[Brujah]

You seem to have implied that Karsa is 'shaken' because he fears them. Why does he have a need to be 'shaken'?

My opinion wasn't that he was shaken because he sees two people whom have NO REASON to be attacking him in the neat future. No he imo, is shaken because he perceives what this fight may signify, or he is too aware of the convergence of powers in the city.

If Rake and Dassem were two people looking to kill Karsa, and Karsa knew it, then maybe him being shaken would signify to me what it signifies to you.

But I will say I completely understand your view, and it may be right. Hell, Karsa could have far worse characters to be frightened of. At least he wasn't watching Kallor and Spinnock and felt the same way. I like to imagine Karsa as one of the top badasses. He's one of my favorite chars to have read about. But id be ok if he HAD to rank below Rake and Dassem. I still say, though, that if he WAS scared, he was more frightened of Rake.

[HiddenOne]

I think he was shaken to become aware that he is not the most ultimate badness in the world at swordplay. There is a lesson that must be learned "There;s always someone better than you" - it is often forgotten by those who think themselves the best at something

[worry]

We know he was shaken, but was he stirred as well?

[Brujah]

HiddenOne, on 24 July 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

I think he was shaken to become aware that he is not the most ultimate badness in the world at swordplay. There is a lesson that must be learned "There;s always someone better than you" - it is often forgotten by those who think themselves the best at something

Yeah, I'm going to stop being stubborn and give in on this one. There was a scene in which Shadowthrone and Cotillon make a statement about Dassem killing them if he thought they had anything to do with his ship sinking. And I could see Cotillon giving anyone a run for their money, so Dassem probably kills Karsa with his speed alone.

I still say Rake beats Dassem.

[EmperorMagus]

I don't how SE imagines it but in my mind Rake kicks anyone's ass. Karsa is a close second though.

[Brujah]

EmperorMagus, on 01 August 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

I don't how SE imagines it but in my mind Rake kicks anyone's ass. Karsa is a close second though.

Knowing the ranks based on SEs own mind WOULD be entertaining. If nothing else, it'd be fun arguing against him.

Person. - "I'm fairly certain, SE, the author intended for Karsa to own all."

SE - "Ummmm, no."

[The Retired Bridgeburner]

I enjoyed the list!

I think I'd vote Rake at the top (as he is in the list) too.

I'm working on my other half to get him to read Malazan when he's done with the Dark Tower..... he currently knows Rake only as "Sword-wielding Badass"

[Vaddon Ra]

The Tyrant Lizard, on 03 December 2008 - 10:15 AM, said:

I found Iron Bars seemed almost like two different characters. If I had to bet money on the representation shown in MT i'd bet quite a lot, and he'd be right up there with the best. The one in RotCG just doesnt seem as hard. (I know they're the same, this is, I suppose one of the problems writing about the same character with two different authors.)

Actually, really good point, in ROTCG he has to challenge the least of them and, if I remember correctly, their crew have been starved and ill for some time. So even though he does beat Leal, just, he is definitely not at his best at all. In MT and SW he's at least had the chance to eat and rest before he fights

[Vaddon Ra]

Brujah, on 24 July 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

You seem to have implied that Karsa is 'shaken' because he fears them. Why does he have a need to be 'shaken'?

My opinion wasn't that he was shaken because he sees two people whom have NO REASON to be attacking him in the neat future. No he imo, is shaken because he perceives what this fight may signify, or he is too aware of the convergence of powers in the city.

If Rake and Dassem were two people looking to kill Karsa, and Karsa knew it, then maybe him being shaken would signify to me what it signifies to you.

But I will say I completely understand your view, and it may be right. Hell, Karsa could have far worse characters to be frightened of. At least he wasn't watching Kallor and Spinnock and felt the same way. I like to imagine Karsa as one of the top badasses. He's one of my favorite chars to have read about. But id be ok if he HAD to rank below Rake and Dassem. I still say, though, that if he WAS scared, he was more frightened of Rake.

I dont think he's frightened of them, or anything really. I think he was suddenly humbled when it came to displays of martial prowess which, up until that point, had never been an issue. He flat out challenges Dassem for Samar Dev when they first meet and finally when he sees him fight he's like "oh...Oh dear" XD it's not fear it's shock

[Abyss]

Vaddon Ra, on 14 March 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

...In MT and SW he's at least had the chance to eat and rest before he fights

Actually in MT Bars goes straight from the fight against the Pack to the fight against the Toblakai gods with just enough time to complain about his dead men and run from fight one to fight two.
In SW he's in marginally better shape than he was in RCG, at least physically.

[Nevyn]

My impression is that Icarium would be #1. All you can really do is make him madder until he eventually whipes you out, and then, you know, the whole city you were in. They just constantly give the impression that there's just nothing anybody can really do if Icarium loses it.

The others seem pretty tricky to compare. Too few head to head reference points

[Sibylle]

Nevyn, on 19 March 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

My impression is that Icarium would be #1. All you can really do is make him madder until he eventually whipes you out, and then, you know, the whole city you were in. They just constantly give the impression that there's just nothing anybody can really do if Icarium loses it.

The others seem pretty tricky to compare. Too few head to head reference points

I agree. Icarium is just bad ass, even the elder gods won't go against him! However, Rake could just send him into Dragnipur

What I really find confusing is how Rake could've won over Draconus in the old days. Draconus is clearly a major bad ass, uber strong and elder than elder. He had dragnipur and still Rake defeated him.
Compare that to a conversation in which Rake stated that fighting Shadowthrone and Cotillion would be a close call (even match), even though he has Dragnipur. This would thus imply that ST could kick Draconus' ass...but that is not the general opinion (of gods and 'elders') throughout the books.

And now you can say..wait a minute! This is about swordsmanship and not about power...but yeah they're kind of the same. Icarium is all powerful because he keeps coming at you with relentless magic and skill, even if you are technically better with the sword he would still win and thus be a better swordsman etc.

[the broken]

Sibylle, on 21 March 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 19 March 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

My impression is that Icarium would be #1. All you can really do is make him madder until he eventually whipes you out, and then, you know, the whole city you were in. They just constantly give the impression that there's just nothing anybody can really do if Icarium loses it.

The others seem pretty tricky to compare. Too few head to head reference points

I agree. Icarium is just bad ass, even the elder gods won't go against him! However, Rake could just send him into Dragnipur

What I really find confusing is how Rake could've won over Draconus in the old days. Draconus is clearly a major bad ass, uber strong and elder than elder. He had dragnipur and still Rake defeated him.
Compare that to a conversation in which Rake stated that fighting Shadowthrone and Cotillion would be a close call (even match), even though he has Dragnipur. This would thus imply that ST could kick Draconus' ass...but that is not the general opinion (of gods and 'elders') throughout the books.

And now you can say..wait a minute! This is about swordsmanship and not about power...but yeah they're kind of the same. Icarium is all powerful because he keeps coming at you with relentless magic and skill, even if you are technically better with the sword he would still win and thus be a better swordsman etc.

Anyone can beat anyone on any given day. Crokus (random thief) forced Vorcan(Mistress of Assassins) to retreat with a brick back in GOTM.

Dragnipur is a powerful sword, but it's still just a sword. If someone stands fifty yards away and throws magic at you, a sword will not dictate the outcome of the battle. It's only useful if you know how to cut someone with it. Ergo, Draconus can have a powerful sword and lose to a better fighter. Also, Rake was carrying Grief, which we know from TTH to be capable of matching Dragnipur strike for strike.

And your assumption that ST >Draconus doesn't work. We know that Rake beat Draconus. We do not know whether he won decisively, narrowly, or through luck. We do not know that Rake is holding that opinion of ST for a good reason. For example, ST is of the opinion that Traveller would kill both himself and Cotillion easily in TTH, but he's close to Rake's equal in combat. So where does that leave your assumption?

It's perfectly possible for an X beats Y beats Z beats X situation, rock paper scissors style.

[Nevyn]

I agree that the dragnipur effect is overrated. What makes it scary is what happens to you if you get cut/stabbed with it. So the wielder still has to be better than you.

As for Draconus and Rake, we don't even know for sure that they fought. We know that Draconus knew he'd end up in the sword before he even finished. So maybe they really fought, maybe they really fought but Envy interfered, maybe Draconus threw the fight, or maybe Draconus just handed him the sword and asked to be imprisoned in it to give him control over Kallor's curse. Probably have to wait 2 books to find out.

[Abyss]

Nevyn, on 21 March 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

I agree that the dragnipur effect is overrated. What makes it scary is what happens to you if you get cut/stabbed with it. So the wielder still has to be better than you.

As for Draconus and Rake, we don't even know for sure that they fought. We know that Draconus knew he'd end up in the sword before he even finished. So maybe they really fought, maybe they really fought but Envy interfered, maybe Draconus threw the fight, or maybe Draconus just handed him the sword and asked to be imprisoned in it to give him control over Kallor's curse. Probably have to wait 2 books to find out.

I vaguely recall it was stated somewhere that Drac expected help from Envy and she sided with Rake, which turned the fight against Drac, so this doesn't really spin the ho'd win either way.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 21 March 2013 - 08:47 PM, said:

Nevyn, on 21 March 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

I agree that the dragnipur effect is overrated. What makes it scary is what happens to you if you get cut/stabbed with it. So the wielder still has to be better than you.

As for Draconus and Rake, we don't even know for sure that they fought. We know that Draconus knew he'd end up in the sword before he even finished. So maybe they really fought, maybe they really fought but Envy interfered, maybe Draconus threw the fight, or maybe Draconus just handed him the sword and asked to be imprisoned in it to give him control over Kallor's curse. Probably have to wait 2 books to find out.

I vaguely recall it was stated somewhere that Drac expected help from Envy and she sided with Rake, which turned the fight against Drac, so this doesn't really spin the ho'd win either way.

Doesn't the grossly exaggerated account of this that Baruk reads in TtH (the one that keeps referencing "The Thousand Gods") mention Osseric and Spite as being involved, too?

This post has been edited by D'rek: 21 March 2013 - 08:52 PM

[worry]

I don't think Dragnipur (or any conventional weapon) would do you much good against Shadowthrone regardless. He'd never be foolish enough to become corporeal around anyone who'd do him harm.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i kinda doubt that he even can take corporeal form anymore.

[peaked in highschool osserc]

In my opnion the elite tier of fighters in wu are

1.Draconus (I believe it was mentioned his fight with rake lasted 3 days and keep in mind rake was wielding vengeance with presumably a singular will
2.a Anomander (kilamandros was of the opinion rake and brood were close to equals and it was too hard to tell who was better)
2.b Caladan Brood
3. Dassem
4. Hood
5. Cotillion
6. Silchas Ruin
7. Trull Sengar
8. Yedan Derryg
9. Icarium (he could be number 1 depending on how how far he is into his rage)
10. Sister Calm

This post has been edited by Dessembrae Lord of Tragedy: 16 April 2015 - 09:00 PM

[Vaddon Ra]

9. Icarium (he could be number 1 depending on how how far he is into his rage)
10. Sister Calm
[/quote]

remember though that icarium when not fully enraged is still faster attacking than nearly anyone. Karsa says so in HOC where his attack is so fast its snaps karsa's sword. When enraged he starts challenging Chaotic rage (its not even sure what warren it is, its not Phellack so it may be a chaotic version of a self imposed toblakai warren (remember toblakai can manifest their own warren (karsa does with his willpower, why not Icarium with rage, tainted with Chaos... mixed with his naturally mad fast Jhag skills...)

Well
I feel like Icarium when he gets anywhere near threatened is pretty much close to being on the loose. Hence why Mappo anytime Icarium was anywhere near a fight with anyone remotely powerful was frightened. in DG Icarium almost loses it fighting a couple Wolf D'ivers... so if he was to actually fight any of the above ascendants he would most likely kill half the world to beat them XD