[D'rek]

I think most of you guys are reading way too much into the 'Elder' bit. Despite the fact that it is usually capitalized, it is a diverse term that can be used in many ways, most of which are subject to relativity anyways. When ST proclaims "Elders!" at Menandore's little get-together, I'm sure he's cognizant of the fact that Hood is even more elder then the Errant, but he is saying "Elders!" about the Errant and not about Hood because Hood is usually chilling with the Path-gods while the Errant is still nostalgically playing with the Holds. The word is more frequently used to refer simply to the age of any god, and it's not hard to imagine that some person who's only been alive 20 years might not distinguish long-lost gods from thousands of years ago with long-lost gods from hundreds-of-thousands of years ago.

It's a subjective term, there's no reason to think that the sporadic use of this one adjective refutes everything else we've learned.

[Ivan the terrible]

I'd be willing to concede the blood theory as sufficient. Though the idea of primordial balance sticks in my craw,...as far as i can see no one has proven the Errant isn't an elemental force. As old as Krul, mael or all the rest.

Perhaps all elemental forces were just that, until theorised by some group of worshippers as an entity. As balance is not necessary for creation, only by observing the play of cause and effect could finally the people of Lether finally determine the nature of the primordial force and define their God.

I think Onrack mentioned this theory of naming power to control it in HOC somewhere.
(I don't have my books, but on a side note I bought a French translation of deadhouse gates)

As for the arbitrary meaning of Elder perhaps...but someone below (Otataral Dragon) sighted specific use of Elder as a self referential term by the Errant. I don't think this was arbitrary as his very use designated a species.

[Seed]

I still can't help but think that the bunches of dead Forkrul Assail are important. It wouldn't surprise me if the Errant does turn out to date from back with K'rul et al. I'm beginning to believe that he was orginally worshipped by a portion of the FA - perhaps the reason why Gothos zinged Kilmandaros with that "your children in this realm have lost their way" in the prologue for RG IIRC. Anyway, the Errant eventually got fed up with it, perhaps they weren't jumping through the right hoops, so he went a bit spastic D'rek style and killed the lot of them off. Time passes, he diminishes and shacks up in Lether eventually, forced by loss of power to merge/force ascend the original consort. Pulls a few strings here and there and soon worship of the holds is on the rise.

Tissue thin theory I know, but the whole errant shield anvil attempt/dead forkrul/udinaas vision thing , I can't brush it under the carpet, it's got to tie into everything somehow.
I think it's time for another re-read from MTides onwards again.

[OtataralDragon]

I'm far from convinced that Hood is more Elder than thou - I mean, than the Errant. We've had several indications that there's a strong FA/Errant connection, and the FA are one of the Four Founding Races just like the Jaghut. Seed's theory is one possibility. Another is that the Errant was himself an FA who ascended.

Hood was the head of one of the Holds; the Errant is/was the Master of the Holds, collectively. Just because Paran stepped into an already existing/possible - but vacant - position, doesn't mean the Errant did the same. Perhaps he created it.

[Optimus Prime]

Seed;326597 said:

I still can't help but think that the bunches of dead Forkrul Assail are important. It wouldn't surprise me if the Errant does turn out to date from back with K'rul et al. I'm beginning to believe that he was orginally worshipped by a portion of the FA - perhaps the reason why Gothos zinged Kilmandaros with that "your children in this realm have lost their way" in the prologue for RG IIRC. Anyway, the Errant eventually got fed up with it, perhaps they weren't jumping through the right hoops, so he went a bit spastic D'rek style and killed the lot of them off. Time passes, he diminishes and shacks up in Lether eventually, forced by loss of power to merge/force ascend the original consort. Pulls a few strings here and there and soon worship of the holds is on the rise.

Tissue thin theory I know, but the whole errant shield anvil attempt/dead forkrul/udinaas vision thing , I can't brush it under the carpet, it's got to tie into everything somehow.
I think it's time for another re-read from MTides onwards again.

That's an interesting theory about what Gothos said to Killy Seed, I like it, considering I've thought for a while that the FA, or at least a portion of them, were at one time followers of the Errant.

Perhaps he was around when the FA and the Liosan were warring, and their spat had to do with that encounter.

[Ivan the terrible]

Certainly,...I just put that forward to suggest that predating the present pantheon doesn't suffice to be designated Elder...

I think Seed's theory to be perfectly reasonable...and maybe i'm just reading too much into the MT creation myths, but i think it perhaps goes farther. The FA thing seems a symptomatic problem for those Elemental forces.

I reckon he's an Elder a la Krul, and Mael.

Considering he's the only God other than CG that we've seen Bugg interact with a modicum of respect, and maybe more importantly forth right openness about who he is...it'll be interesting to how Mael reacts, if he meets them to the younger pantheon.
Can any ROTCG readers corroborate this? Confirm or deny?

Just a question...isn't Starvald now a warren and not a hold? If so, who determined this change? Presumably it was a hold when the world was young, much like Omtose and Tellann...If this change was wrought voluntarily by it's owners/users.

Are we assuming that the ice ritual stifled this change or that the Errant himself relied on his preference for the flux of the Holds?

[Raraku]

I think that Warrens always existed and that their positions have changed like from wandering to Holds to Houses.
Cause of Gothos' ritual, on Lether it didnt change.
Although the T'lan Imass did their ritual in the time of the Holds so how did they adapt to their Tellan Warren becoming a House if there is such a House?
Do the original founders still use the Holds when using their warrens or do they use the Houses magic?

[Wordmerchant]

Xander;326603 said:

...I've thought for a while that the FA, or at least a portion of them, were at one time followers of the Errant.

BoneHunters; Chapter 8 - conversation between Ganath and Paran - "...He walked the path of neutrality, yet flavored it with a pleasure taken taken in impermanence. The Errant's enemy was ennui, stagnation. This is why the Forkrul Assail sought to annihilate him. And all his mortal followers."

To me the concept of neutrality does not fit at all with the FA rigid code of ethical justice. I just can't get my head around them following the Errant.

[Ivan the terrible]

Maybe they just got sick of it...?

[Gem Windcaster]

Maybe there are two different FA. Or different cultures within the FA. It's not even a long shot, it's actually pretty probable.

[Oseric]

isnt the Errant suppose to be neutral because he is the Master of the Holds, which preceded the Houses and Warrens...

Paran is now Master of the Deck and he is suppose to be neutral but obviously he is not so neutral having a connection with the malazans so the same can easily be said for the Errant.. he likes some people and not others.

also Paran was told by many not to sanction the House of Chains but he still did it...

so he and the Errant do as they please as far as i can see

[Lisheo]

I can prove the Errant aint as old as the Elder Gods... He was the Master of the Holds. The Holds existed a lot later than the primordial darkness of the Elders.
Bugg treated the Errant with respect so an angry Eldering God didnt attack Tehol lol.
The FA attack the Errant?Well, Im thinking, if he is their card, no matter whether they follow him or not, if he turns against their ideals, they would attack...
The Errant is free because he is fallen from power. Paran is free because he was chosen pretty much accidentally, according to MoI.

[Aptorian]

No the Errant is free because he chose to walk among his followers. Remember that his priests became pissed because he chose to remove himself, sort of like how Fener was pulled from his warren.

[Lisheo]

Really? lol ive got to reread the books again soon!