[Cause]

Imperial Historian;350588 said:

Regarding the kelyk thread, he mentioned that this was written so he could explore western civilisations addiction to oil, and that he changed the writing style and added these new threads to challenge himself stylistically and keep up his interest.

so yes, there was less action in this book then some, but I think it improved the book, and to those of you who want a more action packed style, I think ICE will be right up your street judging from RotCG, Se seems to have left lots fo threads for ICE to take up in TTH, so maybe you'll like ICE's darujhistan book more...

I think that annoys me some. For a start the kelyk oil connection is non existant as far as Im concerned. Oil does not make me live my life in bliss. Aslo the eight book of your ten book series is not the time to put in a few hundred pages of story to explore western civilisation. It either fits the series theme or it does not

[Ursus]

Cause;350608 said:

Oil does not make me live my life in bliss

Debatable.
But i can agree the Kelyk thread wasn't 100%.

[tiam]

Cause;350608 said:

I think that annoys me some. For a start the kelyk oil connection is non existant as far as Im concerned. Oil does not make me live my life in bliss. Aslo the eight book of your ten book series is not the time to put in a few hundred pages of story to explore western civilisation. It either fits the series theme or it does not

Seconded. 2 books from completing the series is not time to put in another one of hs philosophical lessons in. The book had many philosophical points and issues made and while some of them were repeated throughout the series, capitalism is bad etc which i do like and think it sets SE right in the middle of the completelycynical writers and he sunshine and lollipops. Dont get me wrong im not saying i understand alot of what hes saying but to simply create a non sensical story line for his whimsical interests just so he reader knows how he feels about it wrong. I mean simply using bellurdan to express these was simply odd and wrong. This isnt a rant i enjoyed the book but i dont know it just seemd out of the loop.

Also i still dont know what banal means

Edit Ursus- How does oil make anyones life blissful? I dont mean that in a completely ignorant way but i think what cause says is not debatable

[Illuyankas]

I don't know about you, but my life would certainly be almost intolerable without oil.

And google is your friend.

[tiam]

Illuyankas;351132 said:

I don't know about you, but my life would certainly be almost intolerable without oil.

And google is your friend.

I agree life would be incredibly difficult without oil but to say simply because we have oil life is 'blissful' is a bit of a stretch. I admit if we never had in comparison it would be blissful but im not going down the hole global warming-were running out of oil- end of the world scenario as theres already a discussion on that.

Also rep for banal

[Cougar]

I think there are assumptions being made by people here that are somewhat debatable:

1. In a context setting there seems to be an assumption that at this stage every story line should lead towards a greater conclusion, every storyline should add something to our understanding of the world, which in turn presupposes this series will be tied of in a nice bundle at the end. Leaving aside the fact that Cams work and novellas plus the Rake series are going to have to follow, I am absolutley sure Steve has no intention and no inclination to tie off every lose end (he has said as much). Moreover, there was nothing wrong with the Kelyk story line, it was a device to drive on Nimanders group and to force a change in the Redeemer etc. If Steve wants to make this point somewhat philosophical then so what? I enjoyed it.

2. In terms of style I enjoyed that fact that he utilised Kruppe as narrator. I find it admirable that he hasn't just picked a style and stuck with it, it keeps the series fresher.

3. I think his writing style has come on a lot in the last few years. I enjoyed that fact that he was able to take more time and make descriptions more interesting; and there were times when I felt he was really stretching himself to bring a richness and texture to the story. I've always found the relationships in his work believable, but I liked that parts where he dwelled on interactions, friendships etc and I thought his chacterisation was enhanced by the insight he brings to people's thought processes (in particular the unpleasant child Snell) and I loved the genre defying focus on the thoughts of the Ox.

4. He can put whatever he wants in as far as I am concerned, I don't like this 'now isn't the time to start...'. SE knows the story arc and he can do whatever the fudge he wants. I think he has earned a bit of patience by delivering time and again in the past.

[phart]

tiam;350560 said:

The inconsistencies are few and far beetween and the time line errors do not bother as much as they seem to bother some ppl

i think there are, relatively, loads. i never mentioned timeline, the time line doesn't bother me he mucked up or didn't try hard enough, it's not a huge deal if one ignores it.

However from my point of thinking, i think SE has these huge events in his head ( he has said as much in interviews, with MS coming out of the water in MOI, being the one mentioned in the interview) he then connects these moments (to my mind) with his writing which is extremely enjoyable to read, but does have some inconsistencies, the timeline being one, GOT in its entirety being another. I'm not having a go merely elucidating what i mean.

Occasionally like with Paran not being able to contact Rake he creates false suspense, especially with Dracanus stating "if Rake still holds it" (with reference to Draginspur. then Rake appears no problem sword still to hand, but obviously we wondered for a lot of the book if he still had it. For me at least there was no other reason for this statement from Draconus other than to create the false suspense, of course i may have missed something, that is entirely possible.

These are just personal things and i wouldn't expect anyone else to feel the same, in fact it may be fault with me (in relation to pedantry) rather than a fault in the Author.

Anyway i'm feeling bad now for slating him a bit, as he is certainly one of the premium authors in the genre right now (and probably for many years to come), I just prefer GRRM on the basis of lack of consistency problems in comparison, not that i would say i prefer ASOIAF over MBOTF, I enjoy both equally but feel Martin has the edge over SE on the basis explained above.

[buddhacat]

Cougar;351624 said:

4. He can put whatever he wants in as far as I am concerned, I don't like this 'now isn't the time to start...'. SE knows the story arc and he can do whatever the fudge he wants. I think he has earned a bit of patience by delivering time and again in the past.

Agreed completely with this.

I find the whining about "why all these new characters and new story arcs" and so on entirely stupid. It seems like some people prefer the hack-n-slash speed of a Glen Cook. Or they just want the major characters to do their thing and be done with it - 300 pages ought to do that.

That SE is bringing even more depth and breadth and texture to the Malazan world is in fact the strength of these books. Not for these whiners, though.

Pfft.

[tiam]

Cougar;351624 said:

I think there are assumptions being made by people here that are somewhat debatable:

1. In a context setting there seems to be an assumption that at this stage every story line should lead towards a greater conclusion, every storyline should add something to our understanding of the world, which in turn presupposes this series will be tied of in a nice bundle at the end. Leaving aside the fact that Cams work and novellas plus the Rake series are going to have to follow, I am absolutley sure Steve has no intention and no inclination to tie off every lose end (he has said as much). Moreover, there was nothing wrong with the Kelyk story line, it was a device to drive on Nimanders group and to force a change in the Redeemer etc. If Steve wants to make this point somewhat philosophical then so what? I enjoyed it.

2. In terms of style I enjoyed that fact that he utilised Kruppe as narrator. I find it admirable that he hasn't just picked a style and stuck with it, it keeps the series fresher.

3. I think his writing style has come on a lot in the last few years. I enjoyed that fact that he was able to take more time and make descriptions more interesting; and there were times when I felt he was really stretching himself to bring a richness and texture to the story. I've always found the relationships in his work believable, but I liked that parts where he dwelled on interactions, friendships etc and I thought his chacterisation was enhanced by the insight he brings to people's thought processes (in particular the unpleasant child Snell) and I loved the genre defying focus on the thoughts of the Ox.

4. He can put whatever he wants in as far as I am concerned, I don't like this 'now isn't the time to start...'. SE knows the story arc and he can do whatever the fudge he wants. I think he has earned a bit of patience by delivering time and again in the past.

You are right of course. However its simply critiscism on a book weve all waited so long for that it was anti climatic.I realise thats my fault rather than the book. Now again i didnt mind the style of writing. SE writing has always been densse but this took it to another level. Many saw tht as evolution of writing. However the actual style in the earlier books never bothered me in its ,say, comparative simplicity. It seems in recent years SE makes a albeit brilliant philosophical arguement in the first 500 pages and saves it with a fan happy ending.

The plot device of say the Ox i thought was brilliant epecially the way it became an almost integral part of the story near the end. The reason why the elyk and the book bothered me was that the kelyk rain and other things like Bellurdan taking over clip and Bellurdan in general reallyseemed different. The fact that a tiste Andii or anyone was taken over by half a dead TTT seemed off as did the apparent ease in which everyone got into dragnipur. It seemed while i was reading it that to make blockbuster ending SE ignored or glanced over certain solid facts weve seen previously. For example how did a Trygalle carriage, as far as im concerned a far more problematic dues ex machina than the eres, get into Dragnipr?

[Cougar]

Well I'm all for criticising SE when I think it's correct, I wouldn't want to become some sort of apologist for my favorite authors like those tards on the Goodkind forums, or even...heaven forbid ROWLING!!

I think the point about Bellurdan was he was able to take over Clip since as Failurdan he was a powerful negative force who had been to the abyss, I personally believed that he took advantage of Clips negative energy/emotions (but that is never stated), rather than just a TTT soul possessing him which I agree seems far fetched. In terms of the ease with which everyone got into Dragnipur, it's possible people had been in before (except Paran), but far more likely that people just didn't want to cos it was full of baddies, half dead corpses, a stinking carriage and chaos itself.

[tiam]

Paran was set up as the first person to walk in Dragnipur. The problem i have is SE dragging up on of the few characters hes killed off as an accessory for torment and to bring his own beliefs on oil. i think that creating a crippled god to base the entire series on then 2 books from finish creating another 'dying god' on the thinnest of circumstances.

Also we all make excuses for Erikson. If something doesnt make sense,say chronologically, we all create a 'theory' round it

[Illuyankas]

They set up the trip into Dragnipur with Cartographer being able to home in on Hood, from the Trygalle's trip into Hood's Realm.

[tiam]

Even thats a stretch. It was supposed to be impregnable from both inside and out. Then Apsalara escapes and all sorts come in. A better example is them all coming in then leaaving with very little difficulty like Toc

[Abyss]

This was, without a doubt, the most cerebral of the MBFs so far. SE, via various voices, quite literally thinks about weighty issues. I had an initial 'oh no' reaction, but then i started reading them closely. The thing is, TtH really does not read as well in the omg omg barrel thru get to tend post on the forum how cool was that way that most of the previous books do. You can, quite easily, skim thru the various pontifications and not lose any of the impact of the last 200 pages or so, because that is quite possibly some of the best fantasy action dram ever written, BUT, i suggest that on the reread, sloooooow down. There's a reason it took me longer than usual to get back to the forum and that's because this book required a slower pace from me. I tried to put the context of what the author was saying into what the characteres were doing. It's not easy - i'm looking fwd to the reread to try a little harder, but the point is this:

If you've come this far, through seven previous doorstopper novels, because you think this author is great and awesome and worth your time, than maybe the author has something interesting to say beyond stick sword a into body part b and describe splatter fx... not in the condescending and pretentious way certain other authors who shall remain nameless (hint: one makes me bleed from my eyes) do, but in a genuine hey, here's what i think and maybe while you're reading, chew on it a little sort of way.

I could be wrong, but at least for moi, TtH works on many levels because oif the differences from previous books, not in spite of them.


- Abyss, ummmm, not that there's anything wrong with a lot of sword-into-body-part-equals-bloodsplatter tho...

[blackzoid]

Perhaps its a case that when something like sword-into-body-part-equals-bloodsplatter happens, its contrasted much more heavily when the action is taken in context with all the "waffle" that came before.

The Theme of this novel was death,
We had the Dying god, Gaz, character deaths, Jaghut war against death, corpse armies, everything.
We had much thought from the characters on what death was and what it means.

Then we get to that great line "Son of Darkness, I have reconsidered" and then BAM, the Lord of Death himself is "dead". I had to put the book down at the moment, because I thought that the entire novel would lead up to Rake's death. Thats what all the "waffle" was hinting at to me.
After Hood was taken out, I was thinking "WTF? What the hell happens when Death itself is "dead" "
Would the shock of that moment as been as great if there had not been so much thematical thought on the subject of death beforehand? I don't think so.

[Pig Iron]

Wrote this on another thread (OK not Abyss-quality even by a far stretch):

Think stylistically it was a bit like Thomas Pynchon meets Dickens (whole Harllo thread was very Oliver Twist). Thing is, Erikson evidently isn't interested in pleasing his audience, he's seems to have more of an artistic temper and writes as he feels like he has to. Makes it hard going sometimes and I don't like all of it, but it's also what will ensure these novels will live for a long time. It will be an interesting reread. I had some of the same objections to RG, but those very parts were awesome when read with the whole "I-can't-wait-to-see-what-happens" thing over.

[Theyis]

The endless philosopizing of the book never bothered me and never did in any of the books. Try reading some actual philosophy and this is light reading in comparison.
In fact the discussion between Mappo and Spite in tBH on the nature of a war between the gods is probably one of my favorite scenes in the whole series.

TtH didn't let down because of the philosophy (I actually thought the whole Time as a God thing was fairly interesting), but because I felt the storylines were far less interconnected than in any other book. It is pretty much possible to seperate the Rake/Hood/Dassem/Dragnipur storyline and the storyline of the Bridgeburners and the storyline of Murillio/Cutter/Harllo into seperate books and nobody would even notice. The connections were too flimsy imo to really feel like that convergence had to happen in that spot with all those characters involved...

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I don't think the quality of SE's writing has dipped, but imho he is moving in a direction I enjoy less. There were parts of TtH where i felt i was slogging through some randomness to get to the next good part. Of course, part of this was my excitement to find out everything that was going to happen. On my reread I'll be much more patient with the philosophy.

Hot damn though, the last 150-200 pages were all the action anyone could ask for.

[Terez]

Raymond Luxury Yacht;356740 said:

I don't think the quality of SE's writing has dipped, but imho he is moving in a direction I enjoy less. There were parts of TtH where i felt i was slogging through some randomness to get to the next good part. Of course, part of this was my excitement to find out everything that was going to happen. On my reread I'll be much more patient with the philosophy.

Hot damn though, the last 150-200 pages were all the action anyone could ask for.

Well, now that you've had your action wank, and you can read it again more slowly, I think you'll enjoy the "randomness" a lot more if you attend to it with the, er...required cogitation. If you just zip through it because you can't wait to get to the scheduled convergence, then you're missing a lot of good stuff.

I need to go back through it because I had a great deal of impatience with the Tiste Andii plotline this time through, especially Endest, and Nimander to a lesser extent (I developed more patience with them toward the end of the book, and now I think I'll actually enjoy their points of view in the beginning). I also had a great deal of impatience/disinterest for the new characters. I took a good week to read the book, but I think an lot of the first 400 pages or so went through one eye and out the other...

[Skywalker]

Terez;356745 said:

Well, now that you've had your action wank, and you can read it again more slowly, I think you'll enjoy the "randomness" a lot more if you attend to it with the, er...required cogitation. If you just zip through it because you can't wait to get to the scheduled convergence, then you're missing a lot of good stuff...

Hmm... I had that experience with both The Bonehunters and with Reaper's Gale. I think I will do a MT to TtH reread (I've read and cogitated on the first four enough by now methinks)