[Wry]

***














I found the whole "jaghut war on death" a bit confusing, how can you fight death, why would the jaghut do it etc. Until...

Something i read in another thread clicked with me and i think i get it now.

Maybe death refered to isn't Death, ie the process of one person dying, or the house, hold, whatever called Death. Think instead of death as a euphamism for "entropic decay" (thank you hunch!), like that caused by the K'chain curse. and so it was the K'chain and their curse that the Jhagut faught against.

It makes sense, The k'chain were overlords to the Jhagut. It's also been stated that they rebelled and fought for their freedom... indeed it's hinted that they did this, at least partially, to protect other sentient races - imass anyway.

So how does this sound - Jhagut are slave to the lizards for generations, lizards unlease this massive world destroying curse, Jhagut are finally spurred on to rise up and might their once masters (joined by dragons, who don't want to see existance ended, plus maybe some history with their wayward spawn), Jhagut fight and die in their millions, lizards are defeated, curse is not but instead traped in the sword by one of the dragons.

And then it makes Hoods actions in Draginipur more explainable... that was the last act in the war against the curse.

So how does it hold up?

[Aptorian]

It doesn't really hold up at all but that's mostly because we don't know enough.

If there at one point was a million Jaghut warriors then there's no way you're going to convince me that they were subjugated by the KCCM. Nothing could control such a civilizationt. It sounds more probable that the KCCM conquered the Jaghut after they lost the fight against death.

Someone else proposed that perhaps the Jaghut gained their immortality in their fight against death. I don't find that very probably either.

Since the war on death is described as being an impossibility I think it might have been a war just like Hoods army fighting Chaos. It's unwinable because you can defeat a constant.

Ahh, heck, the very notion of that fight does my head in so I prefer not thinking about it...

[Dance]

Weren't the KCCM devastated by a "civil war" when they resurrected the short tails? The impression I had was that they defeated themselves, allowing the lesser races (Jaghut/FA/TTT) to rise to prominence.

[Aptorian]

That is true.

Allthough some things suggest that it may not have been as clear cut as "KCCM are dominant all else are slaves".

The KCCM are described as having been mountain dvellers. I think that's where they primarily lived. Meanwhile there existed FA and Jaghut civilizations along with them... and Eres'al in the trees and other stuff.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Perhaps they sought to seize or destroy the then realm of death, or at least the people or rulers of that realm. This would probably be the one seen in BH. Once this was done they would have no fear of death, as the realm would be under their control. Does that make sense?

[Aptorian]

Could be. It's just the way that Tulas Shorn puts it. It sounded like the war was folly from the start, and it doesn't sound like the Jaghut simply lost to superior numbers.

[HoosierDaddy]

Dance;354538 said:

Weren't the KCCM devastated by a "civil war" when they resurrected the short tails? The impression I had was that they defeated themselves, allowing the lesser races (Jaghut/FA/TTT) to rise to prominence.

The inhabitants of Wu were also actively seeking to repel K'Chain invasions. In TBH Icarium and Mappo discover a Moon's Spawn that was incased in Omtose Phelleck.

TBH 190:

Mappo:

Quote

"Yet this creature here was frozen, so it must have been encompassed in the Jaghut's ritual of Omtose Phellack...."

TBH 191:

Icarium: "

Quote

I know this Jaghut. I recognize her work. The carelessness in the unleashing of Omtose Phellack. She was...distraught. Impatient, angry, weary of the endless paths the K'Chain Che'Malle employed in their efforts to invade, to establish colonies on every continent. She cared nothing for the civil war affecting the K'Chain Che'Malle. These Short-Tails were fleeing their kin, seeking a refue. I doubt she bothered asking questions."

[Dance]

HoosierDaddy;354604 said:

The inhabitants of Wu were also actively seeking to repel K'Chain invasions. In TBH Icarium and Mappo discover a Moon's Spawn that was incased in Omtose Phelleck.

Now that you mention it, I recall a scene in HoC where L'oric is back in time and the Deragoth kill a KCCM hunter (or two). L'orics comment/thought is something like, "I see now why the KCCM never established colonies on this continent."

It still seems as if the KCCM mainly destroyed themselves, however, as opposed to being defeated by the Jaghut.

[HoosierDaddy]

Dance;354621 said:

Now that you mention it, I recall a scene in HoC where L'oric is back in time and the Deragoth kill a KCCM hunter (or two). L'orics comment/thought is something like, "I see now why the KCCM never established colonies on this continent."

It still seems as if the KCCM mainly destroyed themselves, however, as opposed to being defeated by the Jaghut.

Agreed, but being attacked where ever you show up isn't a good way to start beachheads into Wu.

[Optimus Prime]

It also moved Kallor to tears, whatever he realized about that fight against death.

The whole "Bless you, Bless you all" line was mind boggling coming from Kallor.

So the Jaghut fought the FA, the Jaghut were enslaved by the KCCM...and they also fought against Death itself....quite a rap sheet.

[Abyss]

As i understood the undead dragon's chat with kallor (still not sure that was Tulas, btw), the Jaghut war on death took place BEFORE the KC conquest. By the time the KC showed up, the Jaghut were the isolationists we are familiar with, likely because of the effects the war on death had on them.


Now, to a certaine xtent this contradicts Brood's hint to Endest that somewhere far away the Jaghut and Forkrul Assail are still warring on each other.

But i suppose we can reason out that some remainder of the Jaghut post (failed?) War of Death found themselves in conflict with the FA.

Still, a lot we don't know there.

- Abyss, in awe of the scope of what SE suggests on this.

[Optimus Prime]

I'm more in awe of the potential for a Encyclopedia at this point....it would be 10,000,000,000 pages and still not be enough to fill this history.

I can't even fathom the type of mind that would lead the FA.

[Dance]

A theory...

Suppose the war on death was the creation of souls.

The KCCM bind everything to time, creating death. The Jaghut are naturally upset at this, so move on and try to seek something more permanent. They create a world/universe (whichever) spanning ritual, so that whenever someone dies a spiritual copy is created - a soul (alternatively, whenever something is born, a soul is also created, or every living being creates a soul naturally as it grows). This works fine initially, until the "dead" souls are building up (like in Lether), and until the Jaghut realize the souls can be enslaved and used for other purposes. To combat this one takes on the role of Hood, and collects the souls in his realm in order to protect them and save them for a time when they are needed.

[ShadowOwl]

Abyss;354641 said:

As i understood the undead dragon's chat with kallor (still not sure that was Tulas, btw), the Jaghut war on death took place BEFORE the KC conquest. By the time the KC showed up, the Jaghut were the isolationists we are familiar with, likely because of the effects the war on death had on them.


Now, to a certaine xtent this contradicts Brood's hint to Endest that somewhere far away the Jaghut and Forkrul Assail are still warring on each other.

But i suppose we can reason out that some remainder of the Jaghut post (failed?) War of Death found themselves in conflict with the FA.

Still, a lot we don't know there.

- Abyss, in awe of the scope of what SE suggests on this.

Abyss, I am so looking forward to your comments once you have read RotCG.

[Abyss]

ShadowOwl;354702 said:

Abyss, I am so looking forward to your comments once you have read RotCG.

yeah, me too!

- Abyss, has never before wished a summer to move along just a tiny bit faster....

[buddhacat]

Abyss;354641 said:

But i suppose we can reason out that some remainder of the Jaghut post (failed?) War of Death found themselves in conflict with the FA.

In that conversation, the Dragon says that the Jaghut won.

[HoosierDaddy]

buddhacat;354723 said:

In that conversation, the Dragon says that the Jaghut won.

It also says that it was an unwinnable war. Erikson likes to confuse us, although I do believe they won and he originally called it unwinnable to enhance the Jaghut victory.

[Tarr]

TTH pg 575

"We fought. We refused to to retreat. We failed. So many of us fell - should we have beleived otherwise? Should we have held faith to the righteousness of our cause, even as we came to beleive we were doomed?"

"weep for me and my fallen kin - who did not hesitate to join a war that could not be won."

So they didn't win but failed in their war.

Also the dragon may not be tulas shorn as upon meeting kallor it tells him it remembers its death, but when the dragon talks to ST and Cot it says it doesn't remember.

[Cause]

Despite tulas talking about a million warriors, and kallor imagining a field of war littered with the dead. I still walked away from that conversation thinking the war must have been metaphorical

Aptorian;354536 said:

It doesn't really hold up at all but that's mostly because we don't know enough.

If there at one point was a million Jaghut warriors then there's no way you're going to convince me that they were subjugated by the KCCM. Nothing could control such a civilizationt. It sounds more probable that the KCCM conquered the Jaghut after they lost the fight against death.

I would not be too sure of that. Jhaghut are undoubtly some of the most powerfull characters we have seen. But than we have seen a jhaghut mother fall to the spears of a few mortal imass. Power scales slide alot in SEs world. It is nice to imagine a million skilled warriors throwing out avalanches left right and centre though. Also lets not forget tha the kemalle are perhaps even stronger. Skykeeps, technology magic hybrids. Incredible levels of magic concentrated in the matrons.

[Raraku]

Abyss;354641 said:

As i understood the undead dragon's chat with kallor (still not sure that was Tulas, btw), the Jaghut war on death took place BEFORE the KC conquest. By the time the KC showed up, the Jaghut were the isolationists we are familiar with, likely because of the effects the war on death had on them.


Now, to a certaine xtent this contradicts Brood's hint to Endest that somewhere far away the Jaghut and Forkrul Assail are still warring on each other.

But i suppose we can reason out that some remainder of the Jaghut post (failed?) War of Death found themselves in conflict with the FA.

Still, a lot we don't know there.

- Abyss, in awe of the scope of what SE suggests on this.

Under Letheras, the ruins of the KCCM civilization are below the ruins of the Jaghut. I think Kuru Qan mentions this in MT and somewhere in RG it is also mentioned. So the KCCM civilization predated the Jaghut civilization on the Lether continent at least. I can't find quotes for if this is true on any other continent. Any one else know ?