[phart]

Blend, on Nov 7 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

Lisheo, on Nov 7 2008, 12:58 PM, said:

Well, I've always seen Stormy and Gesler as just messing around, not gay in the open way, but more just two men who have odd senses of humour, perhaps.
But, as I said before, Cotillion should be gay (you know what I meant, Blend, lol)
I wouldn't necessarily say Gorlas is gay. He simply doesn't find Challice attractive. Should I meet someone like her in real life, I probably wouldn't either And he just likes the idea of being in control, also.
Sirryn Kanar is a different kettle of fish. I don't view him as gay anymore, actually. I view him as perverted and a complete bastard. You can't use him as a template for homosexual men, just as you can't use rapists as a template for heterosexual men.
As for pedophilia, again, that's not gay, that's just fucked up.
So I wouldn't say gay people have been portrayed in a negative light, as such, certainly not if S&G are gay, or any of the majority of the soldiers in the Malaz Armies are, but perverts and sexual deviants are.

Of course, you could argue that most of the characters in MBotF are sexually perverted deviants.... heh.

You could argue that most people are, )and very well if one were allowed to disclose patient/doctor confidentiality), we just don't tell everyone about it. I've done stuff i wouldn't want to tell anyone. lol

[phart]

Epiph, on Nov 12 2008, 05:23 PM, said:

Lisheo, on Nov 7 2008, 06:58 AM, said:

So I wouldn't say gay people have been portrayed in a negative light, as such, certainly not if S&G are gay, or any of the majority of the soldiers in the Malaz Armies are, but perverts and sexual deviants are.

I have absolutely no problem with abusive and perverse sexual deviance (as opposed to the fun, consensual, and perverse sexual deviance) being portrayed in a negative light. In fact, kudos to SE for addressing those issues (although I would give him more kudos if he approached them with a little more nuance).

However, it is only male homosexuality in MBotF that is portrayed as abusive and perverse sexual deviance, not female homosexuality (I am not including Bidithal; while perverse, his actions are not homosexual in nature). This is damaging because, without the mitigating presence of positively portrayed male homosexuality, it reinforces the negative stereotypes that proliferate in our culture.

Dribblebib, on Nov 12 2008, 07:51 AM, said:

Not to put too fine a point on it but SE writes to his projected audience just like any other author. Most young/middle aged/old males find lesbianism a complete turn on. He writes for a "wide audience" sure, but just have a look at the majority sex and age stats for this site. The majority that are reading this stuff are young guys. Most young guys love lesbianism.

Lesbianism ftw!

It does not in anyway absolve SE, as a better, more literary, and more nuanced writer than the vast majority of fantasy authors, from approaching the subject without thought. Clearly, SE finds the bicurious ladies titillating, but that is exactly what I find so disappointing about the whole subject of sexuality in MBotF. By all means, find bicurious ladies titillating, but writing about it, it ends up reading like fanfic.

Excactly it doesn't absolve, its like saying its ok to ban homosexuals from working, purely because it was the wishes of the "projected audience" or their party members or banning mixed race marriages etc.

I don't find the scenes erotic at all,i prefer the other action and it is a bit like fanfic, its hardly Birdsong that's for sure.

[phart]

Jude, on Nov 12 2008, 07:03 PM, said:

Watch Deep Space Nine. That is one Star Trek that doesn't fuck around SO much that they have a fully filmed "taking a dump" scene atLEAST once an episode.

As for the prudish issue, looking back I actually don't mind Jordan for benig a pussy about scenes like that. It's endearing in his southern gentleman way. When I got into Martin I was all "OH MAN! THIS GUY DOES NOT MESS AROUND!" but now, thinking about it, his graphic scenes almost seem more like a gimmick than "artistic expression" or whatever. So I'm thinking that the Malazan meets Wot and ASOIAF in the middle for the perfect amount. Just my two cents.

Someone once said to me in response to the incosistency of Martins "graphic scenes"


"why has Bran never shat down hodors back"

I didn't have an answer to that.

[Excellence]

I affirm: I am not anti-gay. I simply prefer not to read homosexual romance in books. However, neither do I particularly want to read lesbianism in books either. I did not like the inncessant porn of Ice and Fire, but that's the price you pay to read his story, and he can write a story that draws you in.

I don't really recall any explicit les/homo in the Malazan novels. Whatever I read was mere inferences, offhand mentions, never showed, and I appreciated Erikson doing that.

Neither do I find lesbian romance "horny" to read. Any author I see showing sleaze just for the sake of it loses future income from me, indefinitely. I'm reading a book for leisure and a serious story, not crap. Gosh, I love thise crazy icons...

For eg, currently reading Lies of Locke Lamora. Saturated with profanity like a Hutt's entrails spilled all over a carpet, but excellent maturity and engaging storyline.

This post has been edited by Excellence: 22 November 2008 - 12:49 PM

[Fiddler]

So we all agree Gesler and Stormy ARE gay then?

Like two gay Manbear types crashing together in the wilderness and rubbing their chestfurs together to make 'Lightning'!!! (who says gayness can't be exciting? that was Lightning right there!!!)

(quick insertion of humor into the thread there, straight from the backside!)

[amphibian]

phart, on Nov 19 2008, 11:54 AM, said:

Someone once said to me in response to the incosistency of Martins "graphic scenes"

"why has Bran never shat down hodors back"

I didn't have an answer to that.

AHAHAHAHAH. AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAA. AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAA.

He probably wouldn't mind it either.

[Excellence]

The first time I read someone peeing their breeches, that guy in Storm of Sword's prologue, I burst out laughing. A hilarious chapter all up. The hounds eager to get home, thinking they were getting some dinner. Instead, he gave them a kick in the stomach and that quietened their eager whining some. Then it's so cold he's sorely tempted to dive in and huddle up with them.

Say what you will about Martin, for a porn writer he has a taste of humour.

[Jude]

hahaha oh god. It just hit me that Martin is going to go down in history as an erotic fiction writer instead of a fantasy author... not to derail the thread