[Cougar]

I'm not inclined to think that Hood had any doubts about the plan per se. Maybe the manner of his death or something, if you look at his attitude once in Dragnipur it's not like he's ranting and raving and pissed off beacuse he'd changed his mind and Rake had cut him down before he got chance to say anything. In fact his attitude was more like 'everything is going according to plan so lets get on with it'.

[flea]

Skywalker;348899 said:

Also, the whole "Why didn't Rake just cut himself?" question is just plain unanswered. There is nothing to say Dragnipur detects accidental cuts vs intentional stabbings... besides, Rake's facehug of D'pur was kinda sorta accidental (or unintended by DU) anyway.

Which is the point of my post. It seems really unnecessary to me, unless someone can come up with a reason why Rake believes Daseem needs to be emotionally broken.

Rake doesn't seem to give a damn about his reputation--he seems to personify integrity--so there is no need that I can see for others to think that Daseem bests him. Besides, I assume that more people than Karsa recognize that he throws the fight (unless Karsa is wrong).

For that matter, I can't believe that Daseem doesn't recognize that Rake throws the fight either.

I just have a lot of questions about this, and I don't think I have read a really good explanation.

[Illuyankas]

I'm pretty sure he did recognise it.

[flea]

So what is the purpose of the fight? Why doesn't Rake take himself out?

Rake would surely know that Daseem would figure it out.

It's not as if Rake is like the Terminator, who is programmed against killing himself.

I'm just trying to figure out a purpose for the scene.

[caladanbrood]

Voluentary suicide... it's just not a way many people can manage, even if they know they have to. A lot easier to get someone else to kill you.

[flea]

Perfectly understandable, particularly human, but Rake isn't human.

Since I can't think of any other explanation, yours will have to do.

[blackzoid]

Aptorian;348841 said:

HOLY WALL OF TEXT BATMAN

See I'm still not buying this whole Dassem needs to be kept away from Hood thing and the idea that someone needs to protect Dragnipur.

The Dassem vs Hood thing wasn't even needed. First of, what is stoping Dassem from just entering Hoods realm in the first place? How did Dassem now that a convergence was coming in Darujistan? Is he told something in RCG that we don't know? because otherwise Erikson failed to make a proper reason fro Dassem coming to Darujistan in the first place.

The critical flaw in using Dassem to kill Rake, besides him braking and becomming useless anyway, is this. What if Traveller had become seriously pissed and in his thirst for vengeance had stabbed himself with Dragnipur after Rake died? Then you'd have had Dassem and Hood inside Dragnipur with the God of Death having nowhere to run to.

As for the whole protection thing, like I wrote earlier, why take the sword to darujistan? Why didn't Hood and Brood meet up in Rakes basement and take care of it there? What was the need for all that chaos? Why draw all that attention? No need to get Shadow involved. No need to let anyone know.

To be honest I think it was just Erikson wanting to write an awesome convergence and the story we saw unfold was the best excuse he could come up with for the convergence happening.

I think Erikson's plan was to have the Rake-Hood-Dassem standoff at some point. This was foreshadowed back in Midnight Tides after all with the reading of the Tiles. The only problem is the execution. How could Erikson logically set Dassem against Rake if his quarry is Hood?

I'm guessing that:
1: Hood has never been manifest in the world since Dassem swore vengence against him.
2: Dassem could not enter Hood's realm and win.

3: Rake needs to both destroy Dragnipur and free the gate to Mother Dark. Without the Gate to Mother Dark, Dragnipur is still a good weapon but with the gate chained inside it, its a ticking time bomb.

4: So Erikson decides to write up that Hood manifests in the world, (perhaps attracting Dassem to the scene)then is killed by Rake and enters the world of Dragnipur with his army.
Problem A: Hood's army doesn't seem to accomplish much aside from holding back chaos from the wagon for a little while. Why is it necessary that Hood be taken by Dragnipur? Is it escape from Daseem? He was fine where he was (in Hood's realm). Is it because Hood was sick of the role of Lord of the Dead?
I'm cynical enough to think that Erikson needed to "weaken" Rake before his big fight with Daseem and the only way to do that would be to carry the weight of the dead army.

5: Dassem sees Rake with the body of Hood lying beside him. (He can't be that blind!)
Problem B: Why does Dassem fight Rake? Without knowing what Cotillion said to Daseem, it doesn't make any sense. Hood is "dead" , Daseem has won. Alternatively if he still wants to get Hood somehow, surely it should be Dassem who cheats in the fight and allow Rake to kill him, thus entering Dragnipur in pursuit of Hood.

6: Rake gets killed and enters Dargnipur. Dissolves and restores the link to Mother Dark.
Problem C: As everyone else has noted, all Rake has to do is fall on his sword back in his palace. Why bother getting everyone else involved? Get Sillanh to protect it in case any Ascendents come along and then get Brood to break it.

[tiam]

5: Dassem sees Rake with the body of Hood lying beside him. (He can't be that blind!)
Problem B: Why does Dassem fight Rake? Without knowing what Cotillion said to Daseem, it doesn't make any sense. Hood is "dead" , Daseem has won. Alternatively if he still wants to get Hood somehow, surely it should be Dassem who cheats in the fight and allow Rake to kill him, thus entering Dragnipur in pursuit of Hood.

Dassem hasnt won though has he? i think another important point is that Dassem must know that Dragnipur traps souls. He may also know that Rakes gonna break it soon. I mean ascendents have sensitivities. And even if he didnt know Rake was gonna break it it offers only temporary death like an Azath per se just magnified. So Dassem likely wanted Hood dead as in finality like going through Hoods gate never coming back etc.

Furthermore was the big resurection SE mentioned Brys in RG

[Crimson Guardian]

Perhaps outright suicide is something Rake cannot contemplate. Falling on the sword would be the best way to solve the problem without involving everyone and relying on unpredictable timetables and personalities. If suicide is taboo than a plan would have to be set in motion to accomplish the task.

As far as being killed by Dragnipur and entering the Hold of the Sword or dying and going to Hood's realm we might be assuming it's the same thing. I believe they could be different. Draconus appearing in RotCG seemed to be no different than other living things whereas Shorn was obviously different. Maybe Dragnipur was simply a version of a maximum security prison and since Hood's realm was denied, death didn't actually occur just eternal toil pulling the wagon away from Chaos. If the sword breaks everyone inside are released. That's what appeared to happen.

[Blacksox]

I think it is probably one of those things to be revealed later. I think Rake did everything like he did for a particular reason. It's just another example of Rake thinking differently and further ahead than others as has been demonstrated frequently.

Also I think SE had to find a way to have Rake go out in a dramatic way and he just could not bring himself to have Rake actually beaten and destroyed without Rake "allowing" it to happen. This may also set up another interesting arch where someone like Osseric or Silchas Ruin comes after Dassem to avenge Rake.

[vaiski]

blackzoid;348933 said:

4: So Erikson decides to write up that Hood manifests in the world, (perhaps attracting Dassem to the scene)then is killed by Rake and enters the world of Dragnipur with his army.
Problem A: Hood's army doesn't seem to accomplish much aside from holding back chaos from the wagon for a little while. Why is it necessary that Hood be taken by Dragnipur? Is it escape from Daseem? He was fine where he was (in Hood's realm). Is it because Hood was sick of the role of Lord of the Dead?

I think it is the latter - perhaps he could not simply walk away with all the dead people in his realm, or he would not do it due to sense of duty or something. Rake offered him a way out since most of Hood's army would die fighting the chaos.

[Andy_is]

i like to think that rake just wanted to kick off one last time. you know... like a farewell tour

[Dragnipurake]

well, DU was 'broken' at Rake's death. Maybe that was what hood got from the deal.

[Traveller]

Maybe... Dragnipur only traps a soul when wielded with power and intention. Rake just cutting himself on it wouldn't have been sufficient. Then, the only way to use the sword to kill himself, without giving it to someone else, was to have someone 'best' him in a fight... someone with intent to win. Dassem was the only one who could best him. So he was lured (against his will, almost) into the fight, with Hood as the irrisistable bait. He was used... and he saw that.

[Silencer]

phart;341483 said:

Damn so my favourite character dies a final death, he won't be coming back i think.

To be honest he had to die before the end, too powerful a character in mind and body to have around at the end.

What a remarkable person been hugely annoying to not have him in any books (since MOI) with just titbits here and there. Also GOTHOS gave him that much PRAISE, only person who he respected, as soon as i read that line i knew for certain he was going to die. To be honest after DU helped Rake get into Draginspur (I say helped as i think Rake who might have still lost to DU "in a fight" had planned to go in and sword out the mess in person) i was a bit shaky was this meant to happen and obviously the clues about it being "wrong" were there, but still. . . . then of course i rememebered who i was recalling and sat back reading awaiting Rake and by extension Erikson to amaze me once more.


Anyway my question is: Why was DU needed? Couldn't Rake just kill himself or get Brood to do it? That way protect the sword much better? Obviously it makes for better reading to have DU do it but seems elaborate.

also i know think there is no doubt DU is the pre-eminemt blade master. Though one could argue i suppose that since Rake knew he had to lose he therefore did.

What do you guys think?

Funny that my first thought (once I had recovered from the shock), was that Rake was too powerful to have around.
I don't think we can call Dassem the best swordsman - that's what I took the "cheated" comment to mean, actually....that Dassem cheated to beat Rake. He didn't actually get past Rake's guard - he frigging pushed Rake's own sword into his head! I think this makes the best swordspeople Rake and Dassem, in any case. Not one above the other. They were equals.

Anyway. Salute! To one of the best characters in the books!

[Use Of Weapons]

I think the one urgent, overriding reason that Rake would not simply fall on his sword is this: how would that appear to his followers, who have trusted their Lord for thousands of years to be the hope that they had lost, to give them purpose when they had lost theirs. In all that time, he had never forsaken them, never seemed in any way to quail at the burden. He was, literally, the best of them. To see, or hear of, him committing suicide -- what kind of impact would that have had on the already battered psyches of the Tiste Andii? Rake would never do that.

[Grief]

Yeah but to everyone there for the fight it was obvious enough that Dassem didn't win by being the better swordsman, so I reckon its pretty obvious Rake let himself die, and that was his plan all along, as he needed to get in and free the gate(exactly how is uncertain, save by merits of his enormous power I suppose, then again, at one point it says Rake is a gate in Kurald Galain himself, think its when hes a dragon in Memories of Ice). I think perhaps Rake had to let Dassem kill him, so that Dassem would momentarily give up his quest out of grief, and not follow into Dragnipur, thus allowing him to remove the gate.

Theres a lot of strange stuff going on, and im not sure if i'm even certain Rakes dead. For one it says he gets put back into Kurald Galain, where he may find a path that leads back to his mother, there are lots of people who have survived even though there bodies have been killed, for example Draconus, who comes back, even though he was killed by Dragnipur. There are lots of other examples throughout the books. Its possible he just doesn't come back, having achieved everything he set out to do. Also you briefly here MD saying something like "Anomander...I accept" cant remember the exact line. Possibly meaning hes back to Kurald Galain, or just that she is so moved by his sacrifice that she accepts it. Would his body dying even cost him that much power, his body dies and he's still powerful enough to do hes stuff within Dragnipur.

On a more logical point, is it even possible to die if there is no God of Death.

We'll see what happens when the series is completed, and personnally I can hardly wait.

[Aptorian]

The warren of death and the element of death are still there. It's the king of the House of Death that is gone.

[Grief]

"Whatever he asks, Traveller does not want it."

" 'You saw true' he said baring his teeth, his gaze fixed upon that fallen body. 'As did Traveller, and see what it has done to him' "

"These are the choices availible to the spirit. There was no doubt, none at all, as to which one had been chosen by the Son of Darkness"

"Yes, the moon died, but a rebirth was coming"

"...upon the Son of Darkness. Upon what he desired, what he willed to be"

"Anomander Rake was scattered into the realm of Kurald Galain, on to its own long-sealed path that might-just might- lead to the very feet of mother Dark"

"And Nimander heard her say, 'Ah, my son...I accept' "

Opinions on what some of these mean, cause frankly i'm rather confused. Is Rake even Dead? Says he goes to Kurald Galain, does this mean he lives in spirit(somewhat like Scabandari, yet not chained) or does it just mean his spirit is past on, and has gone home. I believe Anomander deliberately allowed Dassem to kill him, and maneuvered the situation until he could die by Dragnipur, so he could free the gate. Would chaos kill him, or with so much of it in his blood would he, like K'rul speaks of doing just return there, as if he is of it. I don't know, but I would like to hear what others think. Can't wait to read the end of this awesome series.

[Illuyankas]

He's probably chilling with Endest in Andii heaven right now.