of a cliffhanger as he only got overcome by circumstances and once back to full strength they're probably not going to have much luck holding an Avowed against his will, but still, it's a cliffhanger meant to make the audience go, "What's going to happen next?"

[Aptorian]

But the counter argument to your argument, Wert, would be that ICE's books are a seperate series of books, if you can even call it that.

The Malazan Books were from book three heading towards a finale featuring the Crippled God. Erikson has at least stayed true to that. The Main series has not been expanded, some of the sub plots have just been given room to branch out into other series outside of the MBOTF.

[Slick Mongoose]

Aptorian, on Jun 27 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

But the counter argument to your argument, Wert, would be that ICE's books are a seperate series of books, if you can even call it that.

The Malazan Books were from book three heading towards a finale featuring the Crippled God. Erikson has at least stayed true to that. The Main series has not been expanded, some of the sub plots have just been given room to branch out into other series outside of the MBOTF.

Maybe it's something GRRM should consider? If he sticks to the wall and the Others he'll be done in another year or so, i'm sure. Then he can get someone else to cover the subplots.

[Werthead]

Aptorian, on Jun 27 2009, 12:54 PM, said:

But the counter argument to your argument, Wert, would be that ICE's books are a seperate series of books, if you can even call it that.

The Malazan Books were from book three heading towards a finale featuring the Crippled God. Erikson has at least stayed true to that. The Main series has not been expanded, some of the sub plots have just been given room to branch out into other series outside of the MBOTF.

Right. Because Karsa Orlong's story which has been a major part of four books so far is not a major storyline in the series and is 'just a subplot'.

[Aptorian]

Well, lets wait and see what DOD and TCG brings. If Karsa shows up and full fills his destiny to break the CGs chains or kill him in the process, then the characters story is justified. If we don't see Karsa again before some future ICE novel, then I'll agree, there's something wrong.

[blackzoid]

A Storm of Swords took 2 years to write and is (presumably) considered the best of the Song of Fire and Ice books?
Yet books which have taken 4 years by GRRM are considered to be more polished in comparison to SE's yearish written books?

Perhaps there is something to be said for just going for it and worrying about editing the book when it is finished as a whole instead of going over each chapter/pov when it is finished. I wonder if self-doubt is an issue for Martin.

And on SE's "declining" quality, the full Neil Gaiman quote was:
"It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time."
http://journal.neilg...ent-issues.html
This article is used to defend GRRM but not SE? Seems unfair to me. Surely SE is not anybody elses bitch too?

Also If Karsa's story was finished whats the big deal? Assail and the Karsa story show that the Crippled God storyline does not encompass the entire Malazan World. Whats the problem with those storylines dropping in and out?
I'm sick of fantasy stories where everything is decided in the main sequence and life afterwards is now going to be perfect for ever. I remember SE said in some interview somewhere that the Malazan story was just a snapshot of the worlds history. For a snapshot to work, you cannot finish all storylines at the same time. And I'm sure, when ICE or SE finish Karsa and Assail, there will be other new major storylines mentioned that will get no resolution.

[wolf_2099]

Werthead, on Jun 27 2009, 05:21 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on Jun 27 2009, 02:53 AM, said:

To me, they are endings that are purposefully mysterious for the sole reason as to create suspense as to what has happened. I don't see any of that in MBotF.

It sounds suspiciously like double-standards to me, like when Jordan gets wailed on for extending his series from 6 to 14 books but Erikson and Esslemont get a pass for going from 10 to 22. If GRRM does it, it's a dirty cliffhanger, but if SE does it it's a clear shelving of closed narrative lines which may or may not be picked up again later. Hmm.

Have you considered going into politics?

I think the big point here is the difference between leaving threads dangling at the end of story, or during the story to lead into future novels and series being planned, like Erikson does. He still maintains the larger scheme of the book, and gives them a solid conclusion at the end. The book feels like a solid narrative, even if it does tie into many other books, and leaves some unanswered questions.

While GRRM doesn't finish the storyline in the book. He has left blatant cliiffhangers, with no real feeling of conclusion to the book.

I think Karsa fits somewhere in between, which isn't all that fair, especially since GRRM series will hopefully wrap up all the ends, meanwhile Karsa is left dangling. If Karsa is done in the Crippled God plotline though, so be it.


I think however we seem to be missing a big point. These are series of books, meant to tell a whole story, none of the books are really meant to be taken on there own.

Would you watch an episode (or even a season) of the Wire, and complain about it not making sense, dropped plot lines, character disappearing, when you haven't seen the rest of the series?

[lobo the wolfman]

blackzoid, on Jun 30 2009, 04:13 AM, said:

A Storm of Swords took 2 years to write and is (presumably) considered the best of the Song of Fire and Ice books?
Yet books which have taken 4 years by GRRM are considered to be more polished in comparison to SE's yearish written books?

Perhaps there is something to be said for just going for it and worrying about editing the book when it is finished as a whole instead of going over each chapter/pov when it is finished. I wonder if self-doubt is an issue for Martin.

And on SE's "declining" quality, the full Neil Gaiman quote was:
"It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time."
http://journal.neilg...ent-issues.html
This article is used to defend GRRM but not SE? Seems unfair to me. Surely SE is not anybody elses bitch too?

Also If Karsa's story was finished whats the big deal? Assail and the Karsa story show that the Crippled God storyline does not encompass the entire Malazan World. Whats the problem with those storylines dropping in and out?
I'm sick of fantasy stories where everything is decided in the main sequence and life afterwards is now going to be perfect for ever. I remember SE said in some interview somewhere that the Malazan story was just a snapshot of the worlds history. For a snapshot to work, you cannot finish all storylines at the same time. And I'm sure, when ICE or SE finish Karsa and Assail, there will be other new major storylines mentioned that will get no resolution.

The deal with Karsa (if indeed SE finished with him in the main story) is that out of 8 books in the series so far, he has been a dominant character in 4 of them. To leave his character out of the main plot line now is just silly, i mean if that's the case SE might as well not put him in the books at all. I have no problem with there being side plots and characters coming and going, but to leave a major player behind for a co-author to right about, especially after building him up is a bit of a cop out.

[Werthead]

lobo the wolfman, on Jun 29 2009, 11:17 PM, said:

The deal with Karsa (if indeed SE finished with him in the main story) is that out of 8 books in the series so far, he has been a dominant character in 4 of them. To leave his character out of the main plot line now is just silly, i mean if that's the case SE might as well not put him in the books at all. I have no problem with there being side plots and characters coming and going, but to leave a major player behind for a co-author to right about, especially after building him up is a bit of a cop out.

I am wondering if Erikson's plan is to have Karsa do something in the last two books but the big thing he's been talking about since Book 4 (uniting the Toblakai and conquering the world) is what is going to be left for the sequel trilogy (which Erikson himself is writing, not ICE). This would be fine and an example of the author setting up the sequel series in the main series (a bit like Abercrombie setting up a lot of Best Served Cold in Last Argument of Kings despite them being allegedly separate works) rather than a continuing narrative.

If we now don't see Karsa again until the sequel books that really will be bizarreness of the highest order, especially as Karsa is one of the closest things we have to a 'main' character in the series so far. As you say, Erikson may as well have left him out of the series altogether, or if his role was to simply tell the Crippled God to STFU and ESAD in Reaper's Gale he didn't need to be in TTH at all. As it was he was a bit of a fifth wheel in that book.

[Cougar]

Werthead, on Jun 27 2009, 02:47 AM, said:

I don't think he's talking about Brienne as he referred the sword falling on a character's head (

Spoiler

Brienne was hung

),

I don't think the size of characters penis has any relevance to this debate.

The reason Eriksson is going to take longer with his books in the next series is because "writing a book a year is killing me" direct quote I've heard him say twice.

I do think an 800 page book a year is a huge task for any authour.

Having no real interest what happens to ASoFaI or GRRM, I'd just say it's clear he is a PR disaster. If he thought about how he presented himself to his fans rather than spewing various bits of contradictory information, publicly displaying himself doing anything but writing the books whilst as Wert said expecting you to still buy the merchandise.

He can bitch and moan that it's not fair all he likes but my director is fond of a statment that I think applies here. "If someone has a bad impression of you then it's not going to do any good whining about whether it's well founded or not. Ultimately, even if someone believes something utterly untrue, only you or your actions created that impression and only you can resolve it"

He clearly does care deeply what people and his fans think so he should just have a think about shutting off the vomit of damaging and ill thought out information he puts out. It doesn't matter how vitriolic or unjustified the fandoms criticisms of him are, he is the only one who can do anything about rectifying that.

[caladanbrood]

So... amazon says October 29th release date... is this actually true, or another of their stab-in-the-dark guesses?

[Slick Mongoose]

caladanbrood, on Jul 29 2009, 04:26 PM, said:

So... amazon says October 29th release date... is this actually true, or another of their stab-in-the-dark guesses?

Stab-in-the-dark.

Until the book's finished, nobody knows.

[caladanbrood]

D'oh!

[Abyss]

re GRRM's Cliffhanger - yes, i was ref'ing to that character, and what was happening to them at the end of FEAST. I agree it's an obvious resolution, but even so, it's the equivalent of the episode ending just as the Batmobile flies off the cliff... sure, we all know what will happen, but even so, the cliff is there.

re Cliffhangers generally - i draw a big distinction between the above and say, the state of the Imass at the end of MoI.
That's an ending and a beginning - plot development and set-up, if you will. Otherwise it's like saying WW2 ended in a cliffhanger when germany surrendered because the hunt for nazi war criminals was just starting. If Silverfox had said 'But first, you all must swear loyalty to Krul or i'll turn you into t'lan g'rbils at a richard gere fan gathering!", and then the book had ended, THAT is a cliffhanger. And a weird one.

So ICE's ending of RCG

Spoiler

for Iron Bars has elements of both, but his journey to catch up with the Guard has ended in failure and he's off to something new. Not quite the same as if it had ended just as him and the seguleh lunged at each other.

.


- Abyss, ...notes the Silverfox thing weirded even him out.

[pat5150]

There is a new GRRM interview in the Montreal Gazette. George was meeting with the reporter following our lunch on Thursday.

You can read and hear the whole thing here.

Patrick

[Aptorian]

So, you posted a link to your site, which had a link to another site?

[Jumpy]

I'm so sick of waiting on this book.

[stone monkey]

Wanting to dive in on the Karsa thing; for me Karsa's story has never been that central to the series, it's always been about the Malazans. It's what they've set in motion that's the important thread of the story. Karsa, like everyone else, has just been caught up with it . He's an important character but his concerns are personal to him not about the state of the world. For him the CG is just another enemy, not the world shattering nemesis who must be stopped.

He's also very far from my favourite character too, so I can quite happily do without him. That said, I would think he has some further part to play, but not the central one that some people here seem to assume, because he's never really been a central character.

Anyway, on topic...

I like ASoIaF, and I will read aDoD whenever it shows. I do think it's somewhat disingenuous to bash Martin on the lateness issue. These things are done when they're done, we're all aware of that. And writers can get themselves into all kinds of mental messes when they try to force the issue. As an aside; I personally think that SE should perhaps have taken a just bit longer to polish everything after MT, because imo they haven't quite lived up to the promise of the first half of the series. But maybe that's just me.

Martin has been somewhat careless with his promises of completion and I can see why that would wind up a certain part of his fanbase. His reactions to their ire also seem a bit precious to me as he doesn't seem to get precisely why they might be annoyed (or even that they might have reason to be so). That said; he's simply writing a book, people. Yes, you might want to read it RIGHT NOW, but there's no need to get all het up about it. There are far more serious and important things going on in the world to be bothered by than whether a fantasy author finishes a book on time.

[Wry]

stone monkey, on Aug 9 2009, 11:29 PM, said:

Wanting to dive in on the Karsa thing; for me Karsa's story has never been that central to the series, it's always been about the Malazans. It's what they've set in motion that's the important thread of the story. Karsa, like everyone else, has just been caught up with it . He's an important character but his concerns are personal to him not about the state of the world. For him the CG is just another enemy, not the world shattering nemesis who must be stopped.

He's also very far from my favourite character too, so I can quite happily do without him. That said, I would think he has some further part to play, but not the central one that some people here seem to assume, because he's never really been a central character.

Anyway, on topic...

I like ASoIaF, and I will read aDoD whenever it shows. I do think it's somewhat disingenuous to bash Martin on the lateness issue. These things are done when they're done, we're all aware of that. And writers can get themselves into all kinds of mental messes when they try to force the issue. As an aside; I personally think that SE should perhaps have taken a just bit longer to polish everything after MT, because imo they haven't quite lived up to the promise of the first half of the series. But maybe that's just me.

This sums up my feelings completely, i shall now refer all my opinions to SM for articulation.


He can be my herald

[Werthead]

Wry, on Aug 9 2009, 11:34 PM, said:

This sums up my feelings completely, i shall now refer all my opinions to SM for articulation.


He can be my herald

Or, given your av, your Kif?