[polishgenius]

lord of tragedy;322733 said:

pales now simply because people like erikson and bakker have raised the bar.

I don't think it's that - I prefer Erikson to Martin, but qualitywise I reckon they're on a par, that's just my preference. And I read Martin later, but still thought he's something special.


He just seems to be losing control of the pacing a bit as the series goes on. Which is why I'm happy that he's taking the time to get Dance right.

[Werthead]

Xander;322166 said:

Excellent. This all sounds like GRRM is going to come on strong......this makes me very happy.

@Wert

Spoiler

Does Rickon have a PoV? Or is he still way too young?

Spoiler

No. GRRM has ruled using him as a POV character due to his age. He finds Bran challenging enough and Bran is 5-6 years older than Rickon.

[QuickTidal]

Kulp Diet;322293 said:

Actually, its quite the opposite. He got the shaft his whole life, getting screwed over by his family. Everybody always assumed he was evil and treacherous precisely becasue he was a dwarf. Even so he defended King's Landing brilliantly until he was betrayed and nearly killed. When he wakes up with half his face missing, no one even gives him credit for his successful tactics, let alone a word of "thanks.

So he hits the breaking point and shoots his father on the crapper. Can't say I blame him. And its one of the most bitchin' scenes in all the books.

I dunno, I guess I didn't exactly look at it in those specific terms. I really do think he is evil in the long run.....I'm not sure why. Maybe because we are meant to sympathize with him because of all the aforementioned stuff....but I don't. I'm very wary of him. He's gotten screwed by his family, but his answer is to screw everyone around him back (including people who don't deserve it).....maybe it's that part I dislike.

[Cause]

Sansa is stupid but shes eleven. He has explained why she is like that and for a lady raised in a castle on stories and by her mother who she emulates and shelters her we can see why she thinks all knights good. Obviously if she saw them killing people left right and centre in front of her eyes she is going to come to reality fast

[Terez]

Except that Arya was raised the same as she was and she's not stupid...

[Werthead]

Briar King;323600 said:

I really hope that Arya and Jon's reunion happens soon.

I will have to go back and reread these books as I have forgotten alot. For Ex: I barely remember Tyrion killing his father and I don't remember him killing Shae. What did he take her out for?

Tyrion idolised Shae throughout the first two-and-a-half novels and trusted her completely, and went to extreme lengths to protect her from Tywin and Cersei. So when she betrayed and insulted him at the trial, he wasn't too impressed. He probably could have understood it (for her wanting to save her life), but those elements combined with finding her in his father's bed pushed him over the edge.

[paladin]

she was sleeping with tywin. that was enough.

[Terez]

Maybe this will help you remember, Briar King:

Spoiler

Tyrion was on trial for Joffrey's murder, thanks to Cersei. Shae was brought in as a witness against him, and says that Tyrion and Sansa plotted it together (she was Sansa's maid, a ploy by Tyrion to keep her close and safe), and she gave all sorts of details about their sex life and twisted them, such as saying that Tyrion made her call him "My giant of Lannister" when in reality that was her idea. Etc. Tyrion is in a cell, and Jaime lets him out and shows him to the tunnels where Varys is waiting to help him escape. On the way through the tunnels, Tyrion realizes that they are underneath the Tower of the Hand, and manages to get Varys to tell him how to get up to his former chambers, which are now his father's chambers. Inside, he finds Shae naked in his father's bed, wearing only the chain of hands around her neck. She tries to talk her way out of what she did to betray him, and calls him "my giant of Lannister" again, and that was the last straw for Tyrion. He strangled her with the chain of hands, and picked up a crossbow and shot his father who was sitting on the john, and then heads back out the way he came.

[Shurque's biatch]

Terez;323632 said:

Maybe this will help you remember, Briar King:

Spoiler

Tyrion was on trial for Joffrey's murder, thanks to Cersei. Shae was brought in as a witness against him, and says that Tyrion and Sansa plotted it together (she was Sansa's maid, a ploy by Tyrion to keep her close and safe), and she gave all sorts of details about their sex life and twisted them, such as saying that Tyrion made her call him "My giant of Lannister" when in reality that was her idea. Etc. Tyrion is in a cell, and Jaime lets him out and shows him to the tunnels where Varys is waiting to help him escape. On the way through the tunnels, Tyrion realizes that they are underneath the Tower of the Hand, and manages to get Varys to tell him how to get up to his former chambers, which are now his father's chambers. Inside, he finds Shae naked in his father's bed, wearing only the chain of hands around her neck. She tries to talk her way out of what she did to betray him, and calls him "my giant of Lannister" again, and that was the last straw for Tyrion. He strangled her with the chain of hands, and picked up a crossbow and shot his father who was sitting on the john, and then heads back out the way he came.

I remember having to read those parts at least twice, even on the second (third?) re-read. The action is happening so fast and I get so into the book that I missed the whole significance of the cold, gold hands. Martin is so sneaky in playing to your assumptions that you can never be sure who is dead and if they really are dead. The bloody wedding still gives me fits trying to figure out who did what and how Tyrion got blamed. Hmm, guess it is about time for a reread again, good thing I still have till September (if you *trust* Amazon) or more likely Next spring.

[Terez]

Well, the bloody wedding was Edmure's wedding, not Joffrey's. But here's what happened at Joffrey's:

Spoiler

Littlefinger cooked up a deal with the Highgarden grandmother...the one they call the Queen of Thorns (don't remember her name, though it started with an O...Olena?). Sansa's pearl cap that she was told by Dontos to wear that evening had a capsule of poison on it, disguised as a pearl. Olena or whatever her name was removed it when she was straightening Sansa's cap, and poisoned Joff's food (presumably not the wine, since Margaery drank it also). All of this was revealed when Littlefinger got his hands on Sansa. Tyrion was blamed for it by Cersei because of the promise/threat he had made to her when she captured Alayaya (who was helping him hide his visits to Shae - he would go to her in the whorehouse and then sneak out of her room through the secret passages, so Cersei thought Alayaya was his whore) - that one day when she thought herself safe and happy, he would turn her joy to ashes in her mouth or something. And of course Cersei got plenty of "witnesses" against Tyrion, none of whom actually saw Tyrion do anything, obviously. Tyrion told Jaime later that he had done it, but he was lying, trying to hurt Jaime.

[Kulp Diet]

Terez;323593 said:

Except that Arya was raised the same as she was and she's not stupid...

Arya and Sansa just have different personalities. Its as simple as that. The nurture can be the same, but the nature can trump. I was never sure about nature/nurture until I hade 2 daughters 14 months apart. One is a Sansa, one is an Arya.

[Terez]

paladin;323629 said:

she was sleeping with tywin. that was enough.

I would say that had almost nothing to do with why Tyrion killed Shae.

[Kulp Diet]

Terez;323674 said:

Well, the bloody wedding was Edmure's wedding, not Joffrey's. But here's what happened at Joffrey's:

Spoiler

Littlefinger cooked up a deal with the Highgarden grandmother...the one they call the Queen of Thorns (don't remember her name, though it started with an O...Olena?). Sansa's pearl cap that she was told by Dontos to wear that evening had a capsule of poison on it, disguised as a pearl. Olena or whatever her name was removed it when she was straightening Sansa's cap, and poisoned Joff's food (presumably not the wine, since Margaery drank it also). All of this was revealed when Littlefinger got his hands on Sansa. Tyrion was blamed for it by Cersei because of the promise/threat he had made to her when she captured Alayaya (who was helping him hide his visits to Shae - he would go to her in the whorehouse and then sneak out of her room through the secret passages, so Cersei thought Alayaya was his whore) - that one day when she thought herself safe and happy, he would turn her joy to ashes in her mouth or something. And of course Cersei got plenty of "witnesses" against Tyrion, none of whom actually saw Tyrion do anything, obviously. Tyrion told Jaime later that he had done it, but he was lying, trying to hurt Jaime.

Which is why I'm convinced the Queen of Thorns is behind Cersei's current predicament. She is just that slick as to set up Cersei through Margaery. You just don't mess with that old bitch.

[Terez]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. I think she's a good woman - probably the brightest of the Highgardens. She's even bright enough to know that Mace is a dunce.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Terez;323632 said:

Maybe this will help you remember, Briar King:

Spoiler

Tyrion was on trial for Joffrey's murder, thanks to Cersei. Shae was brought in as a witness against him, and says that Tyrion and Sansa plotted it together (she was Sansa's maid, a ploy by Tyrion to keep her close and safe), and she gave all sorts of details about their sex life and twisted them, such as saying that Tyrion made her call him "My giant of Lannister" when in reality that was her idea. Etc. Tyrion is in a cell, and Jaime lets him out and shows him to the tunnels where Varys is waiting to help him escape. On the way through the tunnels, Tyrion realizes that they are underneath the Tower of the Hand, and manages to get Varys to tell him how to get up to his former chambers, which are now his father's chambers. Inside, he finds Shae naked in his father's bed, wearing only the chain of hands around her neck. She tries to talk her way out of what she did to betray him, and calls him "my giant of Lannister" again, and that was the last straw for Tyrion. He strangled her with the chain of hands, and picked up a crossbow and shot his father who was sitting on the john, and then heads back out the way he came.

If it doesn't nothing short of a personal call from Martin to explain things will

[paladin]

Terez;323679 said:

I would say that had almost nothing to do with why Tyrion killed Shae.

i would think the other way around. he had a huge infatuation for her and perhaps she said what she said to stay alive, but her naked in tywins bed just flipped his lid and committed a crime of passion. its not like we had any inclination that he was going to murder her for her actions eh?

[Kulp Diet]

paladin;323697 said:

i would think the other way around. he had a huge infatuation for her and perhaps she said what she said to stay alive, but her naked in tywins bed just flipped his lid and committed a crime of passion. its not like we had any inclination that he was going to murder her for her actions eh?

I think its academic as he most likely fantacised about killing both of them from in his dungeon cell.

However, I'd say the emotions you describe probably had more to do with his killing Tywin. Once again, Tywin has his way with a whore Tyrion cared about. If anything is the last straw, its the repeating history of Tyrion's most hurtfull memory.

[Terez]

It wasn't her being naked in his father's bed that made him flip - it was her calling him "my giant of Lannister" again that made him flip, because it brought her betrayal immediately to mind again.

[acesn8s]

Terez;323725 said:

It wasn't her being naked in his father's bed that made him flip - it was her calling him "my giant of Lannister" again that made him flip, because it brought her betrayal immediately to mind again.

Couple with the fact that she was in his father's bed . . . a father who swore that Tyrion would never, ever inherit the Rock. A father who put an end to Tyrion's first marriage, then forced the girl to lay with his entire army (who each paid for).

There were just a slew of bad memories for Tyrion to have to endure after escaping the cells.

[Terez]

Do you really think that her being there in his father's bed was any worse than what she said about him at the trial? At that point, the fact that she was in Tywin's bed was just more of the same...no more than you would expect out of the whore she proved she was at the trial. She could have saved her own life easily without actually using some bit of truth to wound him so deeply as she did.