[Shayed]

Nequam;314573 said:

Oh, and I hope you don't think that I believe every person who does something 'evil' had a repressed chilhood or somehting and can be excused of it. Just clearing that up, I was only using an example.

I agree. It only makes them being evil understandable. It doesn't make them or their actions less evil.

[Carnifex]

The relationship between Kallor and the CG must be tense. After all, the House of Chains is now occupied by the guy indirectly responsible for the whole mess hundreds of thousands of years ago.

I guess the CG doesn't hold a grudge.

[sphish]

Just saying that people felt he was evil enough that he had to be dealt with. The circle pulled down the foreign god (now the Crippled God) and 3 Elder Gods felt it necessary to remove him from power. That says something of Kallor.

[The Archivist]

*chuckles as he savours his wine and cheese* Well, young ones, might I suggest two villians who epitomizes the quiet thoughtful (but evil) dichotomy set by Erikson quite well. Shadowthrone (and Cotillon) who kill how many soldiers using the Hounds and steal away both Sorry/Apsalar and her father? Or how about the Empress who has remained unmentioned in this thread? A backstabber of the first water and a betrayer of friends yet her intentions are painted as honourable by herself and some others.

Indeed, I would argue one of the many points of this series is that evil is only perspective... and alas, good as well. Is the Errant evil or Paran? What would they sacrifice if push comes to shove to win? Or worse what would Tavore?

As a historian, I am keenly aware of the way that historical figures are portrayed both in their own period and later ones. Quite simply put, reputations change. Dear Lord, one of the most evil persons of our "times," Adolph Hitler was voted Time's Man of the Year. In general, it is fair to say that "truly" evil persons are rarely able to live long enough to reach their "full potential." Indeed, those that do are almost to a person those who feel themselves to be good. What makes them truly dangerous is their incredible ability at convincing populations of people of the need to believe in them and their methods.

So to finish ... if you want "true" evil look in an insane asylum or worse ... look closely at the person telling you that you must be a true believer in for it is the unalterable way .... it is there that you find something to truly fear.... the others ... we lock up or put down ... end of story.

*the old man puffs on his pipe and strokes his beard as his gentle snores start*

[Optimus Prime]

I like the absence of a "main baddy". I even like how I can pity the CG and even see his side of things. Part of the joy of this series is how everyone can literally be at anyone's throat.....anytime

And about Kallor being a wuss.....I'm thinking we've been led to see him as such and that he's due for some payback.....

[Gem Windcaster]

The Errant, The Errant, I tell you!! That's a bad guy for you. I loathe him. I would gladly carve him in little pieces and serve him to my worst enemy. (wait, would that mean I'd make him eat himself? That's happy thought )

The point of the bad guys in MBotF is that they're more realistic. Which makes them even more creepy imho. What's so scary about a completely evil bad guy? There's no point in that. The really scary ones you can reason with, manipulate, talk with over lunch. And then they go about pwning you, if you're not careful. I never thought Sauron was scary. Or any other obviously fictional evilness. Sephiroth=yawn. Now the CG is a completely scary bad guy. Because he makes sense. How do you fight something that accidentally was made an enemy of the entire world? It's not like he chose it. It reminds me of the 'we are our own worst enemies' theories. Scary as hell.

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Gem Windcaster;316360 said:

The point of the bad guys in MBotF is that they're more realistic. Which makes them even more creepy imho. What's so scary about a completely evil bad guy? There's no point in that. The really scary ones you can reason with, manipulate, talk with over lunch. And then they go about pwning you, if you're not careful. I never thought Sauron was scary. Or any other obviously fictional evilness. Sephiroth=yawn. Now the CG is a completely scary bad guy. Because he makes sense. How do you fight something that accidentally was made an enemy of the entire world? It's not like he chose it. It reminds me of the 'we are our own worst enemies' theories. Scary as hell.

Absolutely! An example is Captain Kindly, he actually scares the crap out of me. He casually makes threats to kill people and stuff, and I'm just waiting for him to scream and unleash his wrath.

The CG doesn't scare me, but he makes me worried because he knows a bit about everything. He even knew about Skinner and Cowl from the CrG, and that's interesting...

[Aptorian]

Ain said:

Absolutely! An example is Captain Kindly, he actually scares the crap out of me. He casually makes threats to kill people and stuff, and I'm just waiting for him to scream and unleash his wrath.

I don't actually think Kindly loses his temper. Ever. I think he just kills you if you annoy him enough.

Take for example when Kindly was annoyed with Limp using his limp to get sympathy. If Limp hadn't stopped limping, I think Kindly would just had broken it then and there. Just because.

[Raraku]

Wait a sec i thought that was his lieutenant that he was mad at.
Anyway all the characters are so real we can relate to them at some level or another
Its what totally changed my perspective of fantasy books
In one word ...... its brilliant

[Ain't_It_Just_]

Aptorian;316494 said:

I don't actually think Kindly loses his temper. Ever. I think he just kills you if you annoy him enough.

Yeah, I know that. But isn't it creepy reading about a guy who never seems to lose his temper, whilst still being a scary person?

[tiam]

I think Bidathal represents true evil in the series as we never see a positive viewpoint like say Poliels death scene in BH.

[Aptorian]

tiam;316647 said:

I think Bidathal represents true evil in the series as we never see a positive viewpoint like say Poliels death scene in BH.

Not true. While he is a sadist and a perv, he did what he did to Shaik/Felisin the Fatter for a reason. To shape them.

Also he was determined to save shadow. He was in a sense an enemy of the crippled god in the same way Hanan Mosagg would had been before he was corrupted.

[VampireGoat]

Ok

Maybe I have read this completely wrong, sorry coming into a thread 5 pages long late is already work enough as it is

After reading Cain's post im pretty sure you've all got the REALLY wrong idea.

Asking for a bad arse character like sephiroth (may he rot in commercial hell ) is not asking for an evil character. This is not asking for a dark lord, this isnt asking for the fantasy equivelent of satan.

It's asking for a guy whos really hard, takes shit from nobody and above all else isn't nice. Doesn't require a pure evil outlook....just a horrible one

You all know the types, sephiroths one example, darth vader is another, the witch king did a good job of fitting that bill in the lotr films as well.

Whats the part of those characters people like? Is it their complete utter dedication to the ways of evil? Or the fact they were bad arse guys who looked big tough and vicious and lived up to it to. Evil is just a technicality, and since anyone who doesn't abide by the usual moral standings we all adhere to, characters don't need to be evil to fit this bill, it's just easier to call someone who doesnt care a slaughters away evil.

Rake fits this bill to begin with. Sephiroth WAS my basis of building Rakes image, even now I still picture Rake in a long flappy coat, regardless of how it wouldn't fit. At first glance I read about this guy who was big, gave off some sort of power aura, was jet black from tip to toe, clothes too(somehow I overlooked the silver hair, not sure how). To top it off he wields this massive black sword that has chains that drag souls into what at first sounds like a portable hell.

Rakes cool thats final. However later he develops what we see as a good side, now I loved that to but I can see how that would put some people off, the previous stone cold hard arse suddenly cares. It's not the same character type anymore. Not that I personally care, good guy rake suits me but I undestand the desire for those awe inspiring fearsome characters everyone runs from.

Now technically the series is littered with them, but it keep either killing them in sudden random ways or they develope a heart, destroys the image somewhat. Unless it's Karsa who I didn't like from the begining and it was well the 'chill' factor that has slowly redeemed him for me.

However if someone should want a consistantly nasty mega hard arse like say Draconus was ment to be back in the day or Silchas post azath release pre-BB mauling, then why not?

By the reading of this thread I can see Cain isn't popular for his opinion, not followed ALL posts but I get a good feeling by the vibe certain people in this thread have given off, most of that rather epic negative rep came from this thread.

Did it really warrant all that? Of course fucking not....

[phart]

Aptorian;313192 said:

With the exception of the reputation of the KCCM Matrons, Jaghut Tyrants are the single most powerfull beings in existance. Raest was a particularly nasty one of it's kind but we hear in NoK that Jhenna would had been just as terrifying.

Is that assertion referenced as fact, nothing i have read in the books so far would lend me to make that statement with such 100% conviction, in fact i cannot recall if Gothos was a Tyrant but his ritual is impressive, much more impressive than any other Jaghut.

In fact the single most powerful entity in existence is actually a malazan sapper with a cusser to be honest.

[Optimus Prime]

Actually, there really isn't a "most powerful" entity in this series, that's what makes it so awesome. Tyrants were supposedly the most powerful, but we'll never really know if Rake could've taken Raest. Silchas got owned by a munition, but he didn't really know what it was so is it fair to say he would've lost had he not been imprisoned for thousands of years?

Anybody can own anyone at anytime, that's the beauty of MBotF.

[phart]

Aptorian;314342 said:

I think you're about to completely derail your own thread here, if people get into that discussion

Very few people exist or have ever existed that are "pure evil". The only one I can actually think of is that "ice man" guy that worked for the mob in the United states.

Hitler, Stalin, etc. aren't pure evil. They just did things that are pretty much unimaginable by our standards of ethics and moral today. They were merely building on ideas and trends that existed everywhere in the western world at the time. Euthansia, human experiments, genocide and persecution wasn't something they invented in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. They were ideas that were toyed with everywhere.

If you look at the Malazan world, there isn't really any characters that are motivated by "pure evil" like for example Shai'tan/Ba'alzamon from WoT or Sauron from lotR.

The CG is broken and in pain. He wants deaths release or to break the world and let everyone feel the pain that it's inhabitants cause him. He's insane and acts like it. For him it's either to die or be realed.

Kallor strives to rule and acts like any medieval king might be expected. I'm actually counting on Erikson to reveal more on the High Kinds personality in TtH.

Korbolo Dom belives that he could be a better First Sword or even Emperor and therefore he does what he does to reach his goal.

Mallick Rel want to destroy the empire for what it did to his people, and possibly he also just wants to control the empire.

Panion. Driven by grief and pain.

Rhulad. Driven by ambition and blind idealism.

In most creatures and realistic characters, you can find white in the dark. A reason for why they are like they are. Redeeming qualities etc.

Evil is a human construct to describe many things, it is subjective and has no definite physical property it can be measured against, like Ceasium for seconds or the kilo in france for the well... kilo.

If humans didn't exist i doubt the notion of evil would exist, much like the same way if humans didn't exist neither would calculus, but one is a method that is proven, the other descriptive. As a result one person may think that something is pure evil someone may not, it is impossible to demonstrably prove one is right the other is wrong because there is no physcial property to measure it against. We can say who is the tallest by measuring, can we say who is most honest?

So i think pure evil exists for some and not for others, and unless someone wants to show me a definitive ruler or measuring device for it, then it will only be decided by debating in a subjective matter.

[phart]

Xander;316973 said:

Actually, there really isn't a "most powerful" entity in this series, that's what makes it so awesome. Tyrants were supposedly the most powerful, but we'll never really know if Rake could've taken Raest. Silchas got owned by a munition, but he didn't really know what it was so is it fair to say he would've lost had he not been imprisoned for thousands of years?

Anybody can own anyone at anytime, that's the beauty of MBotF.

Word, i box and to an extent it is the same in boxing, and more so in fatal sports, a slip, a lack of form for whatever reason, very rarely does a sportsman win every contest, and i assume that would translate. Obviosuly i would never beat Mike Tyson, but a guy at my club we are almost 50/50 in sparring.

[Aptorian]

phart;316972 said:

Is that assertion referenced as fact, nothing i have read in the books so far would lend me to make that statement with such 100% conviction, in fact i cannot recall if Gothos was a Tyrant but his ritual is impressive, much more impressive than any other Jaghut.

In fact the single most powerful entity in existence is actually a malazan sapper with a cusser to be honest.

Raest is described as a Tyrant that was exceptionally cruel/terrible, even compared to other Tyrants. It took the combined efforts of both Jaghut and T'lan Imass to imprison him.

Both Raest and Jhenna talk of enslaving entire races, conquering continets and carving out kingdoms.

Raest much weakened with out the majority of his power fends off 4 soletaken and a pure blood eleint. He takes the full burst of all Quicks warrens and a direct hit from a cusser and doesn't slow down. All without his powers in the finnest.

Rake achknowledges that he probably won't be able to stop Raest if he gets the finnest. He will have to count on other powers to take the Jaghut after he falls.

Raest is without a doubt the strongest individual we've seen or heard talk off in the series to date. Of course we've not seen an Elder God go ballistic yet.

[Gem Windcaster]

Xander;316973 said:

Anybody can own anyone at anytime, that's the beauty of MBotF.

I so agree with that, I could kiss you.


- Gem, wait what...?

[Dancer+]

I'll arrange the wedding. I'm a priest (of Shadow).

Apt is dead on about Raest's power levels, if only he were female and good looking, and I wasn't attached; I would actually consider kissing him.