[BeLeG]

Yeah Aptorian made some good points about the CG plot.
But I really think that ST/COT and the CG have made many moves according to their masterplans during the past 8 books that will be explained in Dust of Dream.We just cant see the connection yet

[Urb]

I expect Seren Pedac's kid to be 12 years old.


Also, from Toll the Hounds I got the impression that "dust of dreams" means something along the lines of the past is done, and just dust in the wind by now. So I expect to see something of a theme around that. Or not.

[Sty]

Urb, on Oct 19 2008, 01:28 PM, said:

Also, from Toll the Hounds I got the impression that "dust of dreams" means something along the lines of the past is done, and just dust in the wind by now. So I expect to see something of a theme around that. Or not.

Just from going by the title I'll be expecting revelations on Burn as she is the Sleeping Goddess. I just hope to god it doesn't also include going back to the Mhybe!
Wasn't Burn dying last we heard, her clay beings were withering and QB was really, really frightened after having witnessed the CG's effects on the world..

[Urb]

Burn eh?

For me, the title Dust of Dreams brings the Queen of Dreams to mind. Not so much Burn. But like you mentioned; the Crippled God is very much linked to Burn. It's all so complex I figure just about anything can happen. I just hope the tenth book doesn't end with some young girl in a hospital, waking up from a bad fever-induced coma, and HER NAME IS BURN!

...sorry

This post has been edited by Urb: 19 October 2008 - 02:30 PM

[Lisheo]

Urb, if that happens, I will hold YOU personally responsible

[Grief]

Memories of Ice, Bantam press, page 90.

Quote

"Servant, child of Burn! How much time? Until it is too late?"
"Not long," the creature replied. "It nears. The moment nears."
Panic gripped Quick Ben. "How close? Can you be more specific? I need to know what I can work with, friend. Please try!"
"Very soon. Tens. Tens of years, no more. The moment nears. Help us."

This is in MoI.
I would say that Burn will be a large part of the last two books, pretty central, whether its people trying to affect her, or her herself.
The quote shows how little time is left, and the CGs attacks seem on two fronts, the warrens, and burn.

Memories of Ice, Bantam press, page 239.

Quote

"I do not know. Her warren dies, surely, that at the least, even as it becomes the Crippled God's pathway into every other warren"

This shows that, if either one of these fronts that the CG attacks on fails, then the other fails with it.
I reckon a lot will be centered on the struggle to find a way to save Burn, and the warrens, without waking burn/removing from her flesh.

This post has been edited by Grief: 19 October 2008 - 02:37 PM

[flea]

Aptorian, on Oct 19 2008, 12:58 AM, said:

I hope that's not the case. I feel the other eight books have been build-up and a hell of a lot action needs to take place for the whole CG-plotline to start making sense.

My biggest problem with this series is that there's no feeling of impending doom.

That the last volume is named The Crippled God should help with your concerns, but I'm with you on the over-all feeling.

As a storyteller SE does not seem too concerned with tying together plot lines–Felisen fatter, anyone? It is, of course, difficult to judge since the series is not over. There have been comments that this is a reaction to other writers who seem too concerned with tying up loose ends, and SE and ICE are creating a world here.

I really don't agree. This is not a world; it is a series of novels. SE spends 200+ pages developing Karsa in HofC, follows his every footstep later, only to abandon him after TtH for ICE? If Karsa does not play a significant role in the last two volumes than I say SE is an artistic failure. He better return.

[polishgenius]

Grief, on Oct 19 2008, 03:37 PM, said:

Memories of Ice, Bantam press, page 90.

Quote

"Servant, child of Burn! How much time? Until it is too late?"
"Not long," the creature replied. "It nears. The moment nears."
Panic gripped Quick Ben. "How close? Can you be more specific? I need to know what I can work with, friend. Please try!"
"Very soon. Tens. Tens of years, no more. The moment nears. Help us."

This is in MoI.
I would say that Burn will be a large part of the last two books, pretty central, whether its people trying to affect her, or her herself.
The quote shows how little time is left, and the CGs attacks seem on two fronts, the warrens, and burn.

Memories of Ice, Bantam press, page 239.

Quote

"I do not know. Her warren dies, surely, that at the least, even as it becomes the Crippled God's pathway into every other warren"

This shows that, if either one of these fronts that the CG attacks on fails, then the other fails with it.
I reckon a lot will be centered on the struggle to find a way to save Burn, and the warrens, without waking burn/removing from her flesh.

In fairness though the timescale was affected at the end of the book by the Seer using his warren within Burn, slowing down the infection.

It's still a point and I think Burn will be involved, but it's no longer the matter of greatest urgency.

[Grief]

Urb. Just no. That so better not happen.
It would be on par with the warrens being destroyed(which has been mentioned) and the whole place turning out to be earth, way in the past. That would piss me off to no end.

[polishgenius]

flea, on Oct 19 2008, 04:17 PM, said:

Aptorian, on Oct 19 2008, 12:58 AM, said:

I hope that's not the case. I feel the other eight books have been build-up and a hell of a lot action needs to take place for the whole CG-plotline to start making sense.

My biggest problem with this series is that there's no feeling of impending doom.

That the last volume is named The Crippled God should help with your concerns, but I'm with you on the over-all feeling.

As a storyteller SE does not seem too concerned with tying together plot lines–Felisen fatter, anyone? It is, of course, difficult to judge since the series is not over. There have been comments that this is a reaction to other writers who seem too concerned with tying up loose ends, and SE and ICE are creating a world here.

I really don't agree. This is not a world; it is a series of novels. SE spends 200+ pages developing Karsa in HofC, follows his every footstep later, only to abandon him after TtH for ICE? If Karsa does not play a significant role in the last two volumes than I say SE is an artistic failure. He better return.

In fairness, though it annoyed me initially, after reading Return of the Crimson Guard I think as long as someone covers it I don't mind. Reading RotG, it's clear that ICE and SE don't regard their books as being in separate series - RotG is as much a sequel to House of Chains as the Bonehunters is.

[flea]

Of course debating anything here is pointless until the series ends, so I will stop before I become pedantic flea.

It is enough for me that I have enjoyed both authors through nine published books, and I will certainly devour DoD, CG, and Stonewielder. Have to give these guys credit for keeping me hooked through 12 books. I couldn't stand Jordan after the fifth or sixth book.

[blackzoid]

You know, i don't think the CG is that much of a threat compared to the chaos that chased the wagon inside Dragnipur. That was the universe destroying force, not the CG. In fact I don't think the CG will be destroyed, but may be redeemed instead. Not by the Redeemer though. Thats too similar to the Dying God fate.

Ever notice how through a book we never get to see a major chararter's pov until the end of the book for their almost final scene. And that scene usually changes how we feel about what they were doing throughout the book.
Examples:
Rake gets a viewpoint at the end of TtH and he muses when just about to perform the ritual on the wagon inside Dragnipur.
Icarium gets a viewpoint at the end of Reaper's Gale when he performs the ritual with his blood.
Silchas Ruin at the end of Reaper's Gale explaining his reasons for the quest to find Bloodeye's Finnest.
Fear gets a viewpoint at the end of Midnight Tides showing that he did agree with all of Trull's doubts.
Poliel gets a viewpoint just before she is killed by the Deragoth, explaining her reasons for the Seven cities plague.

Based on this precendence, The CG should get a viewpoint at the end of DoD or TCG explaining why he does what he does. He isn't a force of implacable hatred and destruction like Chaos, he is just an alian god. And he needs to be healed, not destroyed.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 19 October 2008 - 07:32 PM

[Tapper]

I'm not sure I can agree with you, Blackzoid. Sure, the CG is alien but his wish to corrupt is very visible. His imprisonment against Burn didn't attune him to this place (although it was probably never meant to do so), what else could? I doubt learning the national anthem and getting citizen registration will make a difference to him. More, the Tiste, Drakonus, the Eleint and several Elders don't seem exactly native to Wu as well, or can at the least wander to other worlds, but I haven't seen any of them wield the kind of corruption the Crippled God does, yet they can access their foreign warrens without any noticeable effect on Wu, so the fact that the CG is alien, should not have an effect on his magic on Wu either.

The flaws he seeks in his followers and the cruelty with which he inflicts damage upon for example Munug (sp., the artist who now is his prophet) makes fairly clear to me that he has a twisted mind, unless his power is twisted as well, that it can never heal but can only swap one infliction for another. Still, the might Kallor gained from the CG wasn't exactly corrupt in that aspect, so my guess is that his spreading of flaws and pain is a deliberate choice.

[Silencer]

Thinking about it, Burn is sleeping, yes? "She sleeps...to dream"

So, "Dust of Dreams" actually ties in with Burn as well. Could it be the dust of her dreams? I think it's quite possible.

[Aptorian]

Tapper, on Oct 20 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

I'm not sure I can agree with you, Blackzoid. Sure, the CG is alien but his wish to corrupt is very visible. His imprisonment against Burn didn't attune him to this place (although it was probably never meant to do so), what else could? I doubt learning the national anthem and getting citizen registration will make a difference to him. More, the Tiste, Drakonus, the Eleint and several Elders don't seem exactly native to Wu as well, or can at the least wander to other worlds, but I haven't seen any of them wield the kind of corruption the Crippled God does, yet they can access their foreign warrens without any noticeable effect on Wu, so the fact that the CG is alien, should not have an effect on his magic on Wu either.

The flaws he seeks in his followers and the cruelty with which he inflicts damage upon for example Munug (sp., the artist who now is his prophet) makes fairly clear to me that he has a twisted mind, unless his power is twisted as well, that it can never heal but can only swap one infliction for another. Still, the might Kallor gained from the CG wasn't exactly corrupt in that aspect, so my guess is that his spreading of flaws and pain is a deliberate choice.

This question of whether or not the CGs evil comes up again and again. Is what he's doing evil? yes, I would say so, but evil is not what drives his intentions. The CG is bound to Burns flesh, he's a crippled, broken wreck, living a tortured existance. His only goal is to either force Burns hand and kill him completely by flushing him out of her system, or killing her and gaining release as everything he has suffered through is turned back on the world.

The only thing he can offer his followers is pain and corruption.

[Osric]

the CG is not inherently evil, but then SE isnt as shallow to do the whole "evil overlord that enjoys killing for no reason" thing. the CG has his reasons, he's been subjected to eternal suffering and the only thing he can do is what he's doing, which happens to be pretty evil. I don't think the CG will be saved, I think he will be disposed off, however unfair it might be, fairness is not something that happens a lot in SE's books, or the real world.

I agree with Silencer here about the title, Dust of Dreams. Who's dreaming? Burn, tattersail with her t'lann imass. T'lann Imass also happen to turn into dust at will, connection?

I've not read rotcg so I don't know about all the stuff that's supposed to happen with Laseen but I get the feeling Tavore will be pitting the Bonehunters against the crippled god and it's been the plan all along. Mappo meeting up with Icarium, Paran doing awesome shit like usual, I'd love to see Apsalar again, with Crokus maybe.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I believe Tavore and the 14th will face off against the CG. However, I can't see how a mortal army is going to lock horns with a shadowy, slippery god. Perhaps they'll besiege his pocket warren.

[Lisheo]

"Mate, look, we know you're in the tent, just come out."
"No! My warren!"

[Aptorian]

Come into my tent said the Chained One to the Malazan Commander

[Tapper]

Aptorian, on Oct 20 2008, 09:51 AM, said:

Tapper, on Oct 20 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

I'm not sure I can agree with you, Blackzoid. Sure, the CG is alien but his wish to corrupt is very visible. His imprisonment against Burn didn't attune him to this place (although it was probably never meant to do so), what else could? I doubt learning the national anthem and getting citizen registration will make a difference to him. More, the Tiste, Drakonus, the Eleint and several Elders don't seem exactly native to Wu as well, or can at the least wander to other worlds, but I haven't seen any of them wield the kind of corruption the Crippled God does, yet they can access their foreign warrens without any noticeable effect on Wu, so the fact that the CG is alien, should not have an effect on his magic on Wu either.

The flaws he seeks in his followers and the cruelty with which he inflicts damage upon for example Munug (sp., the artist who now is his prophet) makes fairly clear to me that he has a twisted mind, unless his power is twisted as well, that it can never heal but can only swap one infliction for another. Still, the might Kallor gained from the CG wasn't exactly corrupt in that aspect, so my guess is that his spreading of flaws and pain is a deliberate choice.

This question of whether or not the CGs evil comes up again and again. Is what he's doing evil? yes, I would say so, but evil is not what drives his intentions. The CG is bound to Burns flesh, he's a crippled, broken wreck, living a tortured existance. His only goal is to either force Burns hand and kill him completely by flushing him out of her system, or killing her and gaining release as everything he has suffered through is turned back on the world.

The only thing he can offer his followers is pain and corruption.

Ah, well, this is the whole debate of intention of an action vs the actual effect of an action and what counts again. I'm also not exactly sure if he seeks death/ destruction.
If anything, self destruction/sacrifice has a higher goal for Erikson: it only really happens out of guilt, a higher purpose (T'lann Imass) or to save your fellow man (like so many soldiers), not so much as out of a suicidal dying wish... If anything, he glorifies the human survival instinct against the odds.
The CG's plans and motives and manipulation are too refined for merely wishing banishment and an end to his pain. Provoking Rake into some Dragnipuring would have simply resulted in that; his chains would be cut. Poisoning the warrens would be a lot closer to cause retalitation by an entity powerful enough to destroy him, more than manipulating the Short-Tails or the Pannion-Domin would: somehow, he hasn't got global meltdown high on his agenda, more a reshaping of it in his image.