[Lisheo]

Well, I've always seen Stormy and Gesler as just messing around, not gay in the open way, but more just two men who have odd senses of humour, perhaps.
But, as I said before, Cotillion should be gay (you know what I meant, Blend, lol)
I wouldn't necessarily say Gorlas is gay. He simply doesn't find Challice attractive. Should I meet someone like her in real life, I probably wouldn't either And he just likes the idea of being in control, also.
Sirryn Kanar is a different kettle of fish. I don't view him as gay anymore, actually. I view him as perverted and a complete bastard. You can't use him as a template for homosexual men, just as you can't use rapists as a template for heterosexual men.
As for pedophilia, again, that's not gay, that's just fucked up.
So I wouldn't say gay people have been portrayed in a negative light, as such, certainly not if S&G are gay, or any of the majority of the soldiers in the Malaz Armies are, but perverts and sexual deviants are.

[Blend]

Lisheo, on Nov 7 2008, 12:58 PM, said:

Well, I've always seen Stormy and Gesler as just messing around, not gay in the open way, but more just two men who have odd senses of humour, perhaps.
But, as I said before, Cotillion should be gay (you know what I meant, Blend, lol)
I wouldn't necessarily say Gorlas is gay. He simply doesn't find Challice attractive. Should I meet someone like her in real life, I probably wouldn't either And he just likes the idea of being in control, also.
Sirryn Kanar is a different kettle of fish. I don't view him as gay anymore, actually. I view him as perverted and a complete bastard. You can't use him as a template for homosexual men, just as you can't use rapists as a template for heterosexual men.
As for pedophilia, again, that's not gay, that's just fucked up.
So I wouldn't say gay people have been portrayed in a negative light, as such, certainly not if S&G are gay, or any of the majority of the soldiers in the Malaz Armies are, but perverts and sexual deviants are.

Of course, you could argue that most of the characters in MBotF are sexually perverted deviants.... heh.

[Jude]

okok, so we'll have it rest at Gorlas not being gay and we can even say that Sirryn isn't. At that point it's just the chancellor right? Now I wasn't saying pedophilia was gay, but I'm PRETTY sure Gnol isn't all about the little girls. It's just about the little boys with him. Isn't it?

[Lisheo]

Which is offset by Bidithal in HoC who is all about girls... And is no less disgusting than Triban Gnol.

[Jude]

haha this is true! HowEVER, the point remains that we still don't have any for sure for sure dudes who like dudes in a way that isn't a wrong weird disgusting way, as opposed to the many chicks who dig chicks in a totally ok exciting fun way. I suppose we just gotta keep on gunnin' for the Cot man, not that I'm even that adamant about any of this anyway.

[Sinisdar Toste]

itll come out in an interview once SE is done the series

"Oh btw guys, just kind of a note, WJ was gay, like totally gay. anyhow..."

[Mcflury]

hmmm... WJ and Dujek... I guess they must have had some steaming moments in that command tent

Admiral Nok is probably gay... I mean, he's a sailor, right? (no offence to sailors )

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Anyone else think we're getting a bit carried away?

Next thing you know someone'll say Nok, Crust and Urko were a theesome.

Oh noes!

[Blend]

Ain't_It_Just_, on Nov 8 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

Anyone else think we're getting a bit carried away?

Next thing you know someone'll say Nok, Crust and Urko were a theesome.

Oh noes!

They were, weren't they? I mean, a fearsome threesome of Old Guard badasses, yes?

[Lisheo]

Along with Duiker, WJ, and Dancer.

[Jude]

OR get this... Scillara Blend and Picker! Can you imagine?

[Osric]

Jude, on Nov 11 2008, 01:10 AM, said:

OR get this... Scillara Blend and Picker! Can you imagine?

No I never did. I mean I couldnt. I mean maybe yeah.
Damn it

[Ain't_It_Just_]

I'm finding myself appalled, disturbed and profoundly interested.

[Jude]

oh GROW up, Ain't it just.

[Steaming Pile of Pust]

I think for a great example of a gay "good" character, you can draw an example from Omar from The Wire. Omar was an amazingly deep character, a stickup man who robbed the drug dealers with ruthless efficiency and complete disregard for other people, but lived by a code of honor that NO ONE else had. The fact that Omar was gay just added to the complexity of his character and his badass "I don't give a fuck" attitude. It didn't define him, although it infuriated the drug dealers he was heisting (see African American prop 8 voting breakdown for another reason why), it was simply offered as a part of Omar, nothing more.



---Misses The Wire, and Omar.

[eekwibble]

Don't grow up AIJ! It's crap in adultland!

Not to put too fine a point on it but SE writes to his projected audience just like any other author. Most young/middle aged/old males find lesbianism a complete turn on. He writes for a "wide audience" sure, but just have a look at the majority sex and age stats for this site. The majority that are reading this stuff are young guys. Most young guys love lesbianism.

Lesbianism ftw!

[Epiph]

Lisheo, on Nov 7 2008, 06:58 AM, said:

So I wouldn't say gay people have been portrayed in a negative light, as such, certainly not if S&G are gay, or any of the majority of the soldiers in the Malaz Armies are, but perverts and sexual deviants are.

I have absolutely no problem with abusive and perverse sexual deviance (as opposed to the fun, consensual, and perverse sexual deviance) being portrayed in a negative light. In fact, kudos to SE for addressing those issues (although I would give him more kudos if he approached them with a little more nuance).

However, it is only male homosexuality in MBotF that is portrayed as abusive and perverse sexual deviance, not female homosexuality (I am not including Bidithal; while perverse, his actions are not homosexual in nature). This is damaging because, without the mitigating presence of positively portrayed male homosexuality, it reinforces the negative stereotypes that proliferate in our culture.

Dribblebib, on Nov 12 2008, 07:51 AM, said:

Not to put too fine a point on it but SE writes to his projected audience just like any other author. Most young/middle aged/old males find lesbianism a complete turn on. He writes for a "wide audience" sure, but just have a look at the majority sex and age stats for this site. The majority that are reading this stuff are young guys. Most young guys love lesbianism.

Lesbianism ftw!

It does not in anyway absolve SE, as a better, more literary, and more nuanced writer than the vast majority of fantasy authors, from approaching the subject without thought. Clearly, SE finds the bicurious ladies titillating, but that is exactly what I find so disappointing about the whole subject of sexuality in MBotF. By all means, find bicurious ladies titillating, but writing about it, it ends up reading like fanfic.

[Osric]

Epiph, on Nov 12 2008, 05:23 PM, said:

Dribblebib, on Nov 12 2008, 07:51 AM, said:

Not to put too fine a point on it but SE writes to his projected audience just like any other author. Most young/middle aged/old males find lesbianism a complete turn on. He writes for a "wide audience" sure, but just have a look at the majority sex and age stats for this site. The majority that are reading this stuff are young guys. Most young guys love lesbianism.

Lesbianism ftw!

It does not in anyway absolve SE, as a better, more literary, and more nuanced writer than the vast majority of fantasy authors, from approaching the subject without thought. Clearly, SE finds the bicurious ladies titillating, but that is exactly what I find so disappointing about the whole subject of sexuality in MBotF. By all means, find bicurious ladies titillating, but writing about it, it ends up reading like fanfic.

I agree with the first part of your post but I have to disargee with the last part. SE doesn't write it in detail, he hints at it, he says it happens, and thats it. Although I do think that if there was at least one homosexual thing going on that was in a positive way then the whole thing would be potrayed a lot better. I really detest prudish stuff in books, like Wheel of Time. It's kind of like, I want to at least once have a hint that a character is going for a shit, just so I know that they do. Maybe it's just me but when I watch shows like Star Trek I really wonder where the hell the toilets are.

[Epiph]

Osric, on Nov 12 2008, 10:31 AM, said:

Maybe it's just me but when I watch shows like Star Trek I really wonder where the hell the toilets are.

I dunno about the ensigns and stuff, but the officers have bathrooms in their quarters. There's an episode of TNG where they all de-evolve and Troy becomes some amphibious thing in her bathroom.

God, I'm a nerd.

[Jude]

Watch Deep Space Nine. That is one Star Trek that doesn't fuck around SO much that they have a fully filmed "taking a dump" scene atLEAST once an episode.

As for the prudish issue, looking back I actually don't mind Jordan for benig a pussy about scenes like that. It's endearing in his southern gentleman way. When I got into Martin I was all "OH MAN! THIS GUY DOES NOT MESS AROUND!" but now, thinking about it, his graphic scenes almost seem more like a gimmick than "artistic expression" or whatever. So I'm thinking that the Malazan meets Wot and ASOIAF in the middle for the perfect amount. Just my two cents.