[Lisheo]

 Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 2 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

It ahs already been said that Kruppe cannot be some kind of elder creature because he still felt the effects of Lorn's sword in GotM. He's just a human much more cleverer than most think that fools eveyone with his aspect.

But, the question is, did he just pretend to feel them instead of unleashing all Hell? Because if he had done that, he would have called the many ascendants in the area to him, and I don't think that's part of his plan. It would have gotten his friends killed, also.
Kruppe may well be an Elder God. He walks in a dream with a powerful Imass Bonecaster and one of the Elder Gods. Forgive me, but I find it unlikely a normal mortal being could do that.
But as Baruk says, there are many paths to Ascendancy...

[Aptorian]

 Lisheo, on Feb 3 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

 Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 2 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

It ahs already been said that Kruppe cannot be some kind of elder creature because he still felt the effects of Lorn's sword in GotM. He's just a human much more cleverer than most think that fools eveyone with his aspect.

But, the question is, did he just pretend to feel them instead of unleashing all Hell? Because if he had done that, he would have called the many ascendants in the area to him, and I don't think that's part of his plan. It would have gotten his friends killed, also.
Kruppe may well be an Elder God. He walks in a dream with a powerful Imass Bonecaster and one of the Elder Gods. Forgive me, but I find it unlikely a normal mortal being could do that.
But as Baruk says, there are many paths to Ascendancy...

What nonsense. You really think he risked death so that he wouldn't, possibly, alert some random ascendant to his presence? From what we've seen ascendants are few and remote creatures. It's not like they sit in their evil hideouts with an ascendant detector waiting for the convergence alarm to go off at which point they scramble to get there before any other ascendant so that they can have a great big pillow fight over who is the ascendandest ascendant of all the ascendants.

Kruppe uses his powers plenty of times during GotM and MoI, he's not afraid of attention because he doesn't draw attention. He's just a fat little genious. Nothing... NOOOOOOOTTTTHHHHHIIIIINGGGGG!!! ... suggests that he has any greater powers than a midling mage, with a speciality in mocra and dreamstates. K'rull is becomming a god of dreams and it's he who instigates the events that unfolded within Kruppes dreams.

It amazes me how reluctant people are in using Ochams Razor when they're looking at any random event of these books. What's most logical? That the Elder God K'rull used his powers to manipulate events within Kruppes dreams (which was the only place he could manifest before the blood letting in his two temples in Darujistan and Capustan) and that he protected Kruppe from Broods Hammer. OR that Kruppe is a secret Elder God, whom none of the other Elder Gods, Ascendants or super mages that surrounds him are able to recognize because he's the God of Unassumingness and Pastries? That the author intends him to be an Elder God but never drops just the slightest hint from Kruppe that he is anything but an semi-omnipotent pastry eating machine. You tell me?

I hope Kruppe chokes on a pastry.

[Benji]

 Aptorian, on Feb 3 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

 Lisheo, on Feb 3 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

 Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 2 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

It ahs already been said that Kruppe cannot be some kind of elder creature because he still felt the effects of Lorn's sword in GotM. He's just a human much more cleverer than most think that fools eveyone with his aspect.

But, the question is, did he just pretend to feel them instead of unleashing all Hell? Because if he had done that, he would have called the many ascendants in the area to him, and I don't think that's part of his plan. It would have gotten his friends killed, also.
Kruppe may well be an Elder God. He walks in a dream with a powerful Imass Bonecaster and one of the Elder Gods. Forgive me, but I find it unlikely a normal mortal being could do that.
But as Baruk says, there are many paths to Ascendancy...

What nonsense. You really think he risked death so that he wouldn't, possibly, alert some random ascendant to his presence? From what we've seen ascendants are few and remote creatures. It's not like they sit in their evil hideouts with an ascendant detector waiting for the convergence alarm to go off at which point they scramble to get there before any other ascendant so that they can have a great big pillow fight over who is the ascendandest ascendant of all the ascendants.

Kruppe uses his powers plenty of times during GotM and MoI, he's not afraid of attention because he doesn't draw attention. He's just a fat little genious. Nothing... NOOOOOOOTTTTHHHHHIIIIINGGGGG!!! ... suggests that he has any greater powers than a midling mage, with a speciality in mocra and dreamstates. K'rull is becomming a god of dreams and it's he who instigates the events that unfolded within Kruppes dreams.

It amazes me how reluctant people are in using Ochams Razor when they're looking at any random event of these books. What's most logical? That the Elder God K'rull used his powers to manipulate events within Kruppes dreams (which was the only place he could manifest before the blood letting in his two temples in Darujistan and Capustan) and that he protected Kruppe from Broods Hammer. OR that Kruppe is a secret Elder God, whom none of the other Elder Gods, Ascendants or super mages that surrounds him are able to recognize because he's the God of Unassumingness and Pastries? That the author intends him to be an Elder God but never drops just the slightest hint from Kruppe that he is anything but an semi-omnipotent pastry eating machine. You tell me?

I hope Kruppe chokes on a pastry.

Amen to that.

[Xardean]

 Aptorian, on Feb 3 2009, 02:44 AM, said:

 Lisheo, on Feb 3 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

 Bauchelain the Evil, on Feb 2 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

It ahs already been said that Kruppe cannot be some kind of elder creature because he still felt the effects of Lorn's sword in GotM. He's just a human much more cleverer than most think that fools eveyone with his aspect.

But, the question is, did he just pretend to feel them instead of unleashing all Hell? Because if he had done that, he would have called the many ascendants in the area to him, and I don't think that's part of his plan. It would have gotten his friends killed, also.
Kruppe may well be an Elder God. He walks in a dream with a powerful Imass Bonecaster and one of the Elder Gods. Forgive me, but I find it unlikely a normal mortal being could do that.
But as Baruk says, there are many paths to Ascendancy...

What nonsense. You really think he risked death so that he wouldn't, possibly, alert some random ascendant to his presence? From what we've seen ascendants are few and remote creatures. It's not like they sit in their evil hideouts with an ascendant detector waiting for the convergence alarm to go off at which point they scramble to get there before any other ascendant so that they can have a great big pillow fight over who is the ascendandest ascendant of all the ascendants.

Kruppe uses his powers plenty of times during GotM and MoI, he's not afraid of attention because he doesn't draw attention. He's just a fat little genious. Nothing... NOOOOOOOTTTTHHHHHIIIIINGGGGG!!! ... suggests that he has any greater powers than a midling mage, with a speciality in mocra and dreamstates. K'rull is becomming a god of dreams and it's he who instigates the events that unfolded within Kruppes dreams.

It amazes me how reluctant people are in using Occam's Razor when they're looking at any random event of these books. What's most logical? That the Elder God K'rull used his powers to manipulate events within Kruppes dreams (which was the only place he could manifest before the blood letting in his two temples in Darujistan and Capustan) and that he protected Kruppe from Broods Hammer. OR that Kruppe is a secret Elder God, whom none of the other Elder Gods, Ascendants or super mages that surrounds him are able to recognize because he's the God of Unassumingness and Pastries? That the author intends him to be an Elder God but never drops just the slightest hint from Kruppe that he is anything but an semi-omnipotent pastry eating machine. You tell me?

I hope Kruppe chokes on a pastry.

I find it hard to believe that Kruppe is just a middling mage. Pust is very much like Kruppe in many ways and he owned Dejim Nebral when he was cornered. And if we are going to assume that it was K'rul intervening then shouldn't we also assume that alot of the major mortal accomplishments came from Ascendants directly meddling with mortals? I don't think we are giving Kruppe enough credit.

[L'oric]

I hope Kruppe chokes on a pastry too! But I think he is a high mage of Mockra at least. At least on par with his Warrens as Vorcan is with hers. His illusions and affectations are much like Ruckets fat suit. All part of the act, and its an act I would not mind changing in some way. I am not too enamored with all knowing, all powerful, unexplained characters.

Sincerely,
L'oric

[Ain't_It_Just_]

If Kruppe was destroyed by sorcery, then I would scream with laughter.

Maybe Kruppe wields some sort of different sorcery, like how Heuk in RotCG used "Blood and Elders." Can't say for the former, but maybe his powers (assuming they exist) are like ascendancy and grow at times, fade at others. I know that's not how ascendancy works but that's as close as I can get it.

[Aptorian]

 Xardean, on Feb 3 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

I find it hard to believe that Kruppe is just a middling mage. Pust is very much like Kruppe in many ways and he owned Dejim Nebral when he was cornered.

Pust is the Magus of Shadow, a High Priest, the highest priest, of Meanas. He is like the Tayschren of shadow play... or should that be the Kelanved... I don't know.

Kruppe is a fat little spy who we've seen steal some cake in a market and tamper with Murillos head. Kruppe is not a powerfull player, he is a devious player. His skill lies in information and manipulation. He seems to have an almost omnipotent mind - from what we see in TTH - and a sharp wit.

The real similarity between Kruppe and Pust lies in their ability to scheme and confound their pawns. It's their minds, not their power that you can compare.

We get plenty of scenes in MoI that suggests that none of the ascendants, mages or officers can understand him, but they sense it is his mind, not magical capabilities that are dangerous. I believe it is WJ that suggests to Dujek that Kruppes may be a singular intellect, the greatest mind in the world. Meaning he is most likely the greatest candidate for a Mocra Mortal Sword or High Priest...

Suddenly I'm getting an awesome crazy theory. In RG we learn that K'rull created the being Mocra as a kind of conciousness of the warrens, and there was another one always turned away from Mocra. Maybe Kruppe is Mocra or maybe he is the other one, a mortal being with the knowledge of everything. It would make sense that K'rull sought out his own creation.

Meh, it doesn't make sense, and the author should long ago had thrown hints of something like if it was likely.

Nothing we've seen suggests he's not just a fat guy with an amazing brain-

 Xardean, on Feb 3 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

And if we are going to assume that it was K'rul intervening then shouldn't we also assume that alot of the major mortal accomplishments came from Ascendants directly meddling with mortals? I don't think we are giving Kruppe enough credit.

No. The reason to why we "No Kruppe is not an ascendant"-people say that K'rull protects and uses Kruppe is because we see it happening. K'rull does appear in Kruppe's dreams. He does have long talks with him. He does make a deal with kruppe to help the bonecaster Pran Chole. We do hear someone comment in MoI that a gods hand was involved when Kruppe survived the hammers fall. It makes sense, and it is the most probable explanation.

It does not make sense jumping to the conclusion that he is an ascendant because we don't understand Kruppe's powers and his actions.

[Una chronicler]

Quite apart from being unresolved in the mind of the author, Kruppe is a mystery even unto himself. But is he a human mage gifted a role in grand events only because he has a high intellect? Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Here's what I *think* I know about him:

Kruppe is a sentient but not mortal expression of the sorcery unleashed at the Chaining convergence - maybe even of the very notion of convergence itself. Why do I think this?

Crone decries Kruppe's existence as an abomination - she believes he should have been a great raven but somehow he wasn't. Great ravens seem to be born from the clash of the greatest sorceries. I'm reasonably sure Crone makes reference to the Chaining within the same general passage as she says words to the effect of "you should have been one of us.."

Kruppe and K'rul are great mates. In fact, Kruppe gets on reasonably well with all of the Elder gods he comes into contact with. Not even Sister of Cold Nights takes significant umbrage at his presence. In fact, he seems to be viewed on with tolerance if not favour by all who were at the Chaining.

Kruppe's magical abilities, while not displayed all that often, are beyond even what a high mage can accomplish. His dreams are sufficiently magical to remove a Jaghut tyrant from reality and to confound his senses. His dream realm is sufficiently powerful to provide immaculate conception to the Maybe, enabling the rolling up of an Elder goddess, a human mage and a theloman into Silverfox therefore giving rise to the salvation/damnation of the T'lam Imass. This may well have been assisted by K'rul but I think that only goes to support that Kruppe is some by-product of the great magic required at the Chaining.

Could Quick Ben take him, probably, but that's only because QB's deviousness includes murderous intent whereas Kruppe would rather delay someone in an appropriately confounding manner.

Kruppe's loyalty to Darujhistan seems to be all directed to protecting the city from another grand convergence, possibly the last one.

There's a ton of evidence to gift to Kruppe an awareness of things no mere human mage should know. He knows Crokus has Oponn's coin when Crokus' uncle (one of the demons forming the Cabal) doesn't recognise it.

He also seems to know when sufficient prowess exists to handle a situation such as the Gederone fete at the end of GoTM, so he can assist the staff clear the groaning tables by eating as much as he can.

I could go on but the boss is coming,

[amphibian]

 Una chronicler, on Feb 8 2009, 11:20 PM, said:

He also seems to know when sufficient prowess exists to handle a situation such as the Gederone fete at the end of GoTM, so he can assist the staff clear the groaning tables by eating as much as he can.

Even as a joke, this statement has plenty of meaning for me.

In Toll the Hounds, Kruppe only acts five times - to sucker Scorch and Leff, to send Crokus on his path of revenge, to organize Murillo's funeral, to stymie Iskaral Pust and to tell the story to K'Rul and Fisher. All of these are surprisingly tangential to the main story lines when I compare them to his actions (feats?) in Memories of Ice.

Since the whole book was told from his point of view, I am not sure if he purposely downplayed his role (shading the narrative a bit) or if he really did decide to back off some and let things play out as they would.

[Benji]

Just want to address a few bits here...

 Una chronicler, on Feb 9 2009, 04:20 AM, said:

Quite apart from being unresolved in the mind of the author, Kruppe is a mystery even unto himself. But is he a human mage gifted a role in grand events only because he has a high intellect? Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Here's what I *think* I know about him:

Kruppe is a sentient but not mortal expression of the sorcery unleashed at the Chaining convergence - maybe even of the very notion of convergence itself. Why do I think this?

Is there any evidence to support this? I don't think he's been linked to the chainings at all.

Quote

Crone decries Kruppe's existence as an abomination - she believes he should have been a great raven but somehow he wasn't. Great ravens seem to be born from the clash of the greatest sorceries. I'm reasonably sure Crone makes reference to the Chaining within the same general passage as she says words to the effect of "you should have been one of us.."

This was more a comment on Kruppe's intelligence and use of words.

Quote

Kruppe and K'rul are great mates. In fact, Kruppe gets on reasonably well with all of the Elder gods he comes into contact with. Not even Sister of Cold Nights takes significant umbrage at his presence. In fact, he seems to be viewed on with tolerance if not favour by all who were at the Chaining.

As for as I know, Kruppe has only met two elder gods. K'rul was just using Kruppe's dreams and Kruppe himself has always been a pawn. A willing and helpful pawn, but a pawn nonetheless. The other one he met was Nightchill, and that was her, Bellurdan, Tattersail and whoever the mysterious dead rhivi baby was. It was more Tattersail that was friends with Kruppe rather than any of the others. Also, all the gods and ascendants that we know have met Kruppe seem to be immensely irritated by him.

Quote

Kruppe's magical abilities, while not displayed all that often, are beyond even what a high mage can accomplish. His dreams are sufficiently magical to remove a Jaghut tyrant from reality and to confound his senses. His dream realm is sufficiently powerful to provide immaculate conception to the Maybe, enabling the rolling up of an Elder goddess, a human mage and a theloman into Silverfox therefore giving rise to the salvation/damnation of the T'lam Imass. This may well have been assisted by K'rul but I think that only goes to support that Kruppe is some by-product of the great magic required at the Chaining.

His dreams are K'rul's world. The only command he has there is from his ability with divination, which any reader of the deck would have. Most of the events that happen in his dreams are because of K'rul, not Kruppe.

Quote

Could Quick Ben take him, probably, but that's only because QB's deviousness includes murderous intent whereas Kruppe would rather delay someone in an appropriately confounding manner.

The more important question is WOULD QB take him. The answer is no, why would he? There would be nothing to gain from either parties after a fight.

Quote

There's a ton of evidence to gift to Kruppe an awareness of things no mere human mage should know. He knows Crokus has Oponn's coin when Crokus' uncle (one of the demons forming the Cabal) doesn't recognise it.

Mammot is human, not a demon. He also wouldn't know of it because Crokus didn't show it to him. He showed it to Kruppe who, as a mage, would recognise the ascendant link in it. If Crokus had showed it to any other mage, then they too would probably recognise it as well.

Quote

He also seems to know when sufficient prowess exists to handle a situation such as the Gederone fete at the end of GoTM, so he can assist the staff clear the groaning tables by eating as much as he can.

When all is said and done, Kruppe doesn't do things himself, he manipulates events. The only times he's interfered with something was when Iskaral Pust was going for Dragnipur and when Raest was going for Darujhistan. Kruppe probably only faced Pust because of all the fans clamouring for such an event. When he went for Raest, it was mostly just a stalling tactic, he didn't do much other than let the T'lan Imass slice Raest in half.

Nothing against you guys who love Kruppe, but I just hate him

[amphibian]

 Benji, on Feb 9 2009, 07:48 AM, said:

When all is said and done, Kruppe doesn't do things himself, he manipulates events. The only times he's interfered with something was when Iskaral Pust was going for Dragnipur and when Raest was going for Darujhistan. Kruppe probably only faced Pust because of all the fans clamouring for such an event. When he went for Raest, it was mostly just a stalling tactic, he didn't do much other than let the T'lan Imass slice Raest in half.

Kruppe very directly steps into the concatenation of legends during the Dujek-Anomander/Brood team-up in Memories of Ice. He could have faded into the background and worked on Silverfox alone, but he confronted Brood, alleviated tension and generally kept the alliance from disintegrating. His work as the Eel in GotM is a similar thing, but on a much smaller scale.

I think his more reserved role in TtH was unusual in that he wasn't involved so much with the day to day espionage (Circlebreaker etc.) as he was before. He really sat back and let things play out as they would (and as he probably knew they would).

[Sinisdar Toste]

in regards to TtH and kruppes apparent inaction therein, my thoughts are that he had an inkling, or was even quite aware of the eons old conflict that was being brought to a resolution. kruppe has a nose for schemes and the hood/rake/ST scheme was the most convoluted scheme in the whole of these books. kruppe probably just trusted them to keep things from going apocalyptic

[Seguleh 1st]

many of you are suggesting that kruppe is a pawn or something similar to k'rul. but those two are reportedly friends and treat each other as equals. and for k'rul saving kruppe from broods hammer, k'rul was newly awake and not into his full power again and he would alone stand down a force that can destroy the world in a single blow? unlikely, IMO.

Seg1st, hates haters of worthy kruppe

[Bauchelain the Evil]

K'rul didn't stop the hammer's power:The hammer still made the ground tremble and made fissures appear. He simply protected Kruppe from it. For an EG ,even just returned as K'rul, it mustn't have been so difficult.