[Cain]

This being my favorite series I have ever read...I mean I put black company down immediately because it came no-where near the complex and imaginative story of MBotF. Just reading the first few chapters I knew it was not up on par with the kinds of Epic-Fantasy-sci-fi I like to read. Now that being said, I had one and one only complaint/criticism for Erikson's work.

His lack of a Malevolent, Maniacal badass badguys. It started with Rake, I thought he was going to be like the Sephiroth of this story and be this indomitable badass who walks through all the good guys like nothing with his immense power. But hes got agendas and a moral compass. Too much of a damned good guy for my taste (even though he is my favorite character of them all) But we have yet to see a character who is just this downright Tyrannical, hardcore powerful figure.

Raest was an exception but how fast did he go down hmm? Granted it was apart of the storyline and everyone has a weakness (convergence of power and all that) I just think he needs to add some more compeltely evil characters in his stories. Now I know its a bit too late in the story arc, but just like the sudden appearance of Redmask perhaps we can see the emergence of a purely evil ascendant come out of nowhere in this one as well.

Yes we have the CG but come on, he has rare screen time and takes a personal hand in nothing. And well...hes a god.

p.s. Sorry if this post looks like crap, but Im at work and trying not to get caught doing this, Im in the military so its push-ups if I do : P

[Dancer+]

How about Kallor, Kilmandros, Karsa, Draconus? All of these characters are or were somewhat dark at some point.

I don't think anyone is evil for the sake of being evil as such, Raest is one of the only pure "black" characters. We have characters who are entirely seducted by Greed; Karos Invictad, Mallick Rel, Korbolo Dom etc.

The closest thing to Sephiroth is Kallor.

[Cain]

I forgot to add Kallor and the Pannion Seer to ones weve already seen but well...Kallor is a wuss when it comes down to one on one from what weve seen so far, and the Seer also fell really easy.

[Cain]

Dancer;313187 said:

How about Kallor, Kilmandros, Karsa, Draconus? All of these characters are or were somewhat dark at some point.

I don't think anyone is evil for the sake of being evil as such, Raest is one of the only pure "black" characters. We have characters who are entirely seducted by Greed; Karos Invictad, Mallick Rel, Korbolo Dom etc.

The closest thing to Sephiroth is Kallor.

Yeah but the last ones you mentioned have no real power besides being tactical, using their intelligence to get where they are, no real pure personal power.
Draconus is down and out in his own sword and he didnt seem like all that evil to me. Karsa ends up being likeable. And Kilmandros is in another realm.

[Aptorian]

I think the lack of "Sephiroth" level badass "evil" ascendants walking about, is because the rest of the ascendants/pantheon gods won't allow it.

With the exception of the reputation of the KCCM Matrons, Jaghut Tyrants are the single most powerfull beings in existance. Raest was a particularly nasty one of it's kind but we hear in NoK that Jhenna would had been just as terrifying.

At the notion of the Tyrant being released an Azath emerged, Rake prepared to intercept it and when or if he failed other ascendants would have arrived to slay or bind Raest once again.

That's how the Malazan world works. Deals are brokered. Agreements are made. Everyone stays nice and "low key" and a convergence wont be needed to shish kebab your ass. Make a nuissance of yourself and what happened to Panion or Raest will be your fate.

[Raraku]

One Arms host was reduced to 800 by the time the siege ended.
Also Look at the people attacking it : the Malazans known for their awesome tactics and other things, Envy, the Segulah 3rd, the 1st Sword of the T'lan Imass, Moonspawn, Buttloads of Tiste Andii, and the Grey Swords and Gruntles army. Although to go back to the discussion thePannion Seer wasnt totally black at heart. Just a man with a terrible childhood who was given power and corrupted by the Crippled God.
I think till now Kallor is the only person who is kinda wholly evil.

[O'lee]

I don't see why you would desire to have such a dark and evil character in the books. I like the way things are now, no-one is pure evil and no-one is pure good. It reflects the real world just perfectly. Yes, we had some evil characters during our history, but I don't think any of the was as evil as a lot of the bad guys in different fiction. Was Hitler, Mao, Stalin as evil as Sauron, Shaitan or Satan? They were horrendous, but probably nice against their closest friends.

[L'oric]

I think the lack of an "Evil" badass was or seems to be intentional. There is no Dark One, there is no Mad god, there is none of the usual insert ultimate evil person here.

There is a bunch of people, petty, small-minded, with large egos, evil, and at times all too "human." Some are self serving wretches and most are not the type that you would want to be friends with. There is also apart from a select few ie Paran, Itokhan, Whiskeyjack, Brys, and a few others who are without personality faults, they may make mistakes but they seem to have been of the honest variety. So no ultimate good guy either. No one wearing black facing off against someone in white with grenados in and warrens at hand.

I think that is one of the most appealing things about the series and something that will be copied in many fantasy series from here on out. Inject these fantasy worlds with as much reality and see what happens.

About Kallor. I do not know if Whiskeyjack should have been on par with Kallor or not, I am not the writer it made for a great storyline and I was/am happy with the way things went but.... Kallor devastated what was to become the Imperial Warren in opposition to 3 Elder Gods at the height of their powers! Now in the eons that have followed it is entirely possible that Kallor has diminished significantly much as the three Elder gods that opposed him seem to have diminished but...I feel his "evilness" has just been pushed into the back burner.

[Cain]

O said:

I don't see why you would desire to have such a dark and evil character in the books. I like the way things are now, no-one is pure evil and no-one is pure good. It reflects the real world just perfectly. Yes, we had some evil characters during our history, but I don't think any of the was as evil as a lot of the bad guys in different fiction. Was Hitler, Mao, Stalin as evil as Sauron, Shaitan or Satan? They were horrendous, but probably nice against their closest friends.

Because, (Not that there is a lack of excitement anywhere in his books right now or anything) but it does add some more flavor when you have these Tyrannical bastards that outwit and out fight the good guys every now and then. There has been no evil constant in the series and the playing field is always shifting. I need one singular entity to come to the forefront and me saying, "Wow, this guy is freakin badass" And as Apt said, yeah they are gonna come at you like spider-monkeys when you use your power for your own evil purposes.
But with how many supremely powerful beings there are walking about in our favorite world im suprised none are like. "Screw these spiderwebs we weave im just going to cut right through them."

[Abyss]

There are no lack of powerhouses in the series, and even the relatively 'good' ones aren't necessarily on the same side - see Rake and Shadowthrone's confrontation in GotM.

I can't say i miss having an evil overlord type. We have ample 'badguys', the CG obviously, then Kallor and Gethol come to mind. Dom and Rel. Karsa could go either way. I'm not sold on Krul or Draconus as the cuddly nice types they seem to be either. Hell, Leoman was arguably a hero up until he sent a few thousand drug addled suicide bombers up against the 14th.

I like having a good villain in a story. But the whole good vs evil archetype thing is common.There are enough fantasy sagas out there with one evil power trying to conquer the world (see Feist, Eddings, Stackpole, Bakker even...). This one is different in a good (better) way.

All of which is to say, i don't need "one singular entity to come to the forefront". I see what you're saying, but i think the series is stronger without having one master boss that needs to be beaten at the end of every [linet] level [/linet] book.

- Abyss, happy with shades of grey.

[Cain]

Abyss;313228 said:

There are no lack of powerhouses in the series, and even the relatively 'good' ones aren't necessarily on the same side - see Rake and Shadowthrone's confrontation in GotM.

I can't say i miss having an evil overlord type. We have ample 'badguys', the CG obviously, then Kallor and Gethol come to mind. Dom and Rel. Karsa could go either way. I'm not sold on Krul or Draconus as the cuddly nice types they seem to be either. Hell, Leoman was arguably a hero up until he sent a few thousand drug addled suicide bombers up against the 14th.

I like having a good villain in a story. But the whole good vs evil archetype thing is common.There are enough fantasy sagas out there with one evil power trying to conquer the world (see Feist, Eddings, Stackpole, Bakker even...). This one is different in a good (better) way.

All of which is to say, i don't need "one singular entity to come to the forefront". I see what you're saying, but i think the series is stronger without having one master boss that needs to be beaten at the end of every [linet] level [/linet] book.

- Abyss, happy with shades of grey.

Yeah I completely understand what your saying and that is indeed what makes this story good, its intracacy. But still...he doesn't even really need to come out and affect the main story-line just like...a shadowy figure that Silchas, Rake, and all the other powerful ascendants only speak about in whispers and would rather steer clear of. : P Maybe the overlord of those Demons they always use or something. I dunno. Just give me what I want and ill go away!!! I mean, because you have to think from time to time what it would be like if Rake just all the sudden flipped out and started tearing across the land dropping everybody.....Badass : P

Edit: Oh oh, oh. I got it!! You guys mentioned in another thread about Rakes demise. I mean, we saw him take on some pretty hardcore stuff, demons, coalitions of mages etc. If he dies it has to be to someone more powerful than he. Enter my Sephirothesque big bad badass!

[Coco with marshmallows]

nah, i maintain that if rake snuffs it, it'll be because someone gets the drop on him, like what happened to Trull.

[Aptorian]

Envy will flash her boobs at Rake and he'll stumble and fall down a flight of stairs...

sad really.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Aptorian;313240 said:

Togg will flash her boobs at Rake and he'll stumble and fall down a flight of stairs...

sad really.

fixed

[Cain]

I mean, lets face it folks. Not that this is like, really the most important thing in the world or anything : P.....but like, noone we have seen so far in MBotF is going to make ANY top villians of all time list. : ( Which kinda makes me sad.

[Aptorian]

You don't think the Crippled God is pretty damn epic so far?

[Cain]

Aptorian;313252 said:

You don't think the Crippled God is pretty damn epic so far?

Meh. Yes and No. He is someone we rarely see much of, even though he is supposed to be the main antagonist for the entire story, Im just not that impressed with him. What has he done? Who is his legion? He has a rebellious Knight of Chains who refuses his title and would probablly attempt to kill the CG if he could, Hes got Kallor who really hasn't impressed me so far and Rhulad is actually fairly weak in both power and swordsmanship skill. The CG himself isn't nearly as intruiging as say Shadowthrone.

[Abyss]

Cain;313232 said:

... I mean, because you have to think from time to time what it would be like if Rake just all the sudden flipped out and started tearing across the land dropping everybody..

In GotM, Rake himself notes he probably couldn't take ST and the Hounds, moreso if Cotillion became involved. Silchas, arguably Rake's equal or close to it (no, that's not an invite to a ho'd win) got a serious smack from three humans (albeit Bridgeburners).

No one in this series is unstoppable, with the possible exception, if you believe the hype, of the Crippled God.

Cain;313250 said:

I mean, lets face it folks. Not that this is like, really the most important thing in the world or anything : P.....but like, noone we have seen so far in MBotF is going to make ANY top villians of all time list. : ( Which kinda makes me sad.

Cain;313267 said:

...The CG himself isn't nearly as intruiging as say Shadowthrone.

I have to point out that the CG had two empires and a cult that we know of, and who knows how many that we don't. He has his own House in the Deck. What did Sauron do? Gather a bunch of undead kings and some disposable orcs.

- Abyss, ...and don't even get me started on that 'i just wanna be loved' whuss Torak...

[L'oric]

Abyss;313282 said:

In GotM, Rake himself notes he probably couldn't take ST and the Hounds, moreso if Cotillion became involved. Silchas, arguably Rake's equal or close to it (no, that's not an invite to a ho'd win) got a serious smack from three humans (albeit Bridgeburners).

Ooo any idea where the Rake quote is? Maybe even a place in the story? I seem to remember him being nonchalant about the 7 hounds in front of him.

Silchas against Warren magic and 2 cussers. I bet you he wont try to catch another crossbow bolt aimed at him. That was a live and learn experience that he survived. Poor guy does not have Rake's experence with the warrens and the likes of the moranth munitions.

PS Torak...Eddings ability was in his characters, not his descriptions or his storylines which were amazingly similiar. The dialougues between the core group was his strength and carried his books. Beldin is an ll time favorite.

[Pig Iron]

Don't think SE is really sold on the whole "Evil Overlord" thing. Then again, needing blood sacrifices seem to be more or less the definition of an Elder God in the series so depending on your standards they could all be considered evil.