[Aptorian]

I think you're putting way too much stock into the Andiis planning, Obdi.

Nobody makes plans for an event 400.000 years into the future. I don't care if they were Draconean Soletaken. And they certainly did not make any plans regarding a sword and a wandering gate that they back then knew nothing off.

I think it's more logical that their plans were regarding the future of the Andii. Alliances with Edur and the Exodus to Wu. There's still a lot we don't know about them. We don't know what caused Andarist Grief and what Scabbies involvement in that was. We don't know if there to this day are still Andii other places than on Wu, deep inside KG perhaps.

[Vengeance]

Obdigore;348034 said:

Why do you think Andarist was on the island? So that the sword would move on...

Isn't there a part when the mage-guy is remembering the meeting of the brothers where Andarist says he will not like doing what he has to? IE dying and getting rake killed?

Perhaps the tens of thousands of years of Andii history has been leading up to destroying the sword and getting Mommy D to turn back to her first children.

Think Silchas is in contact with Mommy D as well?

If he isn't yet he will be shortly...There was probably reason for him to be put into an Azarth. Remember when Rake was informed of were he was he just smiled and said that he envied him to a certain degree. Probably because Silchas would still be alive while Rake and Andarist would both be dead...

[Tremolo]

Obdigore;348034 said:

Why do you think Andarist was on the island? So that the sword would move on...

Isn't there a part when the mage-guy is remembering the meeting of the brothers where Andarist says he will not like doing what he has to? IE dying and getting rake killed?

Suppose what Andarist really said was that he didnt want to kill his own brother? So someone decided that he had to be forcibly removed from the "game" so that he couldnt interfere...

@Vengeance: It was a rhetorical question by writing HOC you are suggesting that I should look it up. But thx anyway.

[Vengeance]

Aptorian;348045 said:

I think you're putting way too much stock into the Andiis planning, Obdi.

Nobody makes plans for an event 400.000 years into the future. I don't care if they were Draconean Soletaken. And they certainly did not make any plans regarding a sword and a wandering gate that they back then knew nothing off.

I think it's more logical that their plans were regarding the future of the Andii. Alliances with Edur and the Exodus to Wu. There's still a lot we don't know about them. We don't know what caused Andarist Grief and what Scabbies involvement in that was. We don't know if there to this day are still Andii other places than on Wu, deep inside KG perhaps.

No I am pretty sure that they new that the Gate of Darkness (Sons of Darkness) was trapped in a sword. They might not of thought that it would take as long as it did but they had to figure that one of the only ways to get mother dark back would be to free the gate. Plus 400,000 years isn't a long time when you are immortal..

[Vengeance]

Tremolo;348063 said:

Suppose what Andarist really said was that he didnt want to kill his own brother? So someone decided that he had to be forcibly removed from the "game" so that he couldnt interfere...

@Vengeance: It was a rhetorical question by writing HOC you are suggesting that I should look it up. But thx anyway.

No I knew that you knew it and rather then write it out for you I just tossed in a quick HoC....

[Tremolo]

Cheeky bastid

Could Silchas be the Tiste Andiis knuckle in the hole? A player put away for hundred of thousands years untill needed. Like when Scabby is freed or some other nasty situation erupts.

[Aptorian]

Vengeance;348067 said:

No I am pretty sure that they new that the Gate of Darkness (Sons of Darkness) was trapped in a sword. They might not of thought that it would take as long as it did but they had to figure that one of the only ways to get mother dark back would be to free the gate. Plus 400,000 years isn't a long time when you are immortal..

At the time of the civil war in darkness it was still going to be a 200-300.000 years untill Draconus even made the damn thing. So they weren't planning on MD and the gate being bound.

As for Silchas being the burried knuckle (hee hee see what I did there), that sounds... improbable. You can't really plan for a need of a shaved knuckle occuring at the time that that the Azath just so happens to die. Azaths don't just spit out an ascendant because he's needed for some convergence.

I find ... was it Udinass?... theory more likely. Ruin realised the Andii and Edurs misscalculation. The Elder Gods and Elder Beings moving to stop or control the Tistes grab for power would be devastating. He knew that the future would bring so he simply let Scabby stab him and throw him in the Azath. 400.000 years later he comes out smelling of dead roses and all the Elder Gods are gone. This theory of course ignores what ever loyalty Ruin would had felt for his people, but the ones serving him on the KCCM demesne were all wiped out by the KCCM and Edur.

[Vengeance]

Wait I thought that Darconus had been working on the sword since the beginning of time.

So the during the civil war the gate was still in operation. So was the civil war before the introduction of light? I am at work and can't look it up...lazzy...

[Aptorian]

The introduction of light was what caused the schism.

I guess you're right that Draconus had been working on the sword since the elder times. But Mother Dark and darkness certainly weren't bound in the time of the civil war and the subsequent exodus. While he'd been working on it for a long time, it may have been hundreds of thousands of years before the wagon was ready and Draconus had the needed chains, etc. Making a million chains give or take a few more million must take a while

[Obdigore]

No RLY, it wasn't the light that caused the schism.

It was the fact that change needed to happen and many of the Andii refused to embrace it. Light was just one of the changes.

That is like saying Slavery was the cause for the US Civil War. It is the main 'reason' spouted, but not generally correct.

[Aptorian]

Maybe I need to reread TTH but it sounded to me like, while there was political intrigue and what not before, it was the coming of light and the birth of the Liosan and Edur that broke the camels back.

Mother Dark turned her back on Rake after he embraced chaos, but heonly did this when he saw that the Andii were threatened by the changes.

EDIT: oh and it's Apt, I love this Avatar switcharoo...

[Crimson Guardian]

The DU / AR battle was carefully planned ST,COT,Baruk,Hood and AR. I believe Anomander's plan all along was to give Mother Dark a chance to reunite with the Tiste Andii and stave off the assault of Chaos. Halting the advance of Chaos would be in the best interests of all of the other players and remove Anomander and Dragnipur from the field. Very appetizing for ST and COT in regards to their clouded plans. Hood's motive (besides halting Chaos) was to shed the crushing mantle of the Lord of Death. The problem, who would even face Anomander in mortal combat? The only ones remotely capable would be the Seguleh 1st, Dassem Ultor, Silchas Ruin ( not very likely) maybe Gruntle (he's basically the successor to Brukhalian, Mortal Sword of War, and we saw what he's capable of but he wouldn't do it) and of course Icarium (he's positively out of the equation because of his rage issues that could burn the entire world) Skinner's too unstable with an agenda all of his own and would love to possess Dragnipur. The only one who could actually face Anomander and be manipulated was Dassem. Rake had to be killed by Dragnipur so he could enter the Hold of the Sword. Remember Endest said Rake was the most intelligent man he had ever known and Gothos respected only him out of all the beings he had ever met because Anomander always made the right choice. Based on that we can assume Rake knew he had to get inside Dragnipur to have a chance at giving Mother Dark the option of returning to the Tiste by freeing the gate of Kurald Galain trapped by Draconus. Rake had stopped killing so he had to know Chaos was encroaching on the gate so time was running out in regards to freeing Kurald Galain. Killing Hood would be the only way to get Dassem to face him because his vengeance is all that mattered. Dassem would have to kill Anomander with Vengeance/Grief and break Dragnipur to get to Hood. That's why Anomander said "come and get him" provoking Dassem to engage. Hood's not an idiot and didn't want to actually die, just shed the 'Death' mantle so his hordes were present to stave off Chaos until Rake could complete his ritual and save the KG gate. Mother Dark reconciling with the Tiste was a gamble that he knew would cost his life. Instead of allowing Dassem to kill him with Vengeance Rake allowed Dragnipur to be driven into his skull which provoked the 'cheating' outcry. Evidently that defence used by Rake was a giveaway (sort of like suicide by cop) Evidently the rest of the plan was to break Dragnipur to free Hood and he was no longer the Lord of Death. Releasing Draconus had to have been a necessary evil / side effect of freeing Hood. The goal here by Anomandaris - free Kurald Galain and give his people the chance to reconcile with Mother Dark. The rest of the plan fell into place including Endest holding off the light threatening to destroy the KG pocket before the gate could be established in Black Coral and holding off Kallor, ST, HoL, Lady Envy, Spite , etc from possessing Dragnipur, so it could be broken by Caladan completing the bargain. Mael obviously didn't want this scenario to take place (for reasons unknown) so he tried to stop Dassem on his way to Genabackis. Remember Hood was having second thoughts about the plan and voicing that very sentiment when Rake cut his head off, probably about whether the sword would actually be secured and brken by Caladan Brood. Just my take on the events.

[Illuyankas]

I agree in principle (apart from the Mael bit) but DAMN, man, put some paragraph breaks in!

[Aptorian]

Crimson Guardian;348799 said:

The DU / AR battle was carefully planned ST,COT,Baruk,Hood and AR. I believe Anomander's plan all along was to give Mother Dark a chance to reunite with the Tiste Andii and stave off the assault of Chaos. Halting the advance of Chaos would be in the best interests of all of the other players and remove Anomander and Dragnipur from the field. Very appetizing for ST and COT in regards to their clouded plans. Hood's motive (besides halting Chaos) was to shed the crushing mantle of the Lord of Death. The problem, who would even face Anomander in mortal combat? The only ones remotely capable would be the Seguleh 1st, Dassem Ultor, Silchas Ruin ( not very likely) maybe Gruntle (he's basically the successor to Brukhalian, Mortal Sword of War, and we saw what he's capable of but he wouldn't do it) and of course Icarium (he's positively out of the equation because of his rage issues that could burn the entire world) Skinner's too unstable with an agenda all of his own and would love to possess Dragnipur. The only one who could actually face Anomander and be manipulated was Dassem. Rake had to be killed by Dragnipur so he could enter the Hold of the Sword. Remember Endest said Rake was the most intelligent man he had ever known and Gothos respected only him out of all the beings he had ever met because Anomander always made the right choice. Based on that we can assume Rake knew he had to get inside Dragnipur to have a chance at giving Mother Dark the option of returning to the Tiste by freeing the gate of Kurald Galain trapped by Draconus. Rake had stopped killing so he had to know Chaos was encroaching on the gate so time was running out in regards to freeing Kurald Galain. Killing Hood would be the only way to get Dassem to face him because his vengeance is all that mattered. Dassem would have to kill Anomander with Vengeance/Grief and break Dragnipur to get to Hood. That's why Anomander said "come and get him" provoking Dassem to engage. Hood's not an idiot and didn't want to actually die, just shed the 'Death' mantle so his hordes were present to stave off Chaos until Rake could complete his ritual and save the KG gate. Mother Dark reconciling with the Tiste was a gamble that he knew would cost his life. Instead of allowing Dassem to kill him with Vengeance Rake allowed Dragnipur to be driven into his skull which provoked the 'cheating' outcry. Evidently that defence used by Rake was a giveaway (sort of like suicide by cop) Evidently the rest of the plan was to break Dragnipur to free Hood and he was no longer the Lord of Death. Releasing Draconus had to have been a necessary evil / side effect of freeing Hood. The goal here by Anomandaris - free Kurald Galain and give his people the chance to reconcile with Mother Dark. The rest of the plan fell into place including Endest holding off the light threatening to destroy the KG pocket before the gate could be established in Black Coral and holding off Kallor, ST, HoL, Lady Envy, Spite , etc from possessing Dragnipur, so it could be broken by Caladan completing the bargain. Mael obviously didn't want this scenario to take place (for reasons unknown) so he tried to stop Dassem on his way to Genabackis. Remember Hood was having second thoughts about the plan and voicing that very sentiment when Rake cut his head off, probably about whether the sword would actually be secured and brken by Caladan Brood. Just my take on the events.

HOLY WALL OF TEXT BATMAN

See I'm still not buying this whole Dassem needs to be kept away from Hood thing and the idea that someone needs to protect Dragnipur.

The Dassem vs Hood thing wasn't even needed. First of, what is stoping Dassem from just entering Hoods realm in the first place? How did Dassem now that a convergence was coming in Darujistan? Is he told something in RCG that we don't know? because otherwise Erikson failed to make a proper reason fro Dassem coming to Darujistan in the first place.

The critical flaw in using Dassem to kill Rake, besides him braking and becomming useless anyway, is this. What if Traveller had become seriously pissed and in his thirst for vengeance had stabbed himself with Dragnipur after Rake died? Then you'd have had Dassem and Hood inside Dragnipur with the God of Death having nowhere to run to.

As for the whole protection thing, like I wrote earlier, why take the sword to darujistan? Why didn't Hood and Brood meet up in Rakes basement and take care of it there? What was the need for all that chaos? Why draw all that attention? No need to get Shadow involved. No need to let anyone know.

To be honest I think it was just Erikson wanting to write an awesome convergence and the story we saw unfold was the best excuse he could come up with for the convergence happening.

[caladanbrood]

I'm assuming there's a reason fro him going to Darujhistan in RotCG, which is set before it. Maybe someone else can confirm.

As for why it was in Darujhistan... well, the best reason I can think of is that Hood needed a way to become physically manifest in the human realm, which appears to be quite difficult for him to do. Hence he used Gaz and Thordy. They were in Darujhistan, so that's where they went. Obviously the longer he was in his full manifestation, the more people died, so they went as close as possible to the point of his manifestation.

[Aptorian]

Well it was a good thing Hood didn't just command 12 or so acolytes to meet him in Rakes basement and let them commit ritual suicide then.

Oh wait...

I don't mean to sound negative, but to be honest it was a bit flimsy the basis of that convergence.

[caladanbrood]

Maybe Rake's ego meant he didn't want to go out with a whimper, he wanted a proper fight, against the best of the best Which he wouldn't have got if he's just said to Dassem "Oh, can you come to Coral and kill me with my own sword, pretty please?"

[Aptorian]

That doesn't sound at all like Rake.

[flea]

While "falling on one's sword" is used metaphorically these days, it's origin is literal. Why does Rake need Daseem?

[Skywalker]

caladanbrood;348863 said:

Maybe Rake's ego meant he didn't want to go out with a whimper, he wanted a proper fight, against the best of the best Which he wouldn't have got if he's just said to Dassem "Oh, can you come to Coral and kill me with my own sword, pretty please?"

Actually... a city is the worst place you want to have a controlled encounter. There could be unforeseen ascendants/ powers watching that might make a play for the sword that is the prize.

If Rake/ ST/ Cot/ Hood did want to engineer the DU vs AR bout, why not do it out on the Rhivi plains, with no one watching (a-la Tattersail vs Bellurdan/ Hounds vs. Rake)?

Also, the whole "Why didn't Rake just cut himself?" question is just plain unanswered. There is nothing to say Dragnipur detects accidental cuts vs intentional stabbings... besides, Rake's facehug of D'pur was kinda sorta accidental (or unintended by DU) anyway.