[Terez]

The 20th, on Dec 23 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

Common Terez, dont play games. You applied what sounded like justification. "They're a small minority that isn't in power, so their intolerance won't create discrimination." Why even say that unless you intended to "soften" my charge of intolerance to those guys who said they found religious politicians "abhorrent".

Shin, my only point was that the religious are not generally marginalized in the US. It's true. I never claimed that intolerance is any less intolerant when against religious people, and the only reason you read it as "justification" is because you have an agenda. Now, do you want to stop accusing me of playing games and have a real discussion, or do you just have a bone to pick?

[Shinrei]

People have jumped on my before for not wording things very well. I guess this is a case of the same. When I first read your post, it sounded like justification for intolerance. I don't know you personally, and the internet is a wonderful place for misunderstandings and for that I apologize.

If I was continuing to be nitpicky, I could find fault with what you just wrote above too. (I think certain religious people ARE marginalized).

But then I'd just be a jerk.

[Terez]

The 20th, on Dec 24 2008, 12:24 AM, said:

People have jumped on my before for not wording things very well. I guess this is a case of the same. When I first read your post, it sounded like justification for intolerance.

Show me how it was worded badly. I think it was perfectly clear.

Shin said:

(I think certain religious people ARE marginalized).

I never said that they were not. I just said that it's not a widespread problem.

[HoosierDaddy]

Mr. Dawkins should move his campaign to the U.S. it seems to me. Europe isn't quite so hung up on religion as the U.S. is, however, I am glad to say I think that non-belief is gaining some ground being discriminated against here.

How has religion affected me? I have some gay friends that can't get married because religious people have a monopoly on what is a constitutionally protected right for non-gay people.

[Shinrei]

HoosierDaddy brings up the major example I was aware of. The fact that gay marriage is a no-no is largely because of the fundy religious types. This is all shades of wrong. Terez, thanks for pointing out the public office thing.

[Terez]

The 20th, on Dec 25 2008, 04:41 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy brings up the major example I was aware of. The fact that gay marriage is a no-no is largely because of the fundy religious types. This is all shades of wrong. Terez, thanks for pointing out the public office thing.

No problem. You're right that certain religious people in the US are marginalized (primarily non-Christians). But take, for instance, Muslims - easily the most marginalized religious group in the US, accounting for less than 1% of the population. Even a Muslim can get elected to Congress:

http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english...070559e-02.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNew...164415020080312

The non-religious make up 10-20% of the US population. Studies consistently show that the percentage is far greater among those with higher education (and politicians almost always fall into this category). So, something is wrong with the picture.

[Urb]

The 20th, on Dec 21 2008, 04:06 AM, said:

How are athiests marginalized? Has someone found themselves discriminated against or discovered a lack of some privilage because they were an athiest?

I can see gay marriage as a possible example, but what else?

Abortion?

[Lisheo]

Urb, on Dec 25 2008, 11:28 AM, said:

The 20th, on Dec 21 2008, 04:06 AM, said:

How are athiests marginalized? Has someone found themselves discriminated against or discovered a lack of some privilage because they were an athiest?

I can see gay marriage as a possible example, but what else?

Abortion?

I agree.

I'd also like to add that here in Ireland you face discrimination in so-called "multi-demoninational" secondary schools, in the sense that at least once a year I had to miss classes because the school was holding a mass or whatever, which I HAD to attend.

Although at the time I wasn't complaining about the whole missing classes

But the point is, I don't think thats fair, to force someone to attend to a ceremonial ritual based on YOUR beliefs.

I know its only a small thing, but imagine the uproar, for example, if atheist vews were imposed on Christians.

[Grief]

Terez, on Dec 23 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Yes, the forum religious views reflect the European tilt to this forum. Or perhaps the tilt of epic fantasy readers.

Am I a minority for worshipping K'rul?

Tbh, it was kinda just an excuse to sacrifice my irritating little brother...

(Joke btw. For some reason jokes can be taken a little seriously in this area. Sometimes)

[Terez]

I don't know that abortion is a good example of atheists being marginalized - after all, most places even in the US allow abortion, and it's equally available to atheists and theists. I don't even know that gay marriage is a good example of atheists being marginalized - it's just a good example of religious people being intolerant (of gay people, many of whom are religious).

[Urb]

Terez, on Dec 25 2008, 01:09 PM, said:

I don't know that abortion is a good example of atheists being marginalized - after all, most places even in the US allow abortion, and it's equally available to atheists and theists. I don't even know that gay marriage is a good example of atheists being marginalized - it's just a good example of religious people being intolerant (of gay people, many of whom are religious).

Note the questionmark.
I figured since Shin gave the other example himself, abortion could kind of fit what he was asking for.

[Terez]

Yeah, I was just saying.

[Shinrei]

Urb and Terez, it's true that it isn't the best example because, as you pointed out, many homosexuals are also religious, abortion is practiced in the States, and there are people who object to abortion who do not do so from a religious grounds.

I think though, that people use religion the most when trying to justify their position on these subjects and will make the claim that abortion or homosexual marriage is due to some sort of amorality of atheists. I don't know that' I've heard a reasoning against gay marriage that wasn't religiously rooted. (and the retarded "it's just wrong" argument doesn't count, since it isn't based on anything but 'feeling')

BTW, Muslims was who I was thinking of when I made the comment above about religious people being marginalized. Of course, they are not barred from office.... The more I think about that, the more messed up that is.

This post has been edited by The 20th: 26 December 2008 - 12:43 PM

[Gem Windcaster]

The 20th, on Dec 26 2008, 11:02 AM, said:

I think though, that people use religion the most when trying to justify their position on these subjects and will make the claim that abortion or homosexual marriage is due to some sort of amorality of atheists. I don't know that' I've heard a reasoning against gay marriage that wasn't religiously rooted. (and the retarded "it's just wrong" argument doesn't count, since it isn't based on anything but 'feeling')

I just want to make a note - I agree that this is the case - and I think it's a shame that it has to be like this among Christians. One would think that Christians should be the most tolerant, but people believing in God is just that - regular people. Those of us that don't discriminate based on faith are not as heard in media, unfortunately.

I don't mind Christians getting a reality check once in a while - it will force us to trust more inGod and less in ourselves. Once again; Religion shouldn't be a part of politics - although it should be a part of the people that makes the policies - which is a big difference me thinks.

A quick note on sin: there's a lot of sins that people do, and there's no true 'death sin' except unbelief. All other sins are as bad as the next, no matter what certain Christians make it sound. Take a lie for instance - it's as much a sin as anything else a human being does, but it never is used as an argument to discriminate or call someone a sinner on the streets. Hey, even Christians lie.

I think it's sad that Christians all over use the "it's a sin" argument to be sinful themselves - and by that I mean discriminate and being hateful. Jesus never discriminated anyone - and although he called on peoples sins - he never turned away, instead he sat and ate with them and talked with them - because he loves them. Christianity is and should always be about love, and if you absolutely have to tell someone they're sinning, it should be told in love, not in condemnation, and you should be sure you're supposed to say anything at all and, and most importantly, you should be make sure there's no hidden sin in your own life that you have no clue about.

It makes me sad just thinking about it all.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 26 December 2008 - 01:41 PM

[HoosierDaddy]

Gem Windcaster, on Dec 26 2008, 08:40 AM, said:

The 20th, on Dec 26 2008, 11:02 AM, said:

I think though, that people use religion the most when trying to justify their position on these subjects and will make the claim that abortion or homosexual marriage is due to some sort of amorality of atheists. I don't know that' I've heard a reasoning against gay marriage that wasn't religiously rooted. (and the retarded "it's just wrong" argument doesn't count, since it isn't based on anything but 'feeling')

I just want to make a note - I agree that this is the case - and I think it's a shame that it has to be like this among Christians. One would think that Christians should be the most tolerant, but people believing in God is just that - regular people. Those of us that don't discriminate based on faith are not as heard in media, unfortunately.

I don't mind Christians getting a reality check once in a while - it will force us to trust more inGod and less in ourselves. Once again; Religion shouldn't be a part of politics - although it should be a part of the people that makes the policies - which is a big difference me thinks.

A quick note on sin: there's a lot of sins that people do, and there's no true 'death sin' except unbelief. All other sins are as bad as the next, no matter what certain Christians make it sound. Take a lie for instance - it's as much a sin as anything else a human being does, but it never is used as an argument to discriminate or call someone a sinner on the streets. Hey, even Christians lie.

I think it's sad that Christians all over use the "it's a sin" argument to be sinful themselves - and by that I mean discriminate and being hateful. Jesus never discriminated anyone - and although he called on peoples sins - he never turned away, instead he sat and ate with them and talked with them - because he loves them. Christianity is and should always be about love, and if you absolutely have to tell someone they're sinning, it should be told in love, not in condemnation, and you should be sure you're supposed to say anything at all and, and most importantly, you should be make sure there's no hidden sin in your own life that you have no clue about.

It makes me sad just thinking about it all.

Find me one person who truly practices Christ's gospel, and I'll show you 1,000 that abuse it to get what they want, do what they want, and make excuses they need made because of that. On topic, however, I think that slogan is purposefully antagonistic. If all he wanted to do was tell atheists that they weren't alone, a much simpler message could have been used. Rather, I think he is purposefully pushing the envelope to get publicity for his beliefs... or books.

As to more "how are atheists marginalized...": I've found that it is a much more subtle discrimination that is a very instinctual, make you look twice kind of reaction that religious people have.

[Gem Windcaster]

HoosierDaddy, on Dec 26 2008, 07:19 PM, said:

As to more "how are atheists marginalized...": I've found that it is a much more subtle discrimination that is a very instinctual, make you look twice kind of reaction that religious people have.

The concept of atheists being marginalized is very alien to me, since I live in a country where the religious people are the ones in minority - especially in politics, media and in the public forum. As for being marginalized though, I would never say that, but there's a lot of ideas about religious people that are wrong - which is more our own fault than anyone else - and many of people's ideas of what religious people are comes from the very extreme picture media paints - mostly because media almost never mirrors what's normal, only the weird stuff. I guess it's the same with atheists in more religious countries - the average atheist is not as much shown in media as much as the extreme stuff - it's what media is all about in a way. That's why it's important to fight for what you believe in even if your ideas are not extreme in the general sense.

What you think doesn't show as much as what you do or don't do does.

[HoosierDaddy]

"Extreme atheism"? I don't think it is exists. Maybe there are some atheists that try to push the message or are more aggresive, aka this thread, but there is no spectrum for which there to be an extreme end in non-belief. There is simply non-belief. There are perhaps differences in how much religion an atheist will put up with, but that has nothing to do with a difference in belief; it's just more about controlling about what is communicated.

[Gem Windcaster]

I don't mean extreme in that way - I simply meant that some people are heard more than others, that's all.

This post has been edited by Gem Windcaster: 26 December 2008 - 10:07 PM

[Cause]

Well speaking as an atheist I would say Im discriminated against. Not in the sense that I cant ride the same busses as religous people but in the sense that most people think I really do believe in god, Im just confused. They honestly seem to think Im playing or just cant comprehend that a person could not believe.. Its expected that I should partcipate in prayers, or the ritual washing of my hands at meals etc out of respect for their beliefs, but than where is the respect for mine? I once lost a girlfriend over the issue. My own mother has stated she is upset by the issue. My mother who has not been to shull in my memmory and who keeps none of the laws or rituals I associate with judaism. I dont want to say Im a victim. Its not like racism or gay bashing but their is definatly a tension that arises from it

[Terez]

The 20th, on Dec 26 2008, 04:02 AM, said:

BTW, Muslims was who I was thinking of when I made the comment above about religious people being marginalized. Of course, they are not barred from office.... The more I think about that, the more messed up that is.

I'm not sure how deep you dug into the stuff I linked, but this is interesting (from 2006):





Ha, and I like this one too:

This post has been edited by Terez: 27 December 2008 - 09:31 AM