[Danyah]

Don't think a mortal can shape the holds, but then we can continue yes/no-ing till Erikson explains in his books, or we can ask Pat if he explains in ThT.

[Aptorian]

The Errant was the Master of the Tiles so a mortal can indeed manipulate the holds. Remember the Imass and TTT weren't immortal either.

[Danyah]

I got the impression that he is to the Holds what K'rul is to the warrens, and that they both have become powerless over the years. Possible that I've got it wrong.

[Aptorian]

The Errant was to the Holds what Paran is to the Houses.

K'rull in his prime I imagine would have wiped the floor with the Errant. But it's hard to know with this blood worship buisness.

[ShadowOwl]

Aptorian;325448 said:

EDIT: We don't know if this realm forging ever took place. It could just be a myth, just like Brother Light and Father Shadow and the Child of Indescribable Terror.

The RotCG prologue has an interesting take on this and a bit from it is Draconis to Denul/Child of Earth: "A troubling manifestation of existence, this world. All is change and flux. Yet I find in it a strange attraction. Perhaps I shall remain a time here." Now I believe this is "our realm" since Menadore said he found Sheltatha in this realm and had Envy and Spite with her. So I think the realm forging was true enough and the rest of the prologue sheds light (*sorry) on the rest of the myths.

[Danyah]

Well, the Errant gets power from blood too, and if you really want to piss me off, start a Who'd-win-thread.


First would come the three Fulcra known as the Realm Forgers. Fire, the silent scream of light, the very swirl of the stars themselves. Then Dolmen, bleak and rootless, drifting aimless in the void. And into the path of these two forces, the Errant. Bearer of its own unknowable laws, it would draw Fire and Dolmen into fierce wars. Vast fields of destructions, instance upon instance of mutual annihilation. But occasionally, rarely, there would be peace made between the two contestants. And Fire would bathe but not burn, and Dolmen would surrender its wandering ways, and so find root.
The Errant would then weave its mysterious skein, forging the Holds themselves. Ice. Eleint. Azath. Beast. And into their midst would emerge the remaining Fulcra. Axe, Knuckles, Blade, the Pack, Shapefinder and White Crow.' - MT, TPB, p.31




Pretty much more resemblance to K'rul, though I admit that in the first empire, his role was more like Parans'.

[Aptorian]

Yes but again, these are myths. You can't really picture the Errant as one who creates worlds? Makes planets, etc. can you? If anything there was more to it.

Also Things like Knuckles, The Pack, and White Crow we know had nothing to do with creation. That's a Forkrul Assail, a Pack of first empire D'ivers and Silchas Ruin.

[The Archivist]

Apt, I am not sure of the answer for this but are we sure the Pack referred to here is the shapechangers? What is the group collective for hounds? Just pondering out loud. Any chance we have the wrong Pack? Knowing Dessimbalackis' supposed connection to the Hounds of Darkness?

[Danyah]

I second ShadowOwl. That seems like Wu without the Holds. It only needs Holds to be shaped, and I'm pretty sure that's where the Errant comes in.

[Aptorian]

The Archivist;325480 said:

Apt, I am not sure of the answer for this but are we sure the Pack referred to here is the shapechangers? What is the group collective for hounds? Just pondering out loud. Any chance we have the wrong Pack? Knowing Dessimbalackis' supposed connection to the Hounds of Darkness?

It would be obvious to connect the Pack of the Tiles with the D'ivers God the Jheck are coming to join. Erikson is devious but there's no reason to outright decieve us in a matter as small as that story arc.

[OtataralDragon]

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, so I'll quote it. In the dream Udinaas has of the Errant and Menandore arguing over who gets him, both of them refer to the Errant as an Elder God.


RG, chapter 12, p. 473-74 pb:

"This one is mine! My T'orrud Segul! Look at these dead - they must be saved, delivered, they must be - "

And now another voice souded, behind Udinaas, high, distant, a voice of the sky itself. "No, Errant. These dead are Forkrul Assail. Dead by your own hand. You cannot kill them to save them - "

"Dread witch, you know nothing! They're the only ones I can save!"

"The curse of Elder Gods - look at the blood on your hands. It is all of your own making. All of it."

[....]

It was the Errant's turn to laugh. "When last did you visit that... child, Menandore?"

"What does that mean?"

"Only this. He is grown now. His mind is his own. Not yours, Menandore. You are warned, and this time I demand nothing in return. Elder Gods, my dear, can on occasion know mercy."

She snorted - a gust of raw power. I have heard that. Fine propaganda, the morsel you feed to your starving, pathetic worshippers."

[Ivan the terrible]

Well spotted.

So can we now place the poor bastard in a similar one to Krul, Mael and all others fucked by mortals; put Trull's death on mans tragic sensibilities and the demands it entails...and leave this here hard working God to his day job.

Am i in the complete minority in thinking the Errant an ok guy?

[Gem Windcaster]

Ivan the terrible;325579 said:

Am i in the complete minority in thinking the Errant an ok guy?

I don't think we have any precise numbers. But who cares?

It's about having your own opinion. I know for a fact that there are people agreeing with me, and I get support from them, even if it's not always out loud.

I think he's scum. You don't. We'll just stick to our respective opinions, and leave it at that.

[Sinisdar Toste]

amen sister!

[Ivan the terrible]

Yeah i guess in the scheme of things, of course it doesn't matter...and I'm not asking for your agreement in my estimation of his personality. But the broader question about the nature and specific quality of his god hood is under question.

And if we were to follow your reasoning on this matter there would be no point at all to this forum.

The textual evidence seems (at least, to me) to support a general theme of helplessness amongst the elder pantheon.

Actually maybe helplessness is a bit strong, certainly a vulnerability. This theme goes along way towards determining the nature of the malazan cosmos, and the causal relations between characters, deities an all those in between.

[Aptorian]

OtataralDragon;325561 said:

I didn't see it mentioned in this thread, so I'll quote it. In the dream Udinaas has of the Errant and Menandore arguing over who gets him, both of them refer to the Errant as an Elder God.


RG, chapter 12, p. 473-74 pb:

"This one is mine! My T'orrud Segul! Look at these dead - they must be saved, delivered, they must be - "

And now another voice souded, behind Udinaas, high, distant, a voice of the sky itself. "No, Errant. These dead are Forkrul Assail. Dead by your own hand. You cannot kill them to save them - "

"Dread witch, you know nothing! They're the only ones I can save!"

"The curse of Elder Gods - look at the blood on your hands. It is all of your own making. All of it."

[....]

It was the Errant's turn to laugh. "When last did you visit that... child, Menandore?"

"What does that mean?"

"Only this. He is grown now. His mind is his own. Not yours, Menandore. You are warned, and this time I demand nothing in return. Elder Gods, my dear, can on occasion know mercy."

She snorted - a gust of raw power. I have heard that. Fine propaganda, the morsel you feed to your starving, pathetic worshippers."

Nobody denies that the Errant is an Elder God, but he's not one of the old Elder Gods. He's not one of K'rull, Draconus and Nightchills brothers, he's not "created" by the birth of light, he's not an intelligence that wandered in the time before the holds... HE ASCENDED. He became a god when people started worshipping the Master of the Holds. Now this might have happened a hundred thousand years ago, or two hundred thousand years ago, but the Errant we know did not exist in the years of the sundering and the tiste exodus. We've seen no evidence of this, quite the contrary.

And I realise that Erikson will probably just flat out ruin this statement in DoD with one line, but that's my position and I'm sticking to it.

[Danyah]

Good, sticky the thread, there I am willing to bet for a beer. And no Carlsberg, serious quality Belgian beer.

[Ivan the terrible]

Why is there an assumption that the master of Holds had to be mortal...isn't Paran supposed to be unique...he easily could have been one of the creative urges who was alotted the Master of Holds position a la Paran.

I don't think the universe/azath demands mortality in the Master as a pre requisite.

As for not seeing any evidence of it, that's true if you ignore the self assertions...Also as for his lack of popularisation before his position as Master, it stands to reason if his aspect was chance...its more of a Back ground deity than say Darkness.

As for the idea that there is two rungs of elder Gods, I don't buy it.

Wasn't Hood around for the First Empire and before? Raest knew Hood and despite the fact he existed before man did he doesn't consider himself Elder. In the sense that he is strictly aligned with the younger pantheon and not an elemental.

I reckon the Elder Gods are a very exclusive club, Envy differentiates herself so age alone does qualify as Elder...I think its fair to believe the Errants self assertions. So i too will take that bet.

[Carnifex]

Maybe the "Elder" designation as currently used by the general populace has to do with drawing power from blood sacrifice rather than abstract worship?

The Errant had to retool himself a bit to get back into the "powered by worship" mode and there's plenty of reference to him gaining power via blood sacrifice. so that fits. Maybe the "Elder" gods predate the idea of organized worship and instead date back to the era when people spilled blood just to satisfy them and keep them away.

This fits with K'rul and probably Mael as well. More modern gods favor the worship method. Blood may be simpler and more powerful, but it's a dark thing.

[Wordmerchant]

This is probably going to get me stoned or trapped in an Azath, but I like the Errant character. My take on him is one of being a mythic archetype for balance. We repeatedly see the actions he causes to happen, but there is at least the implication in some of the Errant quotes that the underlying motivation seems unspecified. I do not find it too large a stretch to suggest that some of these 'reprehensible' actions cause a redistributing of balance that we are not privy to yet.

*ducks and awaits the onslaught*