[Blues]

Illuyankas;349764 said:

Go read the Prologue and First Chapter of Return of the Crimson Guard, in the ROTCG forum. You might find them of interest.

I was afraid it was something like this.

[Illuyankas]

You know you want to.

[Grief]

L said:

Top five sword fighters without mortal/ascendant complications with whatever equipment they have.

1.Dassem I really think there is no one that can compare. Rake manuevered an early end to his conflict with Dassem but there was nothing to suggest that Rake was better than Dassem. We do not know if Dassem was trying to get killed in some way either because I have no idea how Dassem would have gotten to Hood without being in the sword himself. Maybe it was all a test to see who could get themselves killed first? If that was the case then Rake was the better swordsman.


2. Mok/Seguleh 1st or 2nd: I am willing to stand on these three being equal or near enough not to make a difference.

3. Karsa: Speed and size combination and the sword together is just more than most will ever be able to handle.

4. Kallor: Can't say I like the guy, but he is a great character for the book. The true definition of an outside the lines bad guy in the series.

5. Tool: What can I say? Favorite all time character. There is a little bit of Raest in him. A little bit of the Malazan soldier. A ton of integrity and enough hubris to only get him in trouble sometimes.

The fact that Rake managed to manuevere Dassem(acceptably one of the best swordsmen ever) to kill him, but not only kill him, but in a certain way suggests to me he is better. An early end had nothing to do with it, he had to be killed by dragnipur, the fact he could make dassem do it suggests he's better.

Top 5 of all time:

1.Rake. He manuevered dassem into killing him how he wanted it, while severely weakened by the weight of Hood.

2.Dassem Ultor. Awesome swordsfighter, not as good as rake, but if he'd had the same amount of time Rakes had to practise, who knows.

3. Whiskeyjack. Seems to have been rather underrated. If you read over the books you'll find mention of him holding back Dassem Ultor in sparring, and about how close it was between them(CAnt remember book, think its in convo between brdiegburners)

4. Seguleh first. Must be damn good from what we've seen of Mok. After all, Mok beat the best T'lan Imass fighter.

5. Karsa. Impressive, but not technically great, he relies lots on brute force, and is obviously outclassed by both Dassem and Rake.

For my top five still alive(presuming Rakes dead, im unsatisfied, as there was no clear answer as to his fate, only that he "passed into Kurald Galain" and we later possibly hear his mother talking to him. Who knows. Id like to find out. Presuming Rake isn't coming back, add in Silchas Ruin last. Oh yeah, and does anyone know why Rake appears to be stronger that Ruin? Or is it just more skillful, cause many times its said he "isn't his brother" and other comments leading us to believe his brother was the better, yet I remember reading at some point that Ruin had drunk more of Tiams blood.

Edit: On the "whose the best assasin" front heres a few things.

ST says at one point that even Cotillion would hesitate before taking on Kalam(think its towards the end of Gardens on the moon)
After Apsalars shadowdance he also says something along the lines of "Not even Dancer". Admittedly this could be simply because Dancer never had cause to take down that many claw.

[Crimson Guardian]

Icarium hasn't ascended according to Pust. Whether the list includes ascended or not Icarium is the most deadly swordsman. The gods fear him and his rage. You can't say 'he's not that skillful, only his rage makes him dangerous' because rage is a significant factor. Are you telling me that a fight isn't fair because the other guy was enraged. He's walked the world for millenia and I suspect was the one who brought about the destruction of the empire of Dessimbalackis. Remember all the ruined cities in Rarauku that he had no memory of, it's because he slew entire populations and Mappo indicated it was 10,000 years ago or during the time of Dessembalackis.

Soletaken shrank in fear when they discovered who he was. People worship him as the destroyer yet he hasn't ascended. Dassem was struck when Samar Dev mentioned his name in TotH. Amomander was solemn when he discovered that Icarium had built a time mechanism in Darujhistan in GotM. Ascendants and mages alike worry he will destroy the world if his rage ignites fully.

No other being in the series has been given that kind of capability singlehandedly. The only idiot who has willingly faced him and I believe it was out of ignornace was Karsa. Icarium cut his Bloodwood sword in half. Mappo knocked Karsa unconscious not out of fear for Icarium losing but for fear Karsa would ignite his rage. Trull stood up to him through no choice of his own and would have died then if not for Quick Ben. Quick Ben is arguably the most powerful and dangerous mage alive and he could only slow Icarium down and has possibly damaged himself doing that. Quick Ben, the one who blew Soletaken Eleint out of the sky.

Icarium is only half Jaghut, his father was Gothos and I suspect his mother may be the elder god Kilamandaros. Reasons for this are when Icarium and Karsa finally meet in Lether Karsa doesn't engage in a fight because he saw the unmistakable features of the Toblakai in Icarium's face. Gothos was with Kilamandaros during and after the Scabandari betrayal. I think I remember somehwere Kilamandaros being the goddess of the Toblakai or something similar. I simply suspect this might be the case.

As far as number two on the non-ascendant list everyone seems to be forgetting the Forkrul Assail named Calm. She ran through Karsa and his two companions like they were toddlers barehanded. She could have strangled Karsa right then. We only received a glimpse of her and she was frightening. Nothing suggested she was an ascendant just one of the mystery race of the Forkrul Assail. Karsa shouldn't be forgetting about her because she did foretell they would meet again.

Dead guys don't count so that leaves out Trull, Brys Bedict, Whiskeyjack and the Seguleh 2nd. I'm not going for swordsman, I'm going for most lethal so Quick Ben is three, could even possibly be second, Seguleh 1st is fourth (based on the prowess of the Seg 2nd and 3rd how can the 1st not be in the top five) Apsalar and Kalam tied for fifth. There could be an arguement to include Skinner, Iron Bars, Blues and Kallor since they could be comparable to Icarium as far as ascendancy but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Karsa and Dassem aren't included because they are ascendants along with the other heavy hitters like Silchas Ruin, Osserc, Caladan Brood etc.

Icarium is the baddest of them all. He alone can destroy the entire world.

[Aptorian]

Crimson Guardian;350123 said:

As far as number two on the non-ascendant list everyone seems to be forgetting the Forkrul Assail named Calm. She ran through Karsa and his two companions like they were toddlers barehanded. She could have strangled Karsa right then. We only received a glimpse of her and she was frightening. Nothing suggested she was an ascendant just one of the mystery race of the Forkrul Assail. Karsa shouldn't be forgetting about her because she did foretell they would meet again.

When she attacked Karsa and his warparty they were caught by surprise. They were in awe of what they fought was a mighty demon. It wasn't a fight Calm just striked them down.

Forkrul Assail are notoriously dangerous and probably the hardest creature to kill. Remember Kallors memory of a fight involving Thelomen, Trell, FAs, etc? Around each dead FA was lying a hundred dead.

We don't know if Calm was special or she was just an average FA. She's certainly lethal but I'm sure she would find a battle with Karsa far tougher than she would expect and I wouldn't be surprised if Karsa could kill her.

Crimson Guardian;350123 said:

Dead guys don't count so that leaves out Trull, Brys Bedict, Whiskeyjack and the Seguleh 2nd.

Why don't the dead count? The Seguleh Second is certainly going to convince Skinner that the dead are to be feared...

Crimson Guardian;350123 said:

I'm not going for swordsman, I'm going for most lethal so Quick Ben is three, could even possibly be second, Seguleh 1st is fourth (based on the prowess of the Seg 2nd and 3rd how can the 1st not be in the top five) Apsalar and Kalam tied for fifth. There could be an arguement to include Skinner, Iron Bars, Blues and Kallor since they could be comparable to Icarium as far as ascendancy but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Karsa and Dassem aren't included because they are ascendants along with the other heavy hitters like Silchas Ruin, Osserc, Caladan Brood etc.

If you're not going for lethal and you're including mages then you might aswell not even mention any swordfighter or assassin. People like Cowl, Tay, Quick, Beak, Obo, Agayala, etc. would be on top. Even with ottataral weapons warriors don't have a chance against a mage that's prepared. The mage might not be able to damage the ottataral wielding opponent but everything else in their surrounding are theirs to manipulate. The opponent would never get in range.

Crimson Guardian;350123 said:

Icarium is the baddest of them all. He alone can destroy the entire world.

I don't think the gods would allow it to come to that. He can be stopped like we saw the Eres'al do. It's just dangerous trying to get that close.

Besides, unless he was fighting the CG or something nothing could possibly cause Icariums rage to come to that.

[Crimson Guardian]

Icarium is the most lethal. The gods would have killed him already if they could have for the threat he poses to the world. As for who is second, third, etc. wouldn't matter.

You have to be kidding about Calm. Karsa's excuse is being taken by surprise? She ransacked three Teblor Toblakai without any weapons. That FA is the last thing Orlong wants to see again ascendant or not.

[Aptorian]

Uhm, Icarium can indeed be killed. Nothing is "untouchable" in Eriksons world. Do you really think if someone put a crossbow bolt through his head or threw a cusser at him he wouldn't be on the other side of Hoods gate? It's only when he's already in full rage mode he becomes something close to unstoppable.

Otherwise how did you think Mappo could just clubber him over the head each time things go south.

As for Karsa. You really don't think Karsa has improved since he left the Laederon Mountains? It's been ten years. Karsa is a lot more dangerous than he was when he left.

[Crimson Guardian]

I think Kruppe could handle Karsa with a pastry in each hand. As for Icarium, yes you're right, he can be killed but no one even wants to attempt it because of the consequences of failure.

Now that I have time to reflect, Kruppe may be the strongest one there is and he's not even green.

[8th City]

Quote

=Top 5 of all time:

1.Rake. He manuevered dassem into killing him how he wanted it, while severely weakened by the weight of Hood.

2.Dassem Ultor. Awesome swordsfighter, not as good as rake, but if he'd had the same amount of time Rakes had to practise, who knows.

3. Whiskeyjack. Seems to have been rather underrated. If you read over the books you'll find mention of him holding back Dassem Ultor in sparring, and about how close it was between them(CAnt remember book, think its in convo between brdiegburners)

4. Seguleh first. Must be damn good from what we've seen of Mok. After all, Mok beat the best T'lan Imass fighter.

5. Karsa. Impressive, but not technically great, he relies lots on brute force, and is obviously outclassed by both Dassem and Rake.

For my top five still alive(presuming Rakes dead, im unsatisfied, as there was no clear answer as to his fate, only that he "passed into Kurald Galain" and we later possibly hear his mother talking to him. Who knows. Id like to find out. Presuming Rake isn't coming back, add in Silchas Ruin last. Oh yeah, and does anyone know why Rake appears to be stronger that Ruin? Or is it just more skillful, cause many times its said he "isn't his brother" and other comments leading us to believe his brother was the better, yet I remember reading at some point that Ruin had drunk more of Tiams blood.

Pure swordsmanship:

1. Rake (sure why not, who has ever beaten him, at anything?, dont count Dasseem, that was SE's way to giving us a fight between the two w/o actually having a real outcome.)

2. Dasseem (sure, who has ever beaten him? ever?)

3. Whiskyjack? not even in top 10, Brood gives us a good list to start with when he talks about Rake, Ultor, Greymane, Segulah 1st. WJ was a good commander, but an epic swordsman?

4. Segulah 1st? I can go along with this, even though we have not seen him/her fight, reputation of the segulah alone should warrant this slot.

5. Karsa? hmmmmm, tough one, of the people that we have seen in fights I think Karsa would lose to Mok (therein the 2nd and 1st also), Bryss, Rake, Ultor, and we have already seen Karsa get bigboied by Crust and Calm, so I would not put him in top 5.

So, if we are talking the top 5 greatest in a duel w/o magic including ascendants and gods, based on what we have seen and what we have heard in the novels, AND is not definately dead, then my list would look like this.

1. Rake (hate to admit it, he is one of my least favorite characters.)

2. Dasseem Ultor

3. Bryss

4. Segulah 1st

5. Cotillion (one of my favorite)

Rest of the best

6. Osseric
7. Silchias Ruin (one of my favorite, what Rake should be)
8. Segulah 2nd and/or Mok (another one of my favorite)
9. Skinner
10. Kalam
11. Karsa
12. Tool
13. Apsalar
14. Kallor
14. Icarium (2nd least favorite)

I would love to put Brood in there somewhere, but we I have not heard enough or seen enough of his physical prowess, besides the whole creating the mountain range thing when he tried to shut Kruppe up.


However, in a no holds barred, anything goes, where you when if you kill your opponent no matter what happens to you, there here would be the list of non dead top 5, including sorcery, weapon of choice, so forth so forth.

1. Brood (umm, wake up Burn anyone?)
2. Fiddler with a Cusser
3. Icarium in full Incredible Hulk mode
4. Quick Ben going Kamayama by a full unveiling.
5. Rake, by going all Draconic


honorable mentions:

anyone else with a cusser.

[Veilside]

jitsukerr;346677 said:

Shadow dancing doesn't always invoke Rashan. Lostara's quote is something to the effect, 'There are elements in the Shadow Dance that, if performed correctly, invoke Rashan.' I took it to mean that only particular sequences of the Dance invoke Rashan. Other than that, every time she did her exercises she'd be calling Shadow.

Except the shadow dance in Bidithal's temple of Rashan wasn't done for assassination purposes, as Cot explains in DHG I believe. So one can presume that Lostara doesn't understand the whole thing, unlike Apsalar.

[blackzoid]

Sorry to derail the thread but going back to the very first post.

Is Dassem an ascendent?
2 points support it:

1: In NOk he crushs someones windpipe with his hand. Now maybe you can do that in real life, could be hard though.

2: in TTH, he beats up and hurts a bear! Come on! Before he cut the head off, he survived being bitten by the bear and also snapped its rips. Dassem is described as a swordsman of "average height". Swordsmen are not bodybuilders. How can anybody snap the ribs off a bear (I don't care if it was starving)

He's an Ascendent.

[Illuyankas]

...crap, did anyone remember to ask Steve to confirm whether Dassem was an Ascendant or a mortal at the BBQ? I KNOW he said he was mortal at the signings, but I forgot if we asked again on Saturday.

[Grief]

Just to inform people of something. We are told Karsa is resistant to magic. He deduces this is because the blood oil he has rubbed into his skin from a young age is made from otataral. Otataral doesn't work on elder warrens, therefore Karsa wouldn't be resistant to a blast of Starvald demelain, Kurald Galain, Omtose Phellack, etc.

[Illuyankas]

Except he walks through a Tellann ritual to free Aramala, and ignores Binadas's Emurlahn, both in HOC. Remember that the Grey Helm's Destriant says certain Toblakai possess their own personal (almost certainly Elder) warren, and he detected traces of one on the Silanda. He's immune to all magic due to his own warren simply pushing any others aside.

[8th City]

blackzoid;351101 said:

Sorry to derail the thread but going back to the very first post.

Is Dassem an ascendent?
2 points support it:

1: In NOk he crushs someones windpipe with his hand. Now maybe you can do that in real life, could be hard though.

2: in TTH, he beats up and hurts a bear! Come on! Before he cut the head off, he survived being bitten by the bear and also snapped its rips. Dassem is described as a swordsman of "average height". Swordsmen are not bodybuilders. How can anybody snap the ribs off a bear (I don't care if it was starving)

He's an Ascendent.

In I think Bonehunters, Leoman of the Falls explains a little about Daseem, naming him an ascendant, not sure how he knows this information, but then again, how does anyone in this world know information. It seems like everyone knows everything about everyone.

[Silencer]

Funnily enough, I actually thought that most people in Erikson's world didn't know everything about everyone. Unlike, say, Lord of the Rings, where there's nothing really that one character or another doesn't know.
If you consider that this is a time of convergence, where there are gods and ascendants all over the place, it's no wonder we get as much info as we do....but most of it still comes from what we've seen or heard in the characters' own memories, with only small tidbits coming from others. For example - that Leoman thing, it was pretty much a one-off - almost everything else that we know about Dassem comes from people with him/who have had a good reason to know a lot about him (i.e. Temper). It's one of the good things about Erikson's world - we don't get told everything, and there isn't really an "all knowing" character.


Total off-topic there. Sorry.

[Aptorian]

Erikson told Brood something like "he thinks of Dassem as mortal" as though Erikson os undecided or likes to leave his options open.

[blackzoid]

Mortal as in
1: can be killed
2: can be killed and does not have bear rip-breaking strength?

[Aptorian]

Mortal as in "not ascended".

Anyone can die. Just ask Rake

[blackzoid]

Ok. So Dassem is in a situation like Urko Crust then?
A normal human being with super strength.