[Ammanas]

For about the 9800th time since I've read and reread this series, I've found something new and weird.

p 11 BH
"And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sand, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral."

WTF is that all about? From her words descended..otataral?

Well, my latest crazy theory is Spite is the child of Draconus and the Otataral dragon. She was named Spite as in "to spite magic" Maybe Envy will be in for a rude awakening if they clash.

Also, does anyone believe that the sorcery imprisoning Dejim was not Elder?

[Venerus]

Ammanas;318866 said:

For about the 9800th time since I've read and reread this series, I've found something new and weird.

p 11 BH
"And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sand, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral."

WTF is that all about? From her words descended..otataral?

There are a few quotes at the start of tBH where Erikson explicitly says Otataral is the same thing as the force of entropy. I think he was putting to rest some of the debate on the boards. Or maybe he just felt like putting it in. Either way, stop using my sig for thread ideas!

[Silencer]

Makes sense given Cotillions' ideas on elements. And given all the discussion that the Otataral dragon is there to counter all the other dragons.
I don't think it's that specifically special. All it means is that Otataral is not just the ore - it can also be used like magic to negate magic.
There is no reason to suggest that Dejim's bindings were Elder - they were done in the time of the Human FE, after all.

[MTS]

umm...isn't it stated specifically by Menandore in MT in the conversation with Osserc that Spite is the daughter of Draconus by Sheltatha Lore, along with Envy? i dont seem to recall any connection between Draconus and the OD either...

[Lisheo]

Is it at all possible that Otataral doesnt just have to exist as an ore or as dust? I think that perhaps Otataral is the absolute negation of magic. Perhaps magic that leaves a physical mark becomes the ore, but maybe the dissolving of certain bindings simply released the POWER of Otataral.

[L'oric]

Are there any quotes as to why Otartoral does not work on Elder magic? Maybe an SE interview.

Does entropy not exist in the elder warrens?

What does that mean for Darkness, shadow, light warrens? Is chaos their only concern? With the holds now energized how much will that magic change/grow if it all?

I guess that since the CG came with the otatoral and he came after the Elder warrens were around every newer warren is affected and everything already in place is not. Would make sense then that his balance would be the elder gods. All those statues are his followers trying to find him?

hmmmmmmmm

[lasombra]

its simple. It is said Otataral is created when large amounts of sorcery is unleashed.All the nameless ones at that gathering unleashed their warrens.and it created ottaral that destroyd the wards binding Dejim.

[bhok'arala]

Ammanas;318866 said:

For about the 9800th time since I've read and reread this series, I've found something new and weird.

p 11 BH
"And from her words descended, through dead tree root, through stone and sand, dissolving ward after ward, a force of entropy, known to the world as otataral."

WTF is that all about? From her words descended..otataral?

Well, my latest crazy theory is Spite is the child of Draconus and the Otataral dragon. She was named Spite as in "to spite magic" Maybe Envy will be in for a rude awakening if they clash.

Also, does anyone believe that the sorcery imprisoning Dejim was not Elder?

so, that's why she's named envy. after all her prowess, she still can't negate the effects of magic

[Obdigore]

Lisheo;319241 said:

Is it at all possible that Otataral doesnt just have to exist as an ore or as dust? I think that perhaps Otataral is the absolute negation of magic. Perhaps magic that leaves a physical mark becomes the ore, but maybe the dissolving of certain bindings simply released the POWER of Otataral.

If I remember correctly, that statement was a guess by a mortal.

[D'rek]

Yes, the "massive amounts of sorcery yields otataral" was presented by Heboric as a theory concocted by some human. However, it has a lot of events that somewhat help to support it, so it's at least more likely then most theories.

Personally, I think there had to be a reason why all those Nameless Ones of differing race and warrens were present. Perhaps Otataral is (or is also) created by a combination of all warrens. Ooooooooh

[bhok'arala]

here's another theory for you to bicker about:

Otataral, I believe, was born of sorcery. If we hold that magic feeds on hidden energies, then it follows that there are limits to those energies. Sufficient unveiling of power that subsequently cascades out of control could well drain those life-forces dry. Further, it is said that the Elder warrens resist the deadening effect of otataral, suggesting that the world’s levels of energy are profoundly multilayered. One need only contemplate the life energy of corporeal flesh,
compared to the undeniable energy within an inanimate object, such as rock. Careless examination might suggest that the former is alive, whilst the latter is not. In this manner, perhaps otataral is not quite as negating as it would first appear . . .
Musings on the Physical Properties of the World
Tryrssan of Mott
(HoC, UK Trade, p.628)

[Aptorian]

Is he implying that an entire warren could be depleted? or is he just talking about lifeenergy like the denul healers on the Chain of Dogs?

Imagine draining an entire warren... that would be a bad day to be on that particular side of the world, in that world entirely I would think.

[bhok'arala]

imagine trying to drain the nascent... worse than global warming! and with all those melting glaciers too...

[buddhacat]

Ammanas;318866 said:

Well, my latest crazy theory is Spite is the child of Draconus and the Otataral dragon. She was named Spite as in "to spite magic" Maybe Envy will be in for a rude awakening if they clash.

Except that both are named to be daughters of Sheltatha Lore, IIRC. Also, they've been named as sisters, not half-sisters.

[lasombra]

bhok said:

here's another theory for you to bicker about:

Otataral, I believe, was born of sorcery. If we hold that magic feeds on hidden energies, then it follows that there are limits to those energies. Sufficient unveiling of power that subsequently cascades out of control could well drain those life-forces dry. Further, it is said that the Elder warrens resist the deadening effect of otataral, suggesting that the world’s levels of energy are profoundly multilayered. One need only contemplate the life energy of corporeal flesh,
compared to the undeniable energy within an inanimate object, such as rock. Careless examination might suggest that the former is alive, whilst the latter is not. In this manner, perhaps otataral is not quite as negating as it would first appear . . .
Musings on the Physical Properties of the World
Tryrssan of Mott
(HoC, UK Trade, p.628)

Those hidden energies are in the world. Like at Bas Fulmar in RG where the Awl battle the Letheri. The Letheri cannot use magic because all the life/magic/hidden energies where drained/used up.

[bhok'arala]

:bs:thanks for dashing our imagination...

now what are we going to bicker about... *sniffs*

[Ammanas]

Venerus;318872 said:

There are a few quotes at the start of tBH where Erikson explicitly says Otataral is the same thing as the force of entropy. I think he was putting to rest some of the debate on the boards. Or maybe he just felt like putting it in. Either way, stop using my sig for thread ideas!

Yeah, I know it is a "force of entropy" But prior to that, it was always shown as physical substances or objects, ore or dust or knives. If SE is now expanding the avenues by which entropy may influence magic to include words, I think that has interesting implications. Sadly, I've been at happy hour too long to elaborate further.

[ShadowOwl]

I have always wanted to know what QB and Kalam found out when they heated otataral and then threw magic at the hot dust. What did it do? They sure kept it a secret.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

What's interesting is that she invoked SD, which is the Warren of Dragons, the spreaders of magic. But from her words descended otataral. Hm...