[Aptorian]

Ok so lets get this discussion under way.

Tulas Shorn meets ST and Cots and a delicious exchange of words ensue.

Chapter 18, p. 658, TtH.

Quote

[snip]... "By the Abyss," it whispered, "have you two lost your minds? They cannot be here - the must not be among you -"
"Why?" Cotillion demanded, leaning forward in sudden interest.
But the Tiste Edur simply shook its head.
The two bone-white Hounds looked barely restrained, moments from exploding into a deadly charge. The hate was avid in their eyes.
"Why?" Cotillion asked again.
"The implacability of forces - we think to tame, but the wilderness remains. Control is a delusion in the mind of the self-proclaimed masters."
And that last word dripped with contempt. "The leash, you fools, is frayed - don't you understand anything at all?"
"Perhaps-"
Tulas Shorn lifted both hands again, but this time in a warding gesture. "We thought the same, once. We'd decieved ourselves into thinking we were the masters, that every force bowed to our command. And what happened? They destroyed everything!
"I don't-"
"Understand? I see that! They are conjurations - manifestations - they exist to warn you. They are the proof that all that you think to enslave will turn on you." And it backed away. "The end begins again, it begins again."
Cotillion stepped forward. "Light, Dark and Shadow- these three - are you saying -"
"Three?" Tulas Shorn laughed with savage bitterness "What then of Life? Fire and Stone and Wind? What, you fools, of the Hounds of Death? Manifestations, I said. They will turn - they are telling you that! That is why they exist! The fangs, the fury - all that is implacable in nature- each aspect but a variation, a hue in the maelstrom of destruction!

I also remember some mention of a "master" later in the book, but I can't find it.

So...

What's this all about? I can't seem to get my mind around it. If the hounds of light weren't supposed to be there? Where were they supposed to be?

Are the Hounds manifestations of the elements... or maybe the warrens? The way Shorn puts it, it sounds like the Hounds of Light appearing is caused by something that's happening on Wu. Are the Hounds of light showing up because the Deragoth reappeared?

EDIT: Also, is it just me or has the name "Shorn" shown up before somewhere in the books? Maybe an Edur?

Or could it be that "Shorn" just indicates that Tulas, like Trull, has been shorn from the Edur society?

[Illuyankas]

As far as I can tell, the Hounds are the manifestation of each aspect's untameable nature, eg. the bit that says 'Fuck your shit, buddy' to people trying to control it, only with big pointy teeth.

Oh, and Tulas Shorn appeared in an Eldest? Silann flashback/memory thing, in a list of notable Edur during the time of Karakanas. Scabby was first in the list, though.

[Tarr]

Didn't know where to post this, so I will just post it here.

Somewhere in the book (I can't find it again) there was this quote stating how the hounds of shadow are the shadows of the degaroth which is created from the light of the hounds (roughly), And yet there are ten hounds of light, seven degeroth and seven hounds of shadow. Why?

My theory is that there were originally ten hounds of darkness just like the hounds of light except somebody killed three of them. Since those three degaroth were dead they could no longer cast shadows and 3 of the hounds of shadow dissapeared. But the death of those degeroth would not effect the number of hounds of light as they are not dependant on the existance of the degaroth. The hounds of shadow would therefore be dependant on the existance of both the hounds of light and darkness, so presumably if you killed all the degaroth there would no longer be any hounds of shadow.

I am not to sure on this as after the death of the hounds of light we no longer hear anything of the hounds either to confirm they are well or that they have dissapeared.

[Illuyankas]

It says in the description of the Hounds of Light that one of them was recovering from giving birth, and three of them were really, really young. So, reinforcements.

[Tarr]

Forgotten about that, but could the shadow hounds still be dependant on the other hounds? and could there be more baby degeroth and shadow hounds on the way?

[scabandari]

weren't the deragoth rulers of the eres al and were wiped out apart from the last seven. The hounds can breed as aren't two of the hounds of shadow parents of the others with the hounds of light showing up the liosan or osserc have to be mentioned more soon. Didn't Tulas mention hounds of death so surely there are hounds for all the warrens

[Aptorian]

I think Tulas was implying that "there could be" hounds of death, fire, etc. If there had been and they were active, then I'm sure we would know. They would be as legendary as the Hounds of Shadow.

That there are now hounds of light loose, I think was some kind of indication that something is happening. Like the turmoil in the pantheon and the chaos that is seeping into order is causing more hounds to be created as a kind of "harbingers of death" or something. They're a warning sign.

[Tarr]

Or the hounds were lounging around in some other warren before someone came along and mastered them.

Or possibly the hounds only appear under certain circumstances or have already been wiped out, after all two of the hounds of light joined the hounds of shadow for a while and they seemed to get on (admitidly not great but still they didn't tear each other to shreds till much later). Perhaps the hounds were all living on seven cities together and they scared all the K'chain off.

After all rake killed two and so has karsa and I think that if they could do it the K'chain Matrons could kill a couple. On another point some of the hounds of light escaped so we are probably going to be seeing more of them later and will hopefully get the blanks filled in.

[Sinisdar Toste]

so who's the master of the hounds of light who wanted dragnipur? osserc? somehow i doubt that. possibly its whoever killed l'oric's familiar and usurped KL

[Veilside]

Sinisdar Toste;345162 said:

so who's the master of the hounds of light who wanted dragnipur? osserc? somehow i doubt that. possibly its whoever killed l'oric's familiar and usurped KL

The Tlan Imass killed l'oric's familiar.

[Sinisdar Toste]

he had more than one. he had greyfrog, one in onearms host, and one that was ruling KL in osrics stead. all this is laid out in HoC, im just too lazy too look up quotes right now.

[Veilside]

I always thought he only had one at any one time.
He had Greyfrog after the one ruling in KL was killed by the T'lan, but unless I'm mistaken it definately was the T'lan that killed the familiar. As for the ruler, no idea. Probably just some Tiste we've not come across yet.

[Sinisdar Toste]

thinking back it all is becoming clear i think... he did find greyfrog after learning that his other familiar had been murdered by legana breed's crew. (they were the ones, right?) but he did have a "servant" in onearms host who beamed him info about WJ and the BB, sounds like a familiar to me.

[Illuyankas]

Yeah, the one in KL was killed by the Imass that go to the First Throne and get slaughtered by Icarium. Never heard of the one in Dujek's army, though I haven't read HOC in a while. If you're referring to how the Apocalypse army found out about Coral, that's due to sympathisers within the Host, not a demon.

[Veilside]

I think it was them, can't remember for sure, but it sounds right.
That servant could have just been a mage.

[Sinisdar Toste]

a traitor??! heads will roll!

[Illuyankas]

PAGE CHECK ON TULAS SHORN

Page 520;

Quote

Endest Silann looked around, drawing in the sweet darkness, so pure, so perfect. It is almost as we once knew. Kharkanas, before she embraced Light, before the ones born of ashes lifted themselves up and took swords in hand. Scabandari. Ilgast Rend, Halyd Bahann. Esthala who dreamed of peace. Kagamandra Tulas Shorn, who did not.

[Skywalker]

So any informed speculation on how the Hounds of Light were taking Dragnipur for?

It couldn't be Osserc - he is in self-imposed exile. Couldn't be L'oric - he's off with the QoD as of the end of the bonehunters... Greyfrog lacks the imagination (and the opposable thumbs).

So some new usurper of Kurald Liosan?

[Aptorian]

Nefrias Bred strikes again!

[Skywalker]

Aptorian;346351 said:

Nefrias Bred strikes again!

So definitely not Aragan then?