[Dolmen 2.0]

dassem rake and seguleh 1st are, in my mind, the pinnacle swordsmen. There are few i'd say have a shot against them. Let me tell you why dassem belongs at the top. Before vengeance dassem 'beat': skinner (immortal) ryllandaras (immortal werejackal) a horde of champions and scared hood to hell and back. All while mortal and barely within ?68 years? time.

Rake had millions of years on the man and he still kept up to the point no other, acended or not, could properly follow. Rake i believe is far better than draconus was and is swinging a weapon that assualts the mind and the physical form. Rake could have picked any swordsman to end him. He picked dassem.

This post has been edited by Dolmen: 12 July 2011 - 07:33 PM

[Jingospice]

First, of all I still think Brys is the best non-ascendant swordsman except for maybe Rell in RotCG. He didnt beat some random Tiste Edur he completely dismantled their emperor who had just previously killed the second best swordsman in the kingdom. Even Fear was in awe of how good he was. Rell of course was a Seguleh prodigy so ofc hes going to be the best swordsman w/o special powers. As far as ascendants go though, I'd definitely agree that Rake is number one and Dassem is number two. Although Dassem won, there are two things that put Rake above him. One ,obviously, Rake threw the fight. Secondly, he was fighting with the entire weight of Hoods warren in his sword.

Quote: "Whatever weight descended upon him at this moment was invisible to the mortal eye...but its horrendous toll was undeniable. The Son of Darkness, Dragnipur in one hand, bowed and bent like an old man. The sword's point grated and then caught in a joint between four cobbles. And Anomander Rake began to lean on it, every muscle straining as his legs slowly gave way - no, he could not stand beneath this weight."

Admittedly SOME of the weight was removed due to the battle with chaos in the sword, but Hood along with legions upon legions of the dead were still in Dragnipur at the time of the fight.

[LordofTheFallen]

Bonecaster, on 12 July 2011 - 03:31 AM, said:

And now I await more of your attitude.

Nah, its ok. i just thought it was a really weird way to prove your point, but you filled in the rest of the story quite nicely. Blues is pretty decent in just about anything.

[Brujah]

Karsa wins vs. the entire list at the same time. They all roll up on Karsa like they John Ghotti and Karsa goes 'beast mode' son.(using my best slang)

Karsa vs. Godzilla.
Karsa.

Karsa vs. Ditka
Karsa.

[dktorode]

Brujah, on 06 July 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Karsa wins vs. the entire list at the same time. They all roll up on Karsa like they John Ghotti and Karsa goes 'beast mode' son.(using my best slang)

Karsa vs. Godzilla.
Karsa.

Karsa vs. Ditka
Karsa.

karsa is in awe of dassem an anomander...his own words.

[Malaclypse]

dktorode, on 06 July 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

Brujah, on 06 July 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Karsa wins vs. the entire list at the same time. They all roll up on Karsa like they John Ghotti and Karsa goes 'beast mode' son.(using my best slang)

Karsa vs. Godzilla.
Karsa.

Karsa vs. Ditka
Karsa.

karsa is in awe of dassem an anomander...his own words.

this. Anomander baited Dassem into killing him. Thus, Anomander wins. End of.

[Brujah]

Karsa would only ever lose a fight if the winning objective was 'to lose.'

Of course Karsa is in awe of Dassem and Rake. He just saw possibly 3rd and 4th best warriors in the multi-verse go at it. He had just witnessed the best fighting ability he had ever seen from an outsiders PoV.

Karsa is 'The Will to Win' personified. Karsa would somehow find a way to win even if it was He vs. An Incoming World Ending Meteor of Cosmic Doom. He'd allow the meteor to destroy itself by totally destroying the current planet he was on, and the only thing you'd see when the dust clears would be Karsa hurling himself through space in the direction of the next hospitable planet pissed only because when he yelled 'Witness' right before he defeated the meteor, no one listened - by not surviving. "Weak mortals" his last thought as he continues winning the newest battle of He vs. The Laws of Physics.

[Baaljagg]

I guess we'll find out (one day) whether Karsa is the best - in the Toblakai Trilogy. If a single living soul exists by the end of the three books then Karsa has failed and does not deserve No1. Until then I'm still going to insist that it is between Rake, Draconus and Icarium (in a rage). Rake being number 1, Draconus and Icarium (in a rage) being joint number 2, followed by Dassem at number 3 and Karsa in 4th place.

[Vaddon Ra]

Onos, on 02 December 2008 - 06:52 PM, said:

This thread is response to how powerful Kallor is with the sword. At first just wanted to throw it in that thread, but it is different as i am listed who i think are the best swordsmen. Note: I am ordering them as best i can. Some are nearly impossible to tell since they havent fought someone who has fought someone else. (Example: Mok and Onos have only really fought each other, no one else of relevance)

1. Rake* (Contention that Dragnipur is a one kill sword, countered by its 'weight', specially after Hood enters)
2. Dassem (How much is Grief helping him... still a champion either way, but now really want to know how Grief helps him)
3. Mok (For all i know he could be higher. We need more evidence on Mok, but i view him as one of the best of a race that seems entirely devoted to fighting prowess. Also he is only 3rd, but he is mentioned as perhaps being ready to challenge the first, so until we see the first or even the 2nd in a fight)
4. Onos (I would argue alive he could take Mok, but have no proof. Also Mok used two swords vs Onos' one, so that tells me a lot. 1 vs. 1 swords.... Isnt his title first sword? hundreds of thousands of years before all the other upstarts?)
5. Silchas (Clearly better than Iron Bars and thus probably ahead of Skinner. Solar used the Trull as a benchmark to rank Silchas ahead of Icarium in skill)
6. Icarium (Ok i now admit he is pretty fast. He could be even higher... I have dropped him back down due to Trull comparision)
7. Skinner (didnt seem THAT great, but that was against Dasseem. He beat Greymane it seems. Also his armour makes things tricky. He certainly could be a few spots lower)
8. Greymane (didnt use the sword...whatever that means. Doesnt Brood speak highly of Greymane?)
9. Brys (i know some people think he is the shit... but the only evidence we had was him beating a still shitty Rhulad. He struck me as good... but not there with the rest. People seem adamant that he is better than i have placed him. Feeling info on him is lacking though he could slide up to 7th)
10. Karsa (He seems to have incredible speed... but think that is more his pocket warren. Also he was awed by Rake/Dasseem, so that should be a hint at his true skill. I might need to revisit the Karsa/Rhulad fight)
11. Trull* (not a swordsman... ok below Silchas, but how far does he drop? Fairly good argument made he was below Brys)
12. Kallor (he isnt the greatest but against lesser foes he is good. Would he have looked better if he knew he was fighting Dasseem? I have reread the Spinnock fight. Seems like Kallor is the better here. Spinnock over performed)
13. Spinnock (Think Spinnock does belong below Kallor)
14. Rell* (He doesnt come with a lot of evidence fighting other good swordsmen... hard to place him exactly. I have gained more respect for his abilities of late... but still dont know if i can up him much without relevant proof)
15. Iron Bars (Good, but below Skinner, below Silchas, has trouble with the 1000 Seguleh)
16. Blues (could be better than Iron Bars)
17. Shimmer (could be better than Iron Bars or Blues)
18. Nenanda (No evidence fighting names characters, but due to request i have added him to list. As he starts kicking ass he can move up)
19. Whiskeyjack (ok have added him...)
20. Gruntle

*Dead (as far as we can tell)

Am i missing any notables? I think i am intentionally excluding WJ. Not sure where to add him, but i think he is near the bottom or even at the bottom of this list.

Thoughts? Complaints? (i am sure there will be many )

Couple of things I dont think Rake or Dassem are much helped by their swords, I'm pretty sure in the case of Grief Dassem is the only one the sword will let wield due to his obsession with revenge, and as for Dragnipur surely the morale crush on that would hinder any but the utmost of uber badasses. So we must assume that whether or not they are armed with world ending swords, those two are the best swordsmen the series has, which I suggest is why SE decided they had to meet, cos none other than the two biggest WTFPWND hardasses in the world could do it justice
Karsa says that Icarium is much faster than anything he'd tried to fight before, and so far as we know trull was hard pressed and wetting his keks to counter him, and this is the same trull that pretty much solo's Silchas, Clip and whoever else nubcake enough to get in the way...so Icarium has got to be up there above even maybe rake considering how he would just not stop coming and eventually rake et al would tire and just flee or die

The seguleh 3rd spanked tool, its decided he's the boss, an outright baller pimp sword warlord who for some dumb reason ICE did not include in OST Major nerd frowns. The whole point of the Tool/Mok fight was to put across the tragedy of the T'lan immass, they have outlived, well, their gods, their society everything in a tragic twist on immortality, its what he says to Kaliva or Kilava, I can never remember her name XD, he says their time is ended, face it sister, the 3rd is a badass mofo who kicked my ass...although it was more eloquent than that XD
Plus I would wager that Tool is harder now than he was when alive seeing as he doesnt really feel pain anymore...not to suggest he's a pussy DOD and TCG show that right up...he's hard as Nails and faster than most anything...its just that, well, the seguleh...are the SEGULEH

also...in regards to Skinner...he's a cheat...Greymane would have curb stomped that noob if not for goddess protected armour and a poisoned weapon...if he had got real angry and pulled the SwordofBurnsFirebreathingwrathhelldeathvengeance (its official title ofc) then it would be like having a duel against someone who's weapon levels mountains...Skinner would have died...as would have everyone in ROTCG Burns temple would have woken the goddess up and the world of WU would be no more :DDDDD I kinda wish that had happened, cos skinner is stupid and Greymane should have had him owned.

Alas, I'm hoping (LISTEN ICE LISTEN) the BEST CHARACTER EVER, Seguleh 2nd woot pwnd will come and turbo finish him off with all the weapons he has...damn but skinners a nub.

anyway my 2 cents, have fun

[Silencer]

The thing that really interests me about Rake vs Dassem, is that Dassem was wielding Vengeance. According to Andarist, it is a sword that is undefeatable when a wielder of singular will uses it. Anomander Rake, forger of said sword, passed it on when his will was no longer singular, when he found Dragnipur.

But here's the thing. Rake beat Vengeance. Wielded by a man of unquestionably singular will, of singular skill with a blade, and Rake BEAT it. True, he "lost", but the REASON everyone sees that blow, the reason everyone "knows" that it is WRONG, is that Rake is basically defying the laws of his own weapon, by exploiting the fact that, for him, victory comes with his death. He ENGINEERED that fight SPECIFICALLY so that Dassem killed him in the way he NEEDED to be killed; with Dragnipur. Not with Vengeance. He deliberately set it up so that his own sword would kill him.

Can you honestly say that Dassem WON that fight? No. Because Rake got what he wanted. Rake manipulated Dassem in the middle of the most intense fight in the series. That puts Rake on such a ridiculous tier of skill that it is beyond reasonable. Given the man has had endless millennia of fighting the most powerful and skilled beings in the world, this is not really surprising. He fought his way through an indeterminate amount of Seguleh (it's implied to be many, imo), culminating in the Seventh ranked. At which point he decides he needs a bit of a breather. Rake is actually imbalanced. It's the reason he doesn't personally DO much in the series, because he'd basically be Deus Ex Machina, and because of the trend of Convergence meaning that he would always be putting himself at risk of attracting an endless stream of people wanting to take a shot at him, if he expended too much effort or power in one chunk. Hell, just to protect Dragnipur itself he gets a fuckload of powerful people in place beforehand. :S

And on the note of Dragnipur - it may be a huge strain on him, thus skewing any perception of his ACTUAL ability or speed (one presumes that pre-Hood, he would have adapted to using the weapon while under such strain), but the (possibly GotM-ism, though I don't think it is) one-wound-kills aspect of that sword...it puts him above Icarium in rage mode EASILY. I don't think he'd WANT Icarium in the sword (that might have broken it, lol) but he would definitely outclass Icarium enough to cut him. At which point Icarium dies. And if he was using something less ridiculous, I imagine he'd carve Icarium into pieces.


Anyway, that's my take on all that. XD

[the broken]

Silencer, on 15 July 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

The thing that really interests me about Rake vs Dassem, is that Dassem was wielding Vengeance. According to Andarist, it is a sword that is undefeatable when a wielder of singular will uses it. Anomander Rake, forger of said sword, passed it on when his will was no longer singular, when he found Dragnipur.

But here's the thing. Rake beat Vengeance. Wielded by a man of unquestionably singular will, of singular skill with a blade, and Rake BEAT it. True, he "lost", but the REASON everyone sees that blow, the reason everyone "knows" that it is WRONG, is that Rake is basically defying the laws of his own weapon, by exploiting the fact that, for him, victory comes with his death. He ENGINEERED that fight SPECIFICALLY so that Dassem killed him in the way he NEEDED to be killed; with Dragnipur. Not with Vengeance. He deliberately set it up so that his own sword would kill him.

Can you honestly say that Dassem WON that fight? No. Because Rake got what he wanted. Rake manipulated Dassem in the middle of the most intense fight in the series. That puts Rake on such a ridiculous tier of skill that it is beyond reasonable. Given the man has had endless millennia of fighting the most powerful and skilled beings in the world, this is not really surprising. He fought his way through an indeterminate amount of Seguleh (it's implied to be many, imo), culminating in the Seventh ranked. At which point he decides he needs a bit of a breather. Rake is actually imbalanced. It's the reason he doesn't personally DO much in the series, because he'd basically be Deus Ex Machina, and because of the trend of Convergence meaning that he would always be putting himself at risk of attracting an endless stream of people wanting to take a shot at him, if he expended too much effort or power in one chunk. Hell, just to protect Dragnipur itself he gets a fuckload of powerful people in place beforehand. :S

And on the note of Dragnipur - it may be a huge strain on him, thus skewing any perception of his ACTUAL ability or speed (one presumes that pre-Hood, he would have adapted to using the weapon while under such strain), but the (possibly GotM-ism, though I don't think it is) one-wound-kills aspect of that sword...it puts him above Icarium in rage mode EASILY. I don't think he'd WANT Icarium in the sword (that might have broken it, lol) but he would definitely outclass Icarium enough to cut him. At which point Icarium dies. And if he was using something less ridiculous, I imagine he'd carve Icarium into pieces.


Anyway, that's my take on all that. XD

Just because Rake was able to get Dassem to kill him doesn't mean he could've beat him if he wanted to

OST SPOILERS DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU'VE FINISHED IT

Quote

Spoiler

At the end of OST, Gall challenges Jan. Jan can't win the fight, but he can trick Gall into killing him the way he wants to.

Personally, I think the best swordsman in the series is Brys. Which isn't the same as saying he would win a fight. Karsa isn't skilled, he's just faster, stronger, and more durable than anyone else. He's also surprisingly cowardly. When he sees Rake and Dassem fighting, and knows that either could cut him in half, his whole 'bring it, baby.' attitude suddenly dissolves.

As for Dassem , how much of his skill is his own? Even early on, he was Hood's Knight (patronage means something as we see in NOK that a 'patroned champion' is tougher than ordinary soldiers. And then he becomes Dessembrae and carries Vengeance, unbeatable if someone is single minded.

[Silencer]

Post unapproved pending mod review.

[Brujah]

No need for review, delete it. Due to another unrelated issue I won't be posting here anymore anyway.

[worry]

Are you going to prison?

[tiam]

Silencer- rake did not discard vengeance because he lost his singular will. Andarist tells us he gave to him when he found one more suited to his nature in hoc. This makes sense in that dragnipur is a sword of cold justice thus fitting the description. While we will find out so info in fod about why or for who rake forged vengeance its possible it was for draconus to avenge some fued. However it could also have been that after draconus' imprisonment rake could not let anyone control the sword to unleash him or control the sword as it held the gate of darkness. What im getting at is rake did not lose singular focus but likely took dragnipur for sensible reasons. Aslo i would argue that wielding dragnipur takes a focus equal or greater to vengeance. Singular will is needed to wield vengeance but such will is necessary to simply withstand dragnipur.

[Brujah]

worrywort, on 16 July 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

Are you going to prison?

No my dear worry, I'm not going to prison. Thank god. You know what they do to skinny white guys in prison?

No, it was the fact that a few people were just being dicks. Then it made me post a Dick head response above. I usually don't get that mad, but I did. And it wasn't based on anything in this thread or anyone in this thread. This just happened to be the thread I came to next.

But all is resolved. I'm just going to ignore those people. I try to get along with most everyone.

Anyway, Silencer please just keep the above post deleted. I'll re-write my thoughts later.

[worry]

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

Silencer, on 15 July 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

Can you honestly say that Dassem WON that fight? No. Because Rake got what he wanted. Rake manipulated Dassem in the middle of the most intense fight in the series. That puts Rake on such a ridiculous tier of skill that it is beyond reasonable. Given the man has had endless millennia of fighting the most powerful and skilled beings in the world, this is not really surprising. He fought his way through an indeterminate amount of Seguleh (it's implied to be many, imo), culminating in the Seventh ranked. At which point he decides he needs a bit of a breather. Rake is actually imbalanced. It's the reason he doesn't personally DO much in the series, because he'd basically be Deus Ex Machina, and because of the trend of Convergence meaning that he would always be putting himself at risk of attracting an endless stream of people wanting to take a shot at him, if he expended too much effort or power in one chunk. Hell, just to protect Dragnipur itself he gets a fuckload of powerful people in place beforehand. :S

Anyway, that's my take on all that. XD

Rake getting what he wanted does not mean he is better with a sword than Dassem. Being able to orchestrate your loss in any 1 v 1 scenario does not automatically make you better than the person you were competing against.

The whole premise of a competition or duel is that 2 contestants are on the same ground, fighting against each other towards the same end goal. That was not what was happening in the Rake/Dassem fight. All we truly learned from this fight was that Rake and Dassem are so skilled that they made Karsa shit himself. It is impossible to make any determination about what would have happened if they were really fighting just to see who was better because we have never seen them doing this.

[Brujah]

Rake could still take Dassem with ease. It's all opinion. And what the story leaves you with. In my opinion, Rake toyed with Dassem. Rake's skill is unmatched. Again my take. He allowed things to progress as they needed. He fought knowing he had to defend himself from Dassem's own sword the entire time, and give a well enough showing for the spectators. That was in the cards, so they say. The fact that it was seen. And while defending Dassem's sword, Rake had.to force Dassem into killing Rake with his own blade.

You're right that this alone doesn't definitely say that had they fought in earnest, with each attempting to skewers the other, that Rake would win. But Rake WOULD win based on everything else. He's the pinnacle badass.

As for Karsa being a coward, or saying that because Karsa watched the gift in awe, that he 'shit himself' is reaching. Anyone would have watched that fight in awe. John Elway and Dan Marino said the same thing of Peyton Manning as a quarter back. But all three are still the top ever. Had Brys witnessed the fight, he too would have been in awe. Who wouldn't have? And for Karsa, it was the first time he'd yet to see any top level fighting skill. Nothing yet had come close. And not only did he get to witness one of the greatest swordsman, but he got to see TWO of the top go at it.

In the series we as readers hardly get to see such match ups between such powerful opponents. And not only do we as readers not see it often, but the few times it does occur, there's not usually ANOTHER of the top warriors in audience. It's a unique event in the book. I still say it no where implied Karsa was frightened of either man. He admired their skills. Karsa was even looking at Dassem, whom he had actually befriended. He never gets to have many friends, thus it would also alter his view. Karsa seems to be a good judge of character whether we like it or not. I'm sure if it had been two evil aligned characters, instead of awe, he would have chose a different word. Like 'walking dead men.'

I'd give Karsa a fighting chance against Dassem easily. Rake I think never reveals his true power. He is more than likely the top of the warrior food chain. Or he shares it with Draconus, imo.

Karsa would never back down from anything. To accuse the one character who would LEAST be likely to be afraid is just wrong to me. Karsa attacks two Deragoth. He attacks the KCCM thing in the keep. Rake and Dassem may even be lucky Karsa didn't want them dead. He seems to be the character increasing in power the quickest. For at the early stages of his travel, he was able to be captured by malazan mages. Later we see him invoking his warren and seemingly become increasingly immune to magic far more powerful. I'd say Urko would have the best change defeating a warrior like Karsa.

[the broken]

Brujah, on 19 July 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

Rake could still take Dassem with ease. It's all opinion. And what the story leaves you with. In my opinion, Rake toyed with Dassem. Rake's skill is unmatched. Again my take. He allowed things to progress as they needed. He fought knowing he had to defend himself from Dassem's own sword the entire time, and give a well enough showing for the spectators. That was in the cards, so they say. The fact that it was seen. And while defending Dassem's sword, Rake had.to force Dassem into killing Rake with his own blade.

You're right that this alone doesn't definitely say that had they fought in earnest, with each attempting to skewers the other, that Rake would win. But Rake WOULD win based on everything else. He's the pinnacle badass.

As for Karsa being a coward, or saying that because Karsa watched the gift in awe, that he 'shit himself' is reaching. Anyone would have watched that fight in awe. John Elway and Dan Marino said the same thing of Peyton Manning as a quarter back. But all three are still the top ever. Had Brys witnessed the fight, he too would have been in awe. Who wouldn't have? And for Karsa, it was the first time he'd yet to see any top level fighting skill. Nothing yet had come close. And not only did he get to witness one of the greatest swordsman, but he got to see TWO of the top go at it.

In the series we as readers hardly get to see such match ups between such powerful opponents. And not only do we as readers not see it often, but the few times it does occur, there's not usually ANOTHER of the top warriors in audience. It's a unique event in the book. I still say it no where implied Karsa was frightened of either man. He admired their skills. Karsa was even looking at Dassem, whom he had actually befriended. He never gets to have many friends, thus it would also alter his view. Karsa seems to be a good judge of character whether we like it or not. I'm sure if it had been two evil aligned characters, instead of awe, he would have chose a different word. Like 'walking dead men.'

I'd give Karsa a fighting chance against Dassem easily. Rake I think never reveals his true power. He is more than likely the top of the warrior food chain. Or he shares it with Draconus, imo.

Karsa would never back down from anything. To accuse the one character who would LEAST be likely to be afraid is just wrong to me. Karsa attacks two Deragoth. He attacks the KCCM thing in the keep. Rake and Dassem may even be lucky Karsa didn't want them dead. He seems to be the character increasing in power the quickest. For at the early stages of his travel, he was able to be captured by malazan mages. Later we see him invoking his warren and seemingly become increasingly immune to magic far more powerful. I'd say Urko would have the best change defeating a warrior like Karsa.

Quote

"Karsa-"

"No. Only a fool would step between these two."

And the Toblakai sounded... shaken.