[Aptorian]

Blend, on Oct 17 2008, 06:47 PM, said:

Karsa tends to have respect for good swordsmen, and saw that in Dassem right away. I'm sure he'd see it in Kallor as well, and their goals allign quite nicely to boot. I mean, Kallor thinks along the exact same lines as Karsa with the whole destroying civilization thing.

Actually I think Karsa and Dassem became friends because they're both powerfull but also relatively simple people. Their goals aren't complex, only the remaifications of their intended goals. It also just happens that their goals didn't conflict and they both chose to set what ever differences aside they may have. Karsa and Kallor could never travel as companions seeing as they both have massive egoes and there wouldn't be room for the same acceptance.

I'd like to see them fight though. Kallor has apparently fought giants before and killed them... hell, he's also killed Jaghut and Dragons.

[ch'arlz]

Aptorian, on Oct 17 2008, 01:07 PM, said:

Actually I think Karsa and Dassem became friends because they're both powerfull but also relatively simple people.... Karsa and Kallor could never travel as companions seeing as they both have massive egoes and there wouldn't be room for the same acceptance.

I think they became friends because they each recognized the absence of BS in the other. I actually think Kallor could appreciate that about Karsa but couldn't reciprocate.

[Lisheo]

I really want to hear more about the Just Wars between the FA and Liosan, it just sounds wicked tbh. I know we wont in this series, but Se is writing a series later set in the Eldering Ages, so fingers crossed.

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Oct 17 2008, 02:14 PM, said:

So what's going on in Lether?

We have the 14th army, which will be recouperating and probably getting new supplies, ships, gold, etc. while they're holed up outside the capital. I could imagine that Stormy and Gesler will perhaps bump into Fener while they're staying there. Bottle might take a lesson in Hold magic.

I can see Stormy and Gesler bumping into Fener while the downtrodden people of Letheras embrace the diversity of the Malazan way with a certain independance and god worship.

Aptorian, on Oct 17 2008, 02:14 PM, said:

You have the Perish Tavore sent around the continent to hit the empire from the other side. We didn't actually hear anything about them after they sailed off, so the question is if Tavore sent them on a more significant mission than just landing on the east coast.

After a couple of rereads I figured the "bolkando" Alliance was mostly the Perish and Kundryl Bruned Tears kicking ass in the eastern part of Lether

Aptorian, on Oct 17 2008, 02:14 PM, said:

You have the Whiteface Barghast led by Tool. Tool was pretty pissed at the end and it could be that he intends to take the Capital. Never mind the Letherii, the question is if this will put the Whiteface on a collision course with the 14th? Will Tavore, urged by the veterans in her company, honor the "Malazan alliance" from MoI? Or will she stick up for the Letherii and stand against 70.000 tribal warriors? Of course maybe the Whiteface will just continue wandering.

Were not the Whiteface Barghast intending to go east all along except that Tool hung around to vipe out Bivatt's army and the Awl. I never thought Tool held a grudge against all of Lether.

Aptorian, on Oct 17 2008, 02:14 PM, said:

You have the growing cult of the Errant. Will he attempt to meddle with the 14ths affairs? Is he pursuing his attack on the Houses? Is he an enemy of Paran? What about his opponents in the Malazan Empire, Oponn.

I thought the reveresed. the cult of the Errant is out. With the Errant himself taking out Feather Witch and Mael laying the smackdown on the Errant I figured He'll go back to his early MT days. I'm holding out hope that a weakened Errant gets jumped by Fener who'll "steal" the Errant power to resurect himself.

Aptorian, on Oct 17 2008, 02:14 PM, said:

Mappo might be showing up in Lether soon. If nothing else to find the ruins and loose track of his friend, or mayhaps Mappo will seek out Icarium and save him from what ever situation the machine landed him in.

I always thought it was Icarium's machine that turned up in TTH. After all Bellrudan/Dying God was not the operator of the machine, merely a "passanger". Who's to say Icarium didn't wander off before Bellrudan/Dying God was found

Aptorian, on Oct 17 2008, 02:14 PM, said:

Finally there's Seren Pedac. It seemed significant that Mocra emerges all of a sudden and begins making her its "Mortal Mindfucker". Will Mocra perhaps be a part of the solution to the CG problem? Will Pedac simply "will" the CG out of existance?

The Mokra voice, to me, seems evil. I could see theCG or a Mallick Rel talking when it spoke to SEren Pedac. It's seem too eager to promote itself and encouarge Seren to experiment on the others.

[buddhacat]

Ammanas, on Oct 16 2008, 06:09 PM, said:

Malaclypse, on Oct 16 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

What do we know for sure?

What do we expect?

What would we like to see in this book?

Discuss.

Well, after TTH, I've learned my expectations are certain to be misplaced so I'll just state what I would like to see.

1)Kalam awakening in the Azath
2)Edgewalker actively helping ST/COT secure allies that won't rip their heads off.
3)the Hounds of Light master's identity revealed
4)a clarification of the QoD/Leoman/Dunsparrow/Loric thread
5)the fate or role of the souls freed from Dragnipur
6)more about Fisher's past
7)the story behind the pickled Seguleh
8) the history of Lazan/Madrun/Studlock and the "revenants" in One-Eyed Cat
9)Paran--where is he and what trouble is he in?
10) Karsa CLEAVING Kallor in half
11) CONCRETE details about ST's "master" plan
12) Apsalar re-entering the picture

I see about 10% of this being covered by SE in the remaining 2 books. The whole Darujhistan thread is off into ICE territory.

[alt146]

I think if the CG does get super-azathed, it will be with the dragon-blood house. I dunno why I'm so obsessed over that thing, it just seemed really important when I read it. Although I think some sort of redemption of the CG would be nice. Not in a heartwarming, tied-with-a-bow kinda way. Just for someone to realise that the CG's power comes from his disfigurement. If he was somehow robbed of that, he'd be just another ascendant, bound by Paran to the pantheon.

I'd also really like to see ST somehow pull all the scattered fragments of Shadow back together.

[Aptorian]

Urizen, on Oct 17 2008, 10:46 PM, said:

I can see Stormy and Gesler bumping into Fener while the downtrodden people of Letheras embrace the diversity of the Malazan way with a certain independance and god worship.

I don't think the Letherii have a good idea about the concept of change. Their entire society is distinctly different from the values of the Malazan. I could imagine that there might actually be clashes. The remaining Loyalists and the secret police for startersl

On the other hand, maybe the 14th will leave Lether with a whole new batch of recruits.

Quote

Were not the Whiteface Barghast intending to go east all along except that Tool hung around to vipe out Bivatt's army and the Awl. I never thought Tool held a grudge against all of Lether.

Well, if we're to believe the timeline the whiteface had been trekking all over Lether during the last year or two, travelling in the Tellan warren. So I don't think they were just heading through.

The ending of RG had it sounding like Tool wouldn't settle with just destroying the Letherii army. The Awl were to be destroyed, why not the Letherii aswell.

Quote

I thought the reveresed. the cult of the Errant is out. With the Errant himself taking out Feather Witch and Mael laying the smackdown on the Errant I figured He'll go back to his early MT days. I'm holding out hope that a weakened Errant gets jumped by Fener who'll "steal" the Errant power to resurect himself.

The Cult of the Errant was growing at the ending of RG, Seren Pedac or Mael makes a remark about this. So the Errant has a whole new powerbase of worshippers. It could be that he's taking a direct involvement through his connection with the Holds and Houses.

Quote

I always thought it was Icarium's machine that turned up in TTH. After all Bellrudan/Dying God was not the operator of the machine, merely a "passanger". Who's to say Icarium didn't wander off before Bellrudan/Dying God was found

I like to think it was Icariums machine aswell. Only if Iccy had arrived on Genebackis I think we'd have known. Rake or Brood or The Burn priests would had been alarmed. I also think there'd only be a smoking crater where the Dying Gods temple was if Iccy had seen the Dying Gods corruption.

Quote

The Mokra voice, to me, seems evil. I could see theCG or a Mallick Rel talking when it spoke to SEren Pedac. It's seem too eager to promote itself and encouarge Seren to experiment on the others.

It didn't seem evil to me at all. Just superior in the way that ascendants always seem. It reminded me of K'ruls personality when he spoke in the head of ENvy in MoI.

[Grief]

Warrens are very interwound with dragons, and their blood.
Someone is killing dragons.

If there is only one dragon left supporting mockra, and it is arrogant, doesn't it follow the warren becomes so aswell.

[Aptorian]

Grief, on Oct 18 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

Warrens are very interwound with dragons, and their blood.
Someone is killing dragons.

If there is only one dragon left supporting mockra, and it is arrogant, doesn't it follow the warren becomes so aswell.

As far as I remember Mocra is a living, seperate entity. It's not a warren and it's not a dragon. It's the conciousness of all the warrens.

I think Mocra said something in the lines of the conciousness being needed to form the warrens. That's how K'rull designed it.

There's also another side of Mocra, it's opposite that is always turned away or something. That's one of the mysteries of that conversation. I remember someone suggesting that opposite was the Abyss but I don't know why.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 18 October 2008 - 04:07 PM

[Lisheo]

Mockra has to be a Dragon. All of the Warrens are made from both Krul's blood and Dragons, right? Well, in that case, it makes sense that if a consciousness claims to be mockra, then its the Mockra Dragon, not K'rul. Because a warren can't be aware. I personally think Mockra is a Dragon with all the thoughts of everyone stuffed inside it, thats why it seems so arrogant, it truly is omnipresent.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i dont think the connection between the warrens and their aspected dragons is as straightforward as that lisheo. my main problem is "mockra has to be a dragon" this just isnt so. mockra may be shaped and powered by a dragon, but that does not necessarily mean that the dragons voice is the voice of the warren. k'rul put some serious strictures on his system when he brought the dragons into it, i dont think he would let a dragon represent itself as the warren. mockra's voice i think is more of a product of the warren system. the paths (K"ruls warrens) have been compared to a biological system, like a body, and mockra as the warren of mind is the mouthpiece, the lips. its an entity above and beyond its powersource (dragons)

i mean, when you listen to a radio, its not the battery thats talking

[Lisheo]

Wasn't it mockra itself that said it was the mouthpiece though?

[Urizen]

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 03:12 PM, said:

I don't think the Letherii have a good idea about the concept of change. Their entire society is distinctly different from the values of the Malazan. I could imagine that there might actually be clashes. The remaining Loyalists and the secret police for startersl

On the other hand, maybe the 14th will leave Lether with a whole new batch of recruits.

Yes, the Letherii don't have a good idea about change, BUT with Lether collapsing and the Letherii having shining examples of sucessful people, i.e the malazans, in front of them I can see them becoming "wannabe Malazans". Didn't the secret police get more or less viped out? I seem to recall Venitt Sathad telling Orbyn Truthfinder how the Patriotists would be the blood sacrifice offered to appease the rioting masses.

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 03:12 PM, said:

Well, if we're to believe the timeline the whiteface had been trekking all over Lether during the last year or two, travelling in the Tellan warren. So I don't think they were just heading through.

The ending of RG had it sounding like Tool wouldn't settle with just destroying the Letherii army. The Awl were to be destroyed, why not the Letherii aswell.

Didn't the WFB "just" travel across the Awl'dan and eastern Lether?

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 03:12 PM, said:

The Cult of the Errant was growing at the ending of RG, Seren Pedac or Mael makes a remark about this. So the Errant has a whole new powerbase of worshippers. It could be that he's taking a direct involvement through his connection with the Holds and Houses.

It was? I remember Seren thinking Mael being a deluded Errant worshiper but not that The Cult of the Errant was growing. Also, I felt it was implied at the end that Mael took care of the Errant for his actions with Theol and Trull.

Aptorian, on Oct 18 2008, 03:12 PM, said:

I like to think it was Icariums machine aswell. Only if Iccy had arrived on Genebackis I think we'd have known. Rake or Brood or The Burn priests would had been alarmed. I also think there'd only be a smoking crater where the Dying Gods temple was if Iccy had seen the Dying Gods corruption.

Maybe Iccy was wounded and spent TTH healing in some remote cave and never knew about the Dying God or something. Maybe Iccy developed new skills and are able to hide from other ascendants and priests. Also, Rake and Brood did have a lot of other things to occupy themselves with.

[polishgenius]

Blend, on Oct 17 2008, 05:47 PM, said:

Karsa tends to have respect for good swordsmen, and saw that in Dassem right away. I'm sure he'd see it in Kallor as well, and their goals allign quite nicely to boot. I mean, Kallor thinks along the exact same lines as Karsa with the whole destroying civilization thing.

One fundamental difference: Karsa wants to bring it all down so that there are no rulers, Kallor wants to bring it all down pretty much out of petulance, and iirc wants to erect a throne and call himself King once he's done. They'd come to blows I think for certain.

[Stefan]

As long as there's a large focus on Whiskeyjack and the other dead Bridgeburners I'll be happy. This will probably happen too since they don't really have to follows Hood's advice about going to their gods since of their cirmustances.

[caladanbrood]

My single piece of speculation, after having talked to Steve a few times and knowing that we can't rely on him to answer the questions we might expect him to, is that Dust of Dreams will be the single most disappointing book in the series... especially among those who are detractors already after TtH. If the last two books are one big buildup to a huge big finale, then the first half will be... all buildup. Not a problem for me, but others will be annoyed, I suspect.

[Lisheo]

The cliff-hanger we've been led to believe ends the book is gonna make me cry

[Silencer]

Have to agree with Brood, there.

Can't see a lot of revelations/confrontations. Maybe a few. But not really.

[Aptorian]

caladanbrood, on Oct 19 2008, 01:11 AM, said:

My single piece of speculation, after having talked to Steve a few times and knowing that we can't rely on him to answer the questions we might expect him to, is that Dust of Dreams will be the single most disappointing book in the series... especially among those who are detractors already after TtH. If the last two books are one big buildup to a huge big finale, then the first half will be... all buildup. Not a problem for me, but others will be annoyed, I suspect.

I hope that's not the case. I feel the other eight books have been build-up and a hell of a lot action needs to take place for the whole CG-plotline to start making sense.

My biggest problem with this series is that there's no feeling of impending doom. No urgency to deal with the CG. The CG doesn't even seem scary any longer, more of a bumbling madman whose work continually stays behind the scenes so the reader has no idea of what the CGs game is if there even is any. The series to me has a strange make-up as you'd think that the CG problem should be the main focus, but it isn't really, all kinds of other problems take the fore, and you don't even get the feeling that the CG is in control of any of these events.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 19 October 2008 - 07:59 AM

[Silencer]

Well, perhaps that's the point. DoD will have all that - it's going to be revelations. Chaotic revelations I hope...