[scabandari]

Another assasin probably wouldn't beat dancer but kalam might challenge him with his ontaral knife but cowl probably wouldn't but don't know enough about him yet as he might rely mainly on his magic

[Aptorian]

The first chapter of RCG suggests that Cowl likes to use his knives. He easily outsmarted... who was it? Korlat? Serrat?

[Illuyankas]

Serrat.

[Veilside]

Aptorian;346224 said:

In what situation would another assassin be better than Dancer or Cotillion?

I wonder about Cowl though. He's freaky.

One in which they've set up a trap probably. I've got no idea how good of a mage Dancer is but presumably there are assassin mages more powerful at the magic side than he is, and just as good in a straight up knife fight.


Cowl is very freaky.

[Aptorian]

But Dancer was a powerfull mageassassin. He was the leader of the Shadow Cult after all

[scabandari]

yeah but the shadow cult didn't seem to be as good as the claws so maybe in reality Dancer wasn't as good as surly but was more intelligent but yeah he probably was better but was distracted from training the shadow cult by his travels with kellanvad

[Tapper]

We never saw Dancer (before godhood) in a fight. There is of course the scene in NoK, but then there was Otataral dust all around, so any magic he and the claws had, was negated. He killed a shedload of Claw there and wounded Surly and Topper while protecting Kellanved.

He also turned Tayschrenn down from a position where he felt strong and confident enough to do so. Must mean he had some defenses ready - or he just knew Tayschrenn very well.

We hear about him in Bithital's temple, too (I think). Kalam feels humbled, there.
The only other time we really see him fight where he disposes of the Tiste Edur at Drift Avalii (as a God), from Crokus' PoV. Just a knife, a rope and inhuman speed and he kills loads. No need for magic, there.

He also was ready to face a keening Icarium later on. If there was really no chance he could turn Icarium back/ delay him significantly enough for ST to come up with an answer, ST and he would have taken their losses, I think, rather than sacrifice Dancer.

Edit: circumstantial evidence would be in Apsalar and how she dealt with te Hounds of Shadow, using his skills.

I don't want to sound like a fanboy, but I think Dancers/ Cotillions potential is frighteningly high, and I agree with Apt that at the least magically, we haven't seen him using all that potential so far.

[Obdigore]

Wow, what did you just say? (at scab)

[Aptorian]

Tapper;346283 said:

The only other time we really see him fight where he disposes of the Tiste Edur at Drift Avalii (as a God), from Crokus' PoV. Just a knife, a rope and inhuman speed and he kills loads. No need for magic, there.

I think he was shadowdancing on those ships, whuch I guess makes it all magic.

[Illuyankas]

Well, a magic rope.

[Thelomen Toblerone]

Or a rope with super fast acting poison blades on the end.

[Tapper]

@ Apt. You're right at that - only, how then did Dancer fight the Claw in NoK in the Throne Room? He is a serious beast if he manages that without access to the warren/ shadowdancing due to the Otataral.

The description of active Shadowdance given in Bonehunters: Apsalar starting up the dance does say that

Bonehunters, on p. 844 large paperback, said:

the figure's movements acquired a fluidity, sinuous, weaving a flow of shadows, and the approach that had been quick transferred into something else -

I can't find the scene where Lostara Yil describes her past as a Shadow Dancer - I think Rashan is involved, there?

[Thelomen Toblerone]

It definitely is yes, Lostara uses it to explain away Pearl's sensing of Cot, and we also know she was raised in a Rashan temple.

The Otataral would rule out the use of shadowdancing in NoK in that case, which would certainly suggest Dancer is pure win - as someone mentioned, to kill all those Claw, while protecting ST and himself, and injuring the top Claws in the business, all single handed, means serious skills.

[Use Of Weapons]

Shadow dancing doesn't always invoke Rashan. Lostara's quote is something to the effect, 'There are elements in the Shadow Dance that, if performed correctly, invoke Rashan.' I took it to mean that only particular sequences of the Dance invoke Rashan. Other than that, every time she did her exercises she'd be calling Shadow.

[Tarr]

I finally found proof that karsa is an ascendant from TtH samar devs POV page 596...

Quote

Samar Dev rose, shocked, baffled. Was it some strange kind of courtesy, to address her first? Was this thing in the habit of ignoring ascendants as if they were nothing more than bodyguards? and from her two formidable companions, not a sound.

So Karsa's definatly off the list...

[Aptorian]

Ah yes, that finally sealed the deal for me aswell...

[phart]

Obdigore;344629 said:

If Dassem is a broken man after his slaying of Rake, he will not be able to use his will as the sword requires, and will not be able to fight as he did ever again, perhaps.

Iccy and Mappo and Dassem and Karsa are all ascended. How you can say they aren't is beyond me.

Iccy is one of the most feared ever, and can possibly destroy the world.
Mappo is ascended, either due to the web of sorceries from the nameless ones, or just by his experience.
Dassem is worshiped as a good, and is mentioned as ascended.
Karsa has his OWN GODDAMN WARREN, and is immune to magic. I would say he is ascended at the very least, but possibly even Knight/King of HHOtataral or HHNegation, or HHWildCard?

Oh yes I am making up things now.

Pust in DG asks Iccy and Mappo Why they haven't ascended yet, though they could have ascended in the meantime.

[L'oric]

Top five sword fighters without mortal/ascendant complications with whatever equipment they have.

1.Dassem I really think there is no one that can compare. Rake manuevered an early end to his conflict with Dassem but there was nothing to suggest that Rake was better than Dassem. We do not know if Dassem was trying to get killed in some way either because I have no idea how Dassem would have gotten to Hood without being in the sword himself. Maybe it was all a test to see who could get themselves killed first? If that was the case then Rake was the better swordsman.


2. Mok/Seguleh 1st or 2nd: I am willing to stand on these three being equal or near enough not to make a difference.

3. Karsa: Speed and size combination and the sword together is just more than most will ever be able to handle.

4. Kallor: Can't say I like the guy, but he is a great character for the book. The true definition of an outside the lines bad guy in the series.

5. Tool: What can I say? Favorite all time character. There is a little bit of Raest in him. A little bit of the Malazan soldier. A ton of integrity and enough hubris to only get him in trouble sometimes.

[Blues]

Illuyankas;344315 said:

Also Osserc and Ruin. Draconus might be good, too. Oh, and Brood and Greymane.

Isn't Greymane dead? Or is this one of those typical "I'm gonna fake my death and then reappear in later books" type of things.

[Illuyankas]

Go read the Prologue and First Chapter of Return of the Crimson Guard, in the ROTCG forum. You might find them of interest.