[Aptorian]

You know, there's a difference between slicing up a defenseless opponent lying on the ground and attempting something similar on a skilled opponent attacking you.

Dassem or Rake could probably do the same, it's just not very often they have a need for such feats.

Pretty impressive that he did it with out severing any major arteries though.

[scabandari]

Yeah okay there probably weren't weak members of the Azath but they mayhave picked on them one at a time as they were a group
The reality is that Karsas major advantage is his size which he used against the seguleh to shake the ground and throw her off balance and then grab her
He is still skilled as he blocked all of Rhulads attacks when he wanted to he probably couldn't cut his tendons and that he'd just chop someone up but i'd back him in a fight against Brys

[Cutt3r]

I registered just so I could say this (I've been viewing the site for a couple years).

WHERE IS KALAM? Seriously. I defintely think he deserves to be in the top 5, at least top 10 nonascended characters. Most of the characters people keep naming are ascended anyway or a recieving help from gods.

I'm pretty sure somewhere it is stated that Karsa is ascended or on the brink of it. Besides, a man's whose will power is an actual warren cannot be normal. Brys cannot be eligible because he is the Saviour of the Empty Hold.

IMO the top 5 fighters would be...

1. Serenity- was just awoke and fought against trull, rhulad, and two of those demon princes. Was weak!!! I was shocked not to see him in the thread!
2. The 1st- we've yet to see him/her, but if the 1st is far better than Mok than he is a devestating fighter.
3. Trull- his feat w/ standing against Icarium came before he became Knight of Ahadow. I'm not sure if he's elligible bcuz he is dead, but I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing him again.
4. Skinner- is Avowed, which is almost like cheating because it gives ascendant-like powers, but he is skilled there's no doubt.
5. Kalam- the ability to slow time while fighting has only been seen by him. I think skillwise he is a match for aspalar. Even dancer is impressed by the man.

[Aptorian]

Kalam isn't able to slow down time. It just feels like it because his perception of the battle is so crystal clear and he himself is much faster than the average human being.
The same effects have been described when seeing Dassem, Karsa, Rake, etc fighting.

[scabandari]

Kalam would be in there if you wanted a knife stabbed in someones back but in a toe to toe fight against many of the other charachters i think he'd lose and yeah Karsa is on the verge of ascendence but i don't think he's quite there but probably will get there

[Use Of Weapons]

scabandari -- I think your perception of assassins is somewhat biased. We've seen several assassins in face-to-face confrontations. They're not all back-stabbers.

[scabandari]

true but it is what they specialise at and they probably wouldn't be able to stand up against many of the notable swordsmen in a fight but they will probably have a key role to play as ST is gathering them and i for one like Kalam but not cutter and apsalar as they complain too much

[Aptorian]

I think it's in a Kalam POV, we're told that in an average one on one fight, assassins lose to soldiers. Can you transfer that opinion to worlds greatest swordfighters beats worlds greatest ninjas? I don't know. I wouldn't expect Kalam to have a chance against Dassem but then again I wouldnt expect Nimander to have a chance against Cotillion or Apsalar.

I guess it's perspective... and stuff.

[Tapper]

It depends partly on the choice of weapon and partly on innate ability/ strength, I'd say.

With a simple dagger, you have little chance due to reach against anyone wielding a sword - although Rallick Nom does take out Turban Orr with a knife versus a rapier (talking about fast dueling weapons).

Kalam is a beast of a man with the power to boot and wields longknives - Koryk (quite an able fighter, but no ascendant level butcher) somewhere muses that these weapons give the speed of a knife without its downsides (less reach, no parrying ability). Pearl equiped his favorite 20 Claw in the same way, and they had quite a straight on melée together with Kalam which was more brawl than backstabbing.

Apsalar fought the Hounds of Shadow with knives and feet.
Dancer wouldn't be a master assassin feared everywhere if he couldn't also fight in normal combat. Same goes for Surly and Rake's assassins in GotM.

Lastly, let's not forget that Kalam was a soldier and a Bridgeburner, same for Apsalar as Sorry, and Throatslitter and Smiles can be qualified to fit the assassin-description. They may excell at the tricky stuff, but they are also soldiers with the 'first in, last out' motto in normal combat situations - and they survive it and play their part.

As for not lasting against other characters: that has more to do with their innate power/ ascendancy/ sorcery/ specialty than with the assassin's raw ability. It's the circumstances that count, and partly due to that, in SE's world, there simply are no equal matchups.

edited to correct the spelling of knives.

[Tarr]

Aptorian;346107 said:

I think it's in a Kalam POV, we're told that in an average one on one fight, assassins lose to soldiers. Can you transfer that opinion to worlds greatest swordfighters beats worlds greatest ninjas? I don't know. I wouldn't expect Kalam to have a chance against Dassem but then again I wouldnt expect Nimander to have a chance against Cotillion or Apsalar.

I guess it's perspective... and stuff.

Its to do with their weapons, when the assassin tries to kill picker hes using a knife and shes got a long sword, she can attack him without even coming in range of the knifes. The same for someone with a shield or crossbow(works both ways), the problem is that many of the assasins we've seen have access to warrens as well so that is another advantage they have against soldiers who don't.

Kalam is at LEAST in the top ten after the amount of claws we've seen him cut through not to mention the winged lizard on the ship! His style is also quite different from the other assassins focusing more on brute strength(like karsa) than speed and skill. He is probably even more skilled than dancer was (without the warren and mortal) as his comments on dancers skill come after he became a god (and therefore ascended).

[scabandari]

yeah and didn't ST say that even surly or Dancer wouldn't want to go up against Kalam in his prime and he definitely said that Apsalar was at least close to dancers level if not above it. I agree that it is to do with the weapons but the assasins tend to chose smaller weapons so won't have the same practiced skill whith the larger weapons than those that use them regularly

[Aptorian]

Let me put it in a different perspective then. If Malaz city has been full of battleready Malazan soldiers in DG or BH do you think he'd gotten as far? I don't think so.

[Tapper]

@ Apt: No, not if he went up straight against them. But then, his sneaking skills would have taken him through/over/behind/along them without (most of) them noticing.

[Tarr]

When kalam went up against those copies of himself he had a harder time than with the ordinary claws, cause like him they were using semi-military gear e.g. the armour and short sword

[James Hetfield]

Spinnock should probably be in the top five. He faced down Kallor for hours! I believe Kallor admits that Spinnock had openings but chose not to strike. Kallor has never been beaten though it sounds like Spinnock had a chance.

Plus his escape on Assail should be mentioned because only one T'lan Imass escaped that we know of.(from MOI)

If Kalam is in the top, then Apsalar must be above him because she killed hundreds of assassins in Malaz and Kalam barely had a few dozen.

I know i am going to get shit for this but Cutter should be considered a top assassin as well after the way he handled himself in TTH, unless Rallick Nom was very rusty. Should start a new thread----Top 5 assassins-----

[Veilside]

Tarr;346124 said:

Kalam is at LEAST in the top ten after the amount of claws we've seen him cut through not to mention the winged lizard on the ship! His style is also quite different from the other assassins focusing more on brute strength(like karsa) than speed and skill. He is probably even more skilled than dancer was (without the warren and mortal) as his comments on dancers skill come after he became a god (and therefore ascended).

I wouldn't be too sure about that at all. And if he's in the top 10, he's at the very bottom.
We've got Dancer, Apsalar, Lassen, Cowl, Topper, Vorcan, Serrat (dead, sure but there are other Andii assassin mages) etc. That's not even considering ones you encounter in Return, so no, I'm not entirely convinced Kalam is within the top 10.

Tarr;346172 said:

When kalam went up against those copies of himself he had a harder time than with the ordinary claws, cause like him they were using semi-military gear e.g. the armour and short sword

They weren't "copies" of him. And of course he had a harder time, they were Pearl's chosen Claw, of course they'd be better than your "standard" rank and file Claw.

[scabandari]

The top assasin would have to be Dancer as he is now the patron of assasins and apslar second as the rope infested her and she has ascendent powers but vorcan and cowls would be up there as they are powerful mages as well

[Veilside]

scabandari;346202 said:

The top assasin would have to be Dancer

Depends on the situation really.

[scabandari]

i'm talking about when he has his full ascendant powers available
Kalam might beat cowl and vorcan if he had his ontaral knife with him

[Aptorian]

In what situation would another assassin be better than Dancer or Cotillion?

I wonder about Cowl though. He's freaky.